How do non-denominational Christians pick a church?

[PRmerger]

Just as light and darkness cannot coexist, love and hate can’t and following Christ while believing in something abhorrent, cannot theoretically happen

Yet, someone can proclaim to be a follower of Christ and believe something antithetical to your views. Who’s right? And how do you know?

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t object to other religions.

Sure you do. See this comment you made below:
[SIGN1]polytheism is a problem[/SIGN1]

I don’t object to other denominations. Anyone can worship how they want and when they want.

Really? So you’d be okay with a 50 yr old pastor claiming that he has to marry a 13 yr old girl because it’s been ordained by God and that is how God wants to be worshipped?

Really, Xavier?

Now polytheism is a problem because this changes the gospel message. Just as if I said I had to swim naked in a vat of crocodile tears to be saved. There is nothing hypocritical in saying it is false because the word of God is truth.

Indeed, it is *quite *hypocritical, Xavier.

Picture a Venn diagram. The Catholic circle is small. It says, “These are the Truths of Scripture”. Your Christian circle is bigger, and encompasses the Catholic circle. But you are still saying the same thing, “These are the Truths of Scripture”. You just include more leeway as to what’s okay to be included in this “circle of truth”.

The hypocrisy lies in your objecting to these circle of truth in the first place, as you have one yourself. It’s just larger. You claim that these boundaries separate us, yet you, yourself have boundaries of separation.

 

[jmcrae]

Or is it separating the wheat from the chaff?

That’s not our job - Jesus will do that on the Judgement Day.

 

[jmcrae]

I just don’t see it as a problem. If we are both honoring Christ in remembrance for what he did, it doesn’t matter to me that you believe that the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. It shouldn’t matter to you that I believe that it is representational.

We are one in following what Jesus said.

Of course it matters. If we are bowing down to mere bread, we are committing idolatry.

If you are stuffing your Christmas turkey with the leftovers of the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ (or throwing them out, or feeding them to the dog), you are committing sacrilege.

 

[Xavierlives]

I am going to try it this way and then go to bed.

I don’t object to other religions. I don’t object to other denominations. Anyone can worship how they want and when they want. I simply feel that many of us recognize God’s plan in the Bible. You might feel that once I am saved, I am always saved. That does not changes God’s plan. That is something that will be answered when we get to heaven.

Now polytheism is a problem because this changes the gospel message. Just as if I said I had to swim naked in a vat of crocodile tears to be saved. There is nothing hypocritical in saying it is false because the word of God is truth.

Ok… I am dozing off. maybe I’ll pick up here tomorrow.

Sure you do. See this comment you made below:
[SIGN1]polytheism is a problem[/SIGN1]

Really? So you’d be okay with a 50 yr old pastor claiming that he has to marry a 13 yr old girl because it’s been ordained by God and that is how God wants to be worshipped?

Really, Xavier?

Indeed, it is *quite *hypocritical, Xavier.

Picture a Venn diagram. The Catholic circle is small. It says, “These are the Truths of Scripture”. Your Christian circle is bigger, and encompasses the Catholic circle. But you are still saying the same thing, “These are the Truths of Scripture”. You just include more leeway as to what’s okay to be included in this “circle of truth”.

The hypocrisy lies in your objecting to these circle of truth in the first place, as you have one yourself. It’s just larger. You claim that these boundaries separate us, yet you, yourself have boundaries of separation.

Maybe “object” was a poor choice. I do not favor them either. What I am saying is I really see it as either for or against Christ. Anyone who is against Christ is obviously obectable.

It is easier to identify religions that deny Christ as religions against Christ. The Mormons on the otherhand believe in politheism and Christ. I find that to be contrary to His teaching, that while they believe in Christ, they are against Christ.

 

[PRmerger]

Maybe “object” was a poor choice. I do not favor them either. What I am saying is I really see it as either for or against Christ. Anyone who is against Christ is obviously obectable.

It is easier to identify religions that deny Christ as religions against Christ. The Mormons on the otherhand believe in politheism and Christ. I find that to be contrary to His teaching, that while they believe in Christ, they are against Christ.

I see what you’re saying.

You just draw a line in a different place than Catholics do…but you’re still drawing a line.

My position is that we as Catholics know more of the absolute Truth that we’re not willing to compromise on. You say we really can’t be sure about whether God was born of a virgin or not, whether God wants us to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, whether God is present in the Eucharist, whether God continues to reveal himself to others or whether God’s revelation ended with the last apostle, whether Jesus is 2 natures, etc etc etc, so it really doesn’t matter if we disagree on those “non-essentials.”

The only truth you’re proclaiming is that you must be for Jesus to be saved.

Ok. But I don’t know where you get that in Scripture.

 

[Bill_Pick]

From my experience, they usually base their choice on what the pastor is like. Some prefer pastors who are considered more traditional while others want pastors who will yell out in “tongues.” Some people want a pastor that aligns with their views.

Another deciding factor would be the community. Some churches, the people are not very welcoming. Others will shake your hand on the way in and the pastor will greet you as a possible congregant. Some people like the warm community of a certain church.

Most Baptist start a ND church after fighting with the Baptist

 

[Bill_Pick]

The one with the best marketing strategy usually gets the most members.

Reasons I have picked churches:

1. where my friends went
2. funniest pastor
3. best music
4. place where they needed me
5. husband’s church
6. best preaching, (doctrinally sound, in my opinion)
7. Catholic
8. Catholic
9. Catholic

Can I hold off on #3

 

[Bill_Pick]

I think after all the fighting the Baptisit pick up and go to a ND church

 

[PRmerger]

I think after all the fighting the Baptisit pick up and go to a ND church

And then after the ND church they go to another ND church

(Because, of course, they know their pastor is a fallible man, and as a fallible man, they understand he’s going to be wrong at some point. That’s what fallible means. So, of course, they have no assurance that what they hear from their pastor is actually what God is revealing. Kind of makes you have to keep on your toes all the time, doesn’t it?)

 

[Xavierlives]

I see what you’re saying.

You just draw a line in a different place than Catholics do…but you’re still drawing a line.

My position is that we as Catholics know more of the absolute Truth that we’re not willing to compromise on. You say we really can’t be sure about whether God was born of a virgin or not,

I’d say yes to Mary being a virgin.

whether God wants us to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit,

I’d say yes to baptism.

whether God is present in the Eucharist,

Substitute communion for eucharist, and I say yes.

whether God continues to reveal himself to others or whether God’s revelation ended with the last apostle,

I’d say yes, to God is still working.

whether Jesus is 2 natures, etc etc etc, so it really doesn’t matter if we disagree on those “non-essentials.”

I’m not sure what two natures you are refering, or the etc, etc, etc.

The only truth you’re proclaiming is that you must be for Jesus to be saved.

I think all of those things are important. Not essential. Lets say I am talking to someone about Jesus on a plane. They have a true conversation. Then our plane crashes on landing. That person has missed a few key moments in a Christians life, but made the most important one.

Ok. But I don’t know where you get that in Scripture.

Umm… just John 3:16.

 

[PRmerger]

I think all of those things are important. Not essential. Lets say I am talking to someone about Jesus on a plane. They have a true conversation. Then our plane crashes on landing. That person has missed a few key moments in a Christians life, but made the most important one.

But you are making an arbitrary determination for what’s “essential”. Scripture nowhere states what is an “essential” doctrine and what’s secondary.

As for John 3:16

I asked where it says this:

Originally Posted by PRmerger
The only truth you’re proclaiming is that you must be for Jesus to be saved.

John 3;16 no where says that it is the only truth that must be proclaimed in order to be saved.

Not to mention all these other verses in Scripture that you’re ignoring about salvation.

We are saved…

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By his Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)

 

[Xavierlives]

But you are making an arbitrary determination for what’s “essential”. Scripture nowhere states what is an “essential” doctrine and what’s secondary.

As for John 3:16

I asked where it says this:

John 3;16 no where says that it is the only truth that must be proclaimed in order to be saved.

Not to mention all these other verses in Scripture that you’re ignoring about salvation.

We are saved…

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By his Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)

Most all of these are accomplished when someone becomes a Christian. The few exceptions would be

By Works - We learn from Paul’s letter to the Ephesian that works is not required. That grace us what saves and not by works so that any man should boast (Eph. 2:1-9). We also see Jesus’s statements in the Gospel of John that our only work is belief (John 6:29).

By Baptism - Even the CC recognizes the “desire to be baptized” as baptized. Moreover, Jesus says in Mark 16:16, he that believes and is baptized shall be saved but he that does not believe is damned. Don’t get me wrong here, I am not saying a person shouldn’t be baptized. It is the outward sign of repentance and remission of of sins.

 

[tweetymom]

Most all of these are accomplished when someone becomes a Christian. The few exceptions would be

By Works - We learn from Paul’s letter to the Ephesian that works is not required. That grace us what saves and not by works so that any man should boast (Eph. 2:1-9). We also see Jesus’s statements in the Gospel of John that our only work is belief (John 6:29).

By Baptism - Even the CC recognizes the “desire to be baptized” as baptized. Moreover, Jesus says in Mark 16:16, he that believes and is baptized shall be saved but he that does not believe is damned. Don’t get me wrong here, I am not saying a person shouldn’t be baptized. It is the outward sign of repentance and remission of of sins.

Amen brother and nowhere does it say that Catholics have a handle on all of this.

 

[PRmerger]

Most all of these are accomplished when someone becomes a Christian. The few exceptions would be

By Works - We learn from Paul’s letter to the Ephesian that works is not required. That grace us what saves and not by works so that any man should boast (Eph. 2:1-9). We also see Jesus’s statements in the Gospel of John that our only work is belief (John 6:29).

By Baptism - Even the CC recognizes the “desire to be baptized” as baptized. Moreover, Jesus says in Mark 16:16, he that believes and is baptized shall be saved but he that does not believe is damned. Don’t get me wrong here, I am not saying a person shouldn’t be baptized. It is the outward sign of repentance and remission of of sins.

So, again, how is it that you know that all you have to do to be a Christian is to be “for” Jesus?

You have drawn some sort of arbitrary line and I’m trying to understand why you’ve chosen that particular place.

 

[PRmerger]

Most all of these are accomplished when someone becomes a Christian. The few exceptions would be

By Works - We learn from Paul’s letter to the Ephesian that works is not required.

Yet we learn from Acts and James, that works ARE, indeed, required.

You see that a man is [SIGN]justified by works[/SIGN] and not by faith alone.

Who will render to every man [SIGN]according to his deeds[/SIGN]

 

[jmcrae]

I think all of those things are important. Not essential. Lets say I am talking to someone about Jesus on a plane. They have a true conversation. Then our plane crashes on landing. That person has missed a few key moments in a Christians life, but made the most important one.

If the only people you ever evangelize are people who are about to die in the next five minutes, this is just fine.

But if you are evangelizing people who are going to be required to live the Christian life for the next 40 to 60 years, then you need a little more meat on those bones - those people will want to know more about the obligations they are taking on, about this Jesus whom they have promised to believe in (ie: His two natures, and other important facts about Him) and what He expects them to do with their lives in response to His grace.

 

[Xavierlives]

So, again, how is it that you know that all you have to do to be a Christian is to be “for” Jesus?

You have drawn some sort of arbitrary line and I’m trying to understand why you’ve chosen that particular place.

Are you asking, is there a worldy test of my spiritual life? Or are you saying, can I should be able to show a membership card to a particular organization, that is renewed annual that is my season pass to heaven?

 

[Xavierlives]

Yet we learn from Acts and James, that works ARE, indeed, required.

You see that a man is [SIGN]justified by works[/SIGN] and not by faith alone.

Who will render to every man [SIGN]according to his deeds[/SIGN]

ok. Then what exactly is meant in John 6:28-29?
28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Again, don’t get me wrong. Faith without works is dead. I am saying it isn’t necessary, though. And we will be judged on our works, but I could squeak in without doing one single thing, while you toiled away. We would both be there, Praising God for his amazing mercy.

 

[jmcrae]

Are you asking, is there a worldy test of my spiritual life? Or are you saying, can I should be able to show a membership card to a particular organization, that is renewed annual that is my season pass to heaven?

No. He is asking, are the attributes of the Jesus you believe in, the same attributes as the real Jesus who lives in Heaven has? (ie: do you believe in the real Jesus, or a fictional version of Him; aka a false god?)

If you name your rottweiler Jesus and you rely on your rottweiler for protection, you can say “I rely on Jesus for protection” but you would not mean by that statement what the Church means by that statement - and the “Jesus” that you rely on is not capable of getting you into Heaven.

In the same way, if you believe things about Jesus that are not true (or if you fail to believe things that are true), then you have created a false “Jesus” - a god who does not actually exist. Simply saying the name “Jesus” without knowing the Person to whom it refers is not enough. It is important to know and believe what is true about Jesus, as far as is humanly possible. We are not free to make stuff up about Him.