How do non-denominational Christians pick a church?

[jmcrae]

Well this is where I guess I would disagree with “them.” I find no fault confessing to priest. I think you accomplish the purpose of repentance and if you do that with another person, I think it might be a pleasant experience. While I don’t think repetitive prayers are for me, if that brings you peace and a closeness with God, then I say wonderful. To be honest, I think tradition (and Tradition) might be a needed thing. My problem is legalism (the humor is that is coming from a lawyer).

I have issues with legalism, too - in the Catholic Church, it often manifests itself as a minimalistic “what’s the least I can get away with” mentality, or else on the opposite spectrum, a kind of scrupulosity that can never get anything accomplished, from doing over every detail until it’s perfect.

G. K. Chesterton said, “If something is worth doing, it’s worth doing badly.” I recently advised someone who was hesitating to go to Confession, for fear of not making a good Confession - I told him, “Get in there and make a bad one - the priest will help you.” It’s better to make a bad Confession than not to make any Confession at all - and anyway, the priest won’t let you leave until you’ve given him something he can pray the Absolution for.

Hmm… Mary the Mother of God and Rapture. So all we need to do is bring the two together and we will see unity.

Wow… it does sound like a book title!

Mary the Mother of God and Rapture: the process of unifying the Catholic Church with Fundamentalism.

Considering how she seems to ascend and descend with a regularity that rivals the angels at Bethel, you could probably do something really interesting with that idea.

Now, back to the subject. I think more than anything is the Rapture is a novelty idea. It will not make or break any protestant’s faith. You aren’t going to see people say, “I’m leaving this church because you don’t believe in the rapture!”

Oooh - I know people who have done exactly that - and they have also left churches for not believing in the right version of the Rapture.

I think you will find more protestants believing the end times are near. Personally, I think judgment is near. Whether this judgment is the last? I don’t know. I think the problem many Christians have is they have come to expect a hand of protection to held over them while the world is being judged. Some of this is scriptural.

All we are promised is that those of us who persevere through the times of trial will receive the reward of Heaven. Nobody is promised an easy life here in this world.

 

[Xavierlives]

Do you believe that anyone still capable of committing sins can enter into Heaven?

Hold on. So you believe post-death, pre-resurrection we are still capable of sin? I will die and still be capable of sinning?

Do you believe that anyone alive on the earth, including someone who is about to die, is capable of comitting sin?

Well, lets say, I am blameless on my deathbed. And being a jokester, I say to the people leaning over me, “I buried the money in the back yard” (a lie). And then I kick the bucket.
I do not believe this lie will keep me from salvation.

How does it come about that they are able to commit sin while they are still alive, but when they arrive in Heaven they are no longer capable of committing sins?

Well, I’d say by nature of God. God is not in the presence of sin. So the sin nature will be removed.

No; it’s based on what the Jews always believed about the afterlife. The dream is just part of this specific incident - a soul who was in Purgatory appeared to someone in a dream to ask for help.

Umm… huh? The Jews in Jesus’ time were arguing the existance of an afterlife. I can only think of 1 Sam 28, being the only example of speaking with the dead, especially in light with the Jewish law against necromancy.

To speed them through it more quickly, since without anyone to pray for you, you will remain there until the Last Day, since you can do nothing for yourself, in Purgatory.

So is purgatory the area across the chasm of Abraham’s bosom?

Not “punishment,” no. Reparation.

“Punishment” is when you spank your kid for putting a baseball through your window. Jesus has taken the spanking for us, but He has not done the reparation for us. Reparation is when you take your kid’s allowance money to pay for the new window.

Reparation is civil law term, The act of making amends for a wrong.
Punishment is a criminal law term, n. A sanction–such as a fine, penalty, confinement, or loss of property, right, or privilege–assessed against a person who has violated the law.

If I told my child, don’t play baseball here. And they do. They are sinning twice and being punished for both. The punishment is they are spanked for disobedience and the punishment for breaking the window is to pay for it. I can step outside and see them playing baseball where I told them and guess what? They get a spanking for disobedience.

If I did not tell my child don’t play baseball here, and they break a window, then their punishment is not a spanking and paying for the window. It is paying for the window.

But what is the purpose of “punishment?” Most parents would say the chief purpose is to teach consequences for actions. (or negative consequences for negative actions). What is the purpose of reparations? To make the victim whole. So, God needs payment for my sin?

 

[Xavierlives]

I had been visiting quite a few churchs.

I’ve recently given up on attending any church building.

It may be a temporary state of affairs.

I continue to talk to God, and hope He doesn’t give up on me.

Well, Guy, I do pray you will find peace.

 

[jmcrae]

Hold on. So you believe post-death, pre-resurrection we are still capable of sin? I will die and still be capable of sinning?

Yes. Sin is something we do with the will; not with the body. Being rid of your body will not rid you of your inclination to commit sin. (After all, the demons have never had bodies, and yet they continunally commit sin.)

Well, I’d say by nature of God. God is not in the presence of sin. So the sin nature will be removed.

Good - you believe in Purgatory, then, because Purgatory is simply God’s way of removing the sin nature from us, to prepare us to live eternally with Him in Heaven.

So is purgatory the area across the chasm of Abraham’s bosom?

People speculate all the time about where Purgatory is, how long it takes, whether it takes “time” as we understand it, and whether it can be located in space, as such. All of these things are open questions; nobody really knows.

What we know is, there is a “prison” into which those who have not yet paid the last farthing will go to, and will be released from, once someone pays the last farthing for them to the King (which is God).

But what is the purpose of “punishment?” Most parents would say the chief purpose is to teach consequences for actions. (or negative consequences for negative actions). What is the purpose of reparations? To make the victim whole. So, God needs payment for my sin?

No - you need it. You are the one who needs to be made whole. (Holiness = wholeness.) Purgatory is medicinal; it’s not “punishment”. Hell is punishment.

 

[MariaG]

Yes, of course. As I stated earlier, Mormons are not Christians.

However, the discussion is whether they have a legitimate place in the 40,000 Christian denomination list. Certainly, when one considers all the other 40,000 denominations, their position as an “organized aggregate of worship centers or congregations of similar ecclesiastical tradition” is as valid as any other.

But if they cannot be considered Christians, they cannot have a legitimate place in the 40,000 CHRISTIAN denomination list.

They may be “similar” but that does not make it valid that they should be on a Christian list of denominations.

Respectfully,
Maria

 

[1beleevr]

{

The proof is in your spiritual ancestry. It’s much the same method you use to prove that a dog is the kind of dog that you say it is - papers, pedigrees, that go back to the original ancestor dog that was the first one of that kind of dog. (Or cat, or horse, or flower.) Just because it looks like that kind, on the surface, doesn’t necessarily mean that it is - you have to look at its history, where it came from.

The Catholic Church traces back to Jesus Christ through the Apostle St. Peter. The Greek Orthodox Church traces back to Jesus Christ through the Apostle St. Andrew.

The United Church of Canada traces back to George Pidgeon, in 1925. Before that, nothing - there is no visible trace back to 1900, never mind to 33 AD and Jesus Christ. The Seventh Day Adventists trace back to an article written in 1849 AD that influenced Ellen White to start up her own religion, with nothing before that.

}

So, let me ask you; are you a Christian just by virtue of belonging to the catholic church? And are you a better or more complete Christian than I am?

 

[Xavierlives]

Yes. Sin is something we do with the will; not with the body. Being rid of your body will not rid you of your inclination to commit sin. (After all, the demons have never had bodies, and yet they continunally commit sin.)

Good - you believe in Purgatory, then, because Purgatory is simply God’s way of removing the sin nature from us, to prepare us to live eternally with Him in Heaven.

People speculate all the time about where Purgatory is, how long it takes, whether it takes “time” as we understand it, and whether it can be located in space, as such. All of these things are open questions; nobody really knows.

What we know is, there is a “prison” into which those who have not yet paid the last farthing will go to, and will be released from, once someone pays the last farthing for them to the King (which is God).

No - you need it. You are the one who needs to be made whole. (Holiness = wholeness.) Purgatory is medicinal; it’s not “punishment”. Hell is punishment.

Well, I don’t like hospitals either. I have spent quite a bit of my life there and the first few days suck because you are sick. Then the middle days come and you are feeling better and watch television. Then the last days come and you want nothing more than to get out because you develop cabin fever. Just stepping out into the hallway at night is an adventure.

So, because I hate hospitals, I reject your St. Luke’s Purgatory Hospital. (of course this last part is just a joke).

On a serious question, Can you start praying for yourself now?

 

[1beleevr]

Yes. Sin is something we do with the will; not with the body. Being rid of your body will not rid you of your inclination to commit sin. (After all, the demons have never had bodies, and yet they continunally commit sin.)

Good - you believe in Purgatory, then, because Purgatory is simply God’s way of removing the sin nature from us, to prepare us to live eternally with Him in Heaven.

People speculate all the time about where Purgatory is, how long it takes, whether it takes “time” as we understand it, and whether it can be located in space, as such. All of these things are open questions; nobody really knows.

What we know is, there is a “prison” into which those who have not yet paid the last farthing will go to, and will be released from, once someone pays the last farthing for them to the King (which is God).

No - you need it. You are the one who needs to be made whole. (Holiness = wholeness.) Purgatory is medicinal; it’s not “punishment”. Hell is punishment.

]

In 1Corinthians 3:13-15, which is what the catholics use to support their belief in purgatory, Paul speaks of a man’s “works” being tested by fire.What exactly are these works of which he speaks?

 

[Xavierlives]

The proof is in your spiritual ancestry. It’s much the same method you use to prove that a dog is the kind of dog that you say it is - papers, pedigrees, that go back to the original ancestor dog that was the first one of that kind of dog. (Or cat, or horse, or flower.) Just because it looks like that kind, on the surface, doesn’t necessarily mean that it is - you have to look at its history, where it came from.

The Catholic Church traces back to Jesus Christ through the Apostle St. Peter. The Greek Orthodox Church traces back to Jesus Christ through the Apostle St. Andrew.

The United Church of Canada traces back to George Pidgeon, in 1925. Before that, nothing - there is no visible trace back to 1900, never mind to 33 AD and Jesus Christ. The Seventh Day Adventists trace back to an article written in 1849 AD that influenced Ellen White to start up her own religion, with nothing before that.

So no mutts in heavens?

 

[1beleevr]

{

The proof is in your spiritual ancestry. It’s much the same method you use to prove that a dog is the kind of dog that you say it is - papers, pedigrees, that go back to the original ancestor dog that was the first one of that kind of dog. (Or cat, or horse, or flower.) Just because it looks like that kind, on the surface, doesn’t necessarily mean that it is - you have to look at its history, where it came from.

The Catholic Church traces back to Jesus Christ through the Apostle St. Peter. The Greek Orthodox Church traces back to Jesus Christ through the Apostle St. Andrew.

The United Church of Canada traces back to George Pidgeon, in 1925. Before that, nothing - there is no visible trace back to 1900, never mind to 33 AD and Jesus Christ. The Seventh Day Adventists trace back to an article written in 1849 AD that influenced Ellen White to start up her own religion, with nothing before that.

]

All of us Christians, who are in Christ Jesus, trace our spiritual ancestry all the way back to Jesus!

 

[PRmerger]

But if they cannot be considered Christians, they cannot have a legitimate place in the 40,000 CHRISTIAN denomination list.

They may be “similar” but that does not make it valid that they should be on a Christian list of denominations.

Respectfully,
Maria

Again, the fact that I do not consider them to be Christians is irrelevant. They’ve read the Bible and have come up with their doctrines regarding Jesus; they are an organized aggregate of worship centers or congregations of similar ecclesiastical tradition and thus have a rightful place in that obscene 40,000 list.

Heck, even their name has Jesus in it!

 

[1beleevr]

{

Again, the fact that I do not consider them to be Christians is irrelevant. They’ve read the Bible and have come up with their doctrines regarding Jesus; they are an organized aggregate of worship centers or congregations of similar ecclesiastical tradition and thus have a rightful place in that obscene 40,000 list.

Heck, even their name has Jesus in it!

]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t the Mormons not believe that Jesus is God? Do they not believe that He was just a prophet, and not the True Son of God?

 

[Xavierlives]

Again, the fact that I do not consider them to be Christians is irrelevant. They’ve read the Bible and have come up with their doctrines regarding Jesus; they are an organized aggregate of worship centers or congregations of similar ecclesiastical tradition and thus have a rightful place in that obscene 40,000 list.

Heck, even their name has Jesus in it!

And that is what they say. They say they are equal to you because they use His name and you validate it.

The Muslims say Jesus was the Messiah born of a virgin birth, you should accept them too.

 

[Xavierlives]

{]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t the Mormons not believe that Jesus is God? Do they not believe that He was just a prophet, and not the True Son of God?

Umm… they do not believe in the Trinity. They believe Jesus & God are separate entities, both worthy of God-like attention.

They fracture because they believe they will attain that same status. They are joint-heirs with Christ, therefore, they will be equal to God (or at a position God holds now). He will hold some “higher” position when they are gods. They believe when this occurs they will then spawn spirit children of their own on their own planets (like apparently what God is doing with us). Which also begs the question, will they then have an individual plan of salvation for their planets, whichwill in turn create new gods… my head is hurting.

 

[PRmerger]

{}So, let me ask you; are you a Christian just by virtue of belonging to the catholic church?

I am a Christian by virtue of my baptism into the hope of Christ’s resurrection.

And are you a better or more complete Christian than I am?

Absolutely NOT!

I would never ever ever claim that I am a better Christian than you.

However, Christ gave us His Church to provide us with His Grace in order to be fully united to Him. There is no closer way to unite with Him than being ONE FLESH. He and I are ONE when we are joined in the Eucharist. We have the Mass, the Eucharist, the communion of saints, the 7 sacraments, the Scriptures, the Magisterium, Mary our Mother, the sublime and profound writings of the Doctors of the Church as well as the simple but eloquent lives of peasants and farmgirls who martyred their lives for Christ as our example.

How magnificent is the Body of Christ!! I invite you, 1beleevr, to come join us at this Banquet!

 

[PRmerger]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t the Mormons not believe that Jesus is God? Do they not believe that He was just a prophet, and not the True Son of God?

They say Jesus is the Son of God, but through a use of tricky semantics (in my opinion), get a totally different understanding than what Catholics mean by “Son of God.”

 

[Xavierlives]

How magnificent is the Body of Christ!! I invite you, 1beleevr, to come join us at this Banquet!

See you there!

 

[ufamtobie]

Like I said I go direct.

Tweetymom,

Yes, it is good to go direct, but better if you go by two or more Jesus Christ said this not me.

Read Matt 18: 20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Tweetymom, if you don’t want to follow Jesus Christ words in Matt 18: 20 then thats your problemo:thumbsup:

Ufamtobie

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

The proof is in your spiritual ancestry. It’s much the same method you use to prove that a dog is the kind of dog that you say it is - papers, pedigrees, that go back to the original ancestor dog that was the first one of that kind of dog. (Or cat, or horse, or flower.) Just because it looks like that kind, on the surface, doesn’t necessarily mean that it is - you have to look at its history, where it came from.

The Catholic Church traces back to Jesus Christ through the Apostle St. Peter. The Greek Orthodox Church traces back to Jesus Christ through the Apostle St. Andrew.

The United Church of Canada traces back to George Pidgeon, in 1925. Before that, nothing - there is no visible trace back to 1900, never mind to 33 AD and Jesus Christ. The Seventh Day Adventists trace back to an article written in 1849 AD that influenced Ellen White to start up her own religion, with nothing before that.

So believe and have a pedigree and thou shalt be saved!

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Xavierlives:
Good to know we can limit a discussion to these three points and anything else is speculation.

So it is based on a dream?

I’m not sure I understand how this works. You pray to God for the person in pergatory? To what end?

While I don’t think the timeframe between death and resurrection is going to be a lengthy one, I find no fault in praying for rest, as I would pray my children have a restful night’s sleep.

So the belief is Catholics go to purgatory as a punishment for their sins and only after being tortured by God for sufficient length of time they are released? Makes me even more thankful of Christ’s sacrifice for me.

How does purgatory mesh with I Sam. 28:15?

what are all the things a catholic can do to get their loved one out of puratory???