How do non-denominational Christians pick a church?

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SonofMonica said:
You’re creating a false dichotomy. In addition to prophetic and priestly authority, he was also acting under the command of an angel, so you can add angelic authority, as well as authority obtained directly from the Trinity, so you can add trinitarian authority. But remember, this guy was consecrated by a priest from birth. You can’t take the priesthood out of the equation.
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No. No. You are missing the point completely. You do not do things under Angelic authority. And I am not creating any dichotomy. I am trying to teach about authority. There is only one authority. I am not parsing authority.
 
Xavierlives said:
But John is not working as a priest, right? He is working under a prophetic authority not a priest’s authority. Exodus 28 is nice, but he is wearing Camelhair not fine linens of blue and gold.
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He is working out his priesthood in a different way (and we see Samson, Samuel, Elijah, and others in the Old Testament who also worked out their priesthood in this way - it’s not something “invented” by John the Baptist, but a legitimate element of the tradition from which he comes.
God has him doing this for a reason.
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Right. 👍 Which is why God set it up so that his authority to do so would be recognizable to those to whom he was meant to be ministering.

If he had just been some random guy, who would have listened to him? Do you stand and listen to every random homeless guy that accosts you on the street with “a message from God”? Or do you look to those who have what looks to you like the proper authority to bring you messages from God (Pastors of churches, Sunday School teachers, etc.)?
 
jmcrae said:
He is working out his priesthood in a different way (and we see Samson, Samuel, Elijah, and others in the Old Testament who also worked out their priesthood in this way - it’s not something “invented” by John the Baptist, but a legitimate element of the tradition from which he comes.

Right. 👍 Which is why God set it up so that his authority to do so would be recognizable to those to whom he was meant to be ministering.
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OOo-Ooo! I knew it would happen! We Have a winner! It is all under God’s authority!
jmcrae said:
If he had just been some random guy, who would have listened to him? Do you stand and listen to every random homeless guy that accosts you on the street with “a message from God”? Or do you look to those who have what looks to you like the proper authority to bring you messages from God (Pastors of churches, Sunday School teachers, etc.)?
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Ok. So we are back where we started, John the Baptist was under God’s authority. What is God’s Authority? And don’t try to paint me into a corner and say God doesn’t have authority here, that’s not where we are going. But think about “earthly authorities” and “spiritual authorities” and tell me about God’s authority.
 
Xavierlives said:
OOo-Ooo! I knew it would happen! We Have a winner! It is all under God’s authority!

Ok. So we are back where we started, John the Baptist was under God’s authority. What is God’s Authority? And don’t try to paint me into a corner and say God doesn’t have authority here, that’s not where we are going. But think about “earthly authorities” and “spiritual authorities” and tell me about God’s authority.
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Great there guy!!!
 
Xavierlives said:
OOo-Ooo! I knew it would happen! We Have a winner! It is all under God’s authority!

Ok. So we are back where we started, John the Baptist was under God’s authority. What is God’s Authority? And don’t try to paint me into a corner and say God doesn’t have authority here, that’s not where we are going. But think about “earthly authorities” and “spiritual authorities” and tell me about God’s authority.
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Okay - here’s how authority works:
  1. God is in authority over everything.
  2. God transmits His authority over certain things to certain people. Parents receive authority from God over their children, to tell them what to do, and to raise them up to be good citizens of their country and to be good Christians. Governments receive authority from God to protect the common good of society. Anyone who creates something has authority from God over that thing - for example, a business man has authority over his business and all of the work done in it; an artist has authority over his studio and all of the work done in it, etc. The Church has the authority that was given by Christ to the Apostles.
  3. These people can transmit their authority to others by various means - for example, a business man can appoint branch managers to look after the day to day affairs of the various branches of his business. These managers in their turn can hire secretaries, accountants, and various kinds of workers to do the work of the business. A parent can transfer her authority to her child’s teachers, coaches, and mentors, and to any babysitters that she happens to hire. She can also transmit authority to her older children, to take care of her younger children. The Apostles transmit their authority to the Bishops, who in turn have the authority (given to them by the Apostles) to ordain other Bishops.
So, when we say that a human being has authority, we are not negating God’s authority, or saying that God has no authority here. Rather, we are saying that God has authorized that person to be the one who tells us what God’s will is, in a particular dimension of our lives.

So, you can actually make a diagram that shows where authority comes from.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
Xavierlives said:
Oh that line is Jesus?
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Jesus is God.

I have added in Scripture verses, to help you see how each of these things is made known to us in the Scriptures. (You might have to hit “refresh” to get the new version of the diagram to load in.)
 
Xavierlives said:
It is bunk because you got your statistics from what source, Christiandom Encyclopedia?
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As opposed to the more scholarly source you provided which was–oh, wait, you only gave your statistic achieved via something akin to osmosis! 😃
I still can reject your numbers, because they fishy. Instead I tried to use your number and a good estimate of protestants. That number is 800,000,000. 5% of that is 40,000,000. 40,000,000 /39,990 = roughly 1,000.
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What are you trying to say here? It sounds like random numbers to me. 5%? 800,000,00? :confused:
As for proving your point, nothing is proven. I provided numbers to show how 40,000 denominations is a hokie number taken out of a brown paper bag, to serve some purpose of division.
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Again, do you have a source for this? I’ve provided you with mine. 👍
 
Xavierlives said:
As for proving your point, nothing is proven. I provided numbers to show how 40,000 denominations is a hokie number taken out of a brown paper bag, to serve some purpose of division.
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Here’s MORE!!

Source here; (bold and BB codes by PRmerger}
Email from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary “Global Christianity” to Ms. XXX SFO (Secular Franciscan Order)
author of Lamp Unto My Feet to be published by PublishAmerica
Received 9/28/2007 11:17 a.m. MST
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Hello Ms. XXX,
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Thank you for your inquiry.[SIGN] I can assure you that the figure of 39,000 is in no way inflated.[/SIGN] This number represents our most current, up-to-date data. As we are constantly updating this figure, it is not published in print form. The figure of 33,800 from the year 2000 was printed in our book World Christian Trends, (Pasadena, CA: William Carey Library, 2001). Part 12 of World Christian Trends (WCT), Table 12-1 gives figures of denominational totals for all 238 countries of the world. These figures are also represented graphically in WCT on page 917, Global Map 14. The definition for denominations used in WCT, and also in our publication World Christian Encyclopedia (Oxford, 2001) is as follows:
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“Any agency consisting of a number of congregations or churches voluntarily aligning themselves with it. As a statistical unit in this survey, a ‘denomination’ always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries.”
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More precise listings of denominations can be found in the World Christian Encyclopedia, under the article for each country. These lists are not exhaustive,[SIGN] as there are too many small denominations to list separately, [/SIGN]but they should help give a clearer picture. Furthermore, the Southern Baptist Convention has over 40,000 congregations in the US alone; not to mention the Baptist General Conference, Baptist Bible Fellowship International, etc. So we are definitely not counting each congregation as its own denomination. We are also not lumping all Baptists into a single denomination, but counting each organization separately. I hope this information helps.
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Justin J. Evans
Research Assistant
Center for the Study of Global Christianity
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Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
130 Essex Street #228
South Hamilton, MA 01982 USA
E-mail: csgc@gcts.edu
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www.WorldChristianDatabase.org
www.GlobalChristianity.org
www.GCTS.edu
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PRmerger said:
If you look at the Catholic Church, you can see exactly what she believes, what she proclaims, what she teaches (caveat: do not look to Catholics to see what Catholics believe–for you will get as many variations as there are automobiles! 😉 Look to the official teaching of the Church.)

However, “most of those churches” that “consider themselves a part of one big universal church” do not have doctrinal agreement. [SIGN1]In fact, many teach CONTRARY doctrines. [/SIGN1] How can they be ONE if they do not believe the same things about our God?
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I was reading on another thread that some catholic churches are using Vatican 2 to distort Catholic church teaching. would they still be apart of the church or would you exclude them?
 
jmcrae said:
First of all “spiritual authority” is no authority at all - it’s just “what I feel” which is not a basis for authority. It’s a basis for a personal opinion, but nobody out there has to agree with your personal opinion - they have their own.

Second, Jesus said, “Take it to the Church,” (Matt. 18:15ff) which means that the Church has to be something that both you and your opponent can “go to” (it has a physical location; there is only one; both of you as Christians are subject to the same one) and that both of you can listen to (it has an audible voice that speaks to both of you at the same time, where you both hear the same advice being given to you.)

Third, the majority of the New Testament points to an earthly, visible authority that acted decisively. In Acts 15, the Church made a ruling that binds all Christians on earth even to this very day. It was not an “invisible” or “spiritual” organization - it was a group of men appointed by Christ with real authority to tell other Christians what to do and how to behave. Those who disobeyed them were no longer considered “Christians.” In the whole of Acts 15, we do not find the phrases “I feel” or “I think.”
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yes I am a member of just such a church.
 
MyRdmrLvs said:
I was reading on another thread that some catholic churches are using Vatican 2 to distort Catholic church teaching. would they still be apart of the church or would you exclude them?
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To the degree that they disagree with Jesus is the degree that they are apart from Him.
 
MyRdmrLvs said:
I was reading on another thread that some catholic churches are using Vatican 2 to distort Catholic church teaching. would they still be apart of the church or would you exclude them?
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If a Catholic openly espouses and refuses to reject heresy, they excommunicate themselves.
 
jmcrae said:
Jesus is God.

I have added in Scripture verses, to help you see how each of these things is made known to us in the Scriptures. (You might have to hit “refresh” to get the new version of the diagram to load in.)
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hehe…sometimes I get a good laugh on the board.

I am not denying Jesus as God.

But there is specific authority given. It says, 18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

My point to this whole drawn out discussion is there twofold, there is authority in heaven of a spiritual nature and there is authority on earth of a physical nature. This authority is given to Jesus. This is not a God shell-game. We are talking about a specific grant, and I said, (something to the effect) I’d rather have be working under the authority of all things spiritual than all things physical. Any work done for Heaven will not pass, but things on a physical nature will burn away.

That was my point.

With that, I must take my leave. Over the next 5 weeks I have something like 80 hour work weeks and while I cherish my time on CAF, I also recognize I have a huge time commitment to keep up. March 1, I’ll be back to carry on this and other conversations.
 
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