When you read the New Testament, the descriptions, dialogues etc are, for you, ‘true’ and the trilemma makes sense, when I read the New Testament, I don’t believe anything of the sort and the trilemma is the equivalent of discussing something said in a particular scene in the play Julius Caesar.I’m sorry but you really are missing the point - if I read Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar, I know that it’s a work of fiction somewhat based on the life of a real person, I do not have to believe that every word that comes out of Caesar’s mouth in the play is a direct quote from the original.
I appreciate you for that your heart feel sad when you think some other do not undrestand faith. You are true in your religion. Christianity (at least according to Muslims is religion of a prophet) is a holy religion and to you it is the only way for salvation. But try to understand Muslims. They do not purpose to blaspheme Christianity and Holy Spirit. How Christians make many objections against Islam like that you should be peaceful when a Muslim make some objection against Christianity. Some times ı hear very awful assertions about Islam from Christians and these allegations is made with a wicked will. But ı know that these men do not know the fact so ı must be calm and peaceful otherwise ı will expel them.Yes, but I like to make sure in order to see how ignorant our Muslim Gospel “readers” are. That way I can judge if they’re educated and have read the Gospel, or are just spewing rubbish as you say.
They don’t read the Bible as is clear, because they quote stuff like this. We know John wrote one of the Gospels as one book; not like the Qur’an which spans many revelations over a long period of time. So when John quotes Jesus speaking of the Spirit of Truth who “will be in you” etc, we know Jesus is speaking of the Holy Spirit.
I feel sad. Because I know Muslims are being lied to in order to justify their beliefs, and it hearts my heart to be honest.When they refrain from reading the Bible and take a passage out of context to blaspheme the Holy Spirit (which Jesus said is unforgivable) it hurts. Not because i’m offended, but because I know there is no hope for those who lie to themselves in order to justify their beliefs. It’s just really sad.
I’m glad you see how it makes me feel.I appreciate you for that your heart feel sad when you think some other do not undrestand faith. You are true in your religion. Christianity (at least according to Muslims is religion of a prophet) is a holy religion and to you it is the only way for salvation. But try to understand Muslims. They do not purpose to blaspheme Christianity and Holy Spirit. How Christians make many objections against Islam like that you should be peaceful when a Muslim make some objection against Christianity. Some times ı hear very awful assertions about Islam from Christians and these allegations is made with a wicked will. But ı know that these men do not know the fact so ı must be calm and peaceful otherwise ı will expel them.
We have many difficulties with trinity doctrine. If you can tolerate ı want to share?
You would first need to honestly answer the question why you would use OUR Scripture about that Jesus would ask the Father and thus Jesus them would send the Holy Spirit, when Islam doesn’t consider that God is a Father in the first place!We have many difficulties with trinity doctrine. If you can tolerate ı want to share?
There is no so obvious verses in Gospels and you claim that trinity is generated and formed by Church tradition. Here tradition is considered more prevail than scripture. If traditon was consisted of human experiments then it would not be so trusty. If you claim that tradition was consisted by guidance of Holy Spirit then you must explain and prove that issue.You would first need to honestly answer the question why you would use OUR Scripture about that Jesus would ask the Father and thus Jesus them would send the Holy Spirit, when Islam doesn’t consider that God is a Father in the first place!
Why is this insistence to take Scipture that we use then deny part of it and thereafter use your prophet as the Holy Spirit? I would require a very honest answer as mentioned. You also should not stray away (moving the goalpost so to speak) from clearing this up and instead switch the subject matter about why Christians put down Islam?
Lets discuss and clear this up first then talk about the Trinity.
MJ
If you use simple sentences it will be easy for me to understand. My English is not good.Lets discuss and clear this up first then talk about the Trinity.
MJ
God con do everything but that does not mean that God should do pointless acts because God has nany attributes and those do not conflict with each others. If God want to come on earth that conflict with many facts.I’m glad you see how it makes me feel.
As far as the Trinity, you’re welcome to share; I don’t have any issue with that, nor do other Christians. The Trinity is hard to explain because it is God, the One God as revealed through Scripture. God and His attributes can’t always be explained without books and books. I cannot in a few sentences explain the nature of God.
The simplest way I explain God as we know Him, is that if God wanted to come to Earth and walk as a Man, then He could and did. It doesn’t make Him any less God that He wanted to join His people. However, God had a mission when He joined us, and that was to live a perfect life as a human being and bring a perfect sacrifice.
Also, we believe that God is able to give us His spirit. What’s stopping God from giving us His Spirit, and although it is separate from God in His fullest, The Holy Spirit is still God. Throughout Scripture God sends His Spirit, and if His Spirit is eternal, then His Spirit must be God; as there’s only One God.
This is the essence of the Trinity as I can explain it simply. I’m not a fan of analogies, I would rather just explain; but no it’s not always easy.
All of that said, I understand a Muslim’s skepticism for many reasons. The first is shirk. To commit shirk is unforgivable, so for you to call Jesus God, well you jeopardize your soul forever. Secondly you can’t wrap your mind around it, it sounds confusing and illogical so you drop the concept.
However, what you cannot do is read websites that lie to you in order that you may justify your beliefs. When Jesus speaks of the Spirit of Truth there is no doubt who He is speaking of. The Holy Spirit. We know that from the passages surrounding the one you quoted. We also know that John wrote one coherent book and did not pick up many random sayings that were eventually compiled into one book. So to cherry pick “Spirit of Truth” and claim it’s Muhammad is dishonest.
Perhaps not intentionally dishonest, but you’re being lied to if you believe it.
I ask again is God a Father in Islam yes or no? I’m not talking about Church tradition except you using Our Scripture to say your prophet is the Holy Spirit.There is no so obvious verses in Gospels and you claim that trinity is generated and formed by Church tradition. Here tradition is considered more prevail than scripture. If traditon was consisted of human experiments then it would not be so trusty. If you claim that tradition was consisted by guidance of Holy Spirit then you must explain and prove that issue.
I think you understand me just fine. But let me ask what is it you don’t understand?If you use simple sentences it will be easy for me to understand. My English is not good.
It was to prove His unfailing love. And it doesn’t conflict anything.God con do everything but that does not mean that God should do pointless acts because God has nany attributes and those do not conflict with each others. If God want to come on earth that conflict with many facts.
I’m not sure what you’re saying here. “Not only that quote” that’s fine, you can add more.There is no only that quote and ıf Muslims were not so sure they would not dispute. Muslims objections source fron a holy spirit which never corrupted with no doubth and a very trusty prophet. But Christianity claims are predicated on mysteries.
Sory! I did not want to write holy spirit(ı were busy) but ı wanted to write holy scripture(quran). If Father mean protector yes God is father. Father is the unique God. What you mean the Father in Trinity is the God(Allah) but Son and Holy Spirit are not part of Divinity. Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit(Gabriel or ı cannot understand exactly what Christian mean) have very importance but that is all.I ask again is God a Father in Islam yes or no? I’m not talking about Church tradition except you using Our Scripture to say your prophet is the Holy Spirit.
MJ
"Why is this insistence to take Scipture that we use then deny part of it and thereafter use your prophet as the Holy Spirit? I would require a very honest answer as mentioned. You also should not stray away (moving the goalpost so to speak) from clearing this up and instead switch the subject matter about why Christians put down Islam? "I think you understand me just fine. But let me ask what is it you don’t understand?
MJ
You claimed Muhammad is the Spirit of Truth. Except the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit. That is our contention."Why is this insistence to take Scipture that we use then deny part of it and thereafter use your prophet as the Holy Spirit? I would require a very honest answer as mentioned. You also should not stray away (moving the goalpost so to speak) from clearing this up and instead switch the subject matter about why Christians put down Islam? "
I cannot understand that text above totally. Muslim prophet is not Holy Spirit but Mohammed got revelation from Holy Spirit.
Except that saying this doesn’t make it true. It’s been proven that the Injil is the same now as it’s always been. It’s been scientifically proven through textual criticism that the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ were written down in the 1st century.Muslim do not deny Gospels wholly. Muslims think some part of Gospels were changed according to perception of Christian clerics. And that part conflict with the main topics which were in all scriptures(forexample unity and singularity of God, innocence of new-borns etc). I think all these issues occured because of wrongly of interpretation of Gospels and by the period of time Church tradition consisted.
What do you mean with “It was to prove His unfailing love.” Did God send and sacrfice His Son to prove love between Son and God? Or Did God sacrifice His Son to prove that God loves people more than His Son?It was to prove His unfailing love. And it doesn’t conflict anything.
I’m not sure what you’re saying here. “Not only that quote” that’s fine, you can add more.
“Muslims would not dispute.” What?
“Muslim objections source from a holy spirit which never corrupted.” Again, what?
There is confusion hasantas because your understanding of God is different to how Christians understand God.Sory! I did not want to write holy spirit(ı were busy) but ı wanted to write holy scripture(quran). If Father mean protector yes God is father. Father is the unique God. What you mean the Father in Trinity is the God(Allah) but Son and Holy Spirit are not part of Divinity. Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit(Gabriel or ı cannot understand exactly what Christian mean) have very importance but that is all.
To show God’s love for us even though we were still sinners:What do you mean with “It was to prove His unfailing love.” Did God send and sacrfice His Son to prove love between Son and God? Or Did God sacrifice His Son to prove that God loves people more than His Son?
Why can’t He? Is He not powerful enough? Surely in the Qur’an God was in a burning bush. Also, Jesus has existed eternally with God.Some conflicts:
A divinity substance never materialize but God creates material. God does not convert to what He creates.
So again, God is not powerful enough to join His creation? Did He not walk through the garden of Eden?God never settle in place, time because God is out and beyond of those.
Even you believe your Heaven will have sex, drinks and pleasure. Although we do not believe such things (we believe that Heaven will be to worship God eternally) you and I share that we will have some type of eternal, physical/spiritual body.From where the matter of human side of Son came? And after death where did it go? That matter must be Holy but ı think that atoms are in every where.
Yes, in abundance. Besides accepting worship and claiming to be God.Jesus did not show the attributes of a God, did He? İs there any unique sample for that? Prophets performed some miracles and that is all.
They will all reach salvation through Jesus Christ. As will you if you accept it one day.Before Jesus some other prophet were killed, cut, tortured so did not God sent and sacrifice all that prophets for sins of mankind?
To show God’s love for us even though we were still sinners:
Romans 5:10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
Why can’t He? Is He not powerful enough? Surely in the Qur’an God was in a burning bush. Also, Jesus has existed eternally with God.
God is allpowerful so there is no thing which God cannot do but also there is many things God never do but He can. God never do injustice, never force human to do anything. God can change physical laws but he does not(excepts miracles). God never do improper acts.So again, God is not powerful enough to join His creation? Did He not walk through the garden of Eden?
Human will have a body in Heavens not God. Humanbeing already have a body and in Heavens he will be more rich not poor. That issue was discussed in an other thread recents.Even you believe your Heaven will have sex, drinks and pleasure. Although we do not believe such things (we believe that Heaven will be to worship God eternally) you and I share that we will have some type of eternal, physical/spiritual body.
Who is father of Adam?There is confusion hasantas because your understanding of God is different to how Christians understand God.
Islamic understanding is based on the concept that God is one, all knowing, but unknowable,loves, but only loves those who believe in him.
Christians believe in a one God who is knowable, who loves all, even those who do not believe in Him.
We believe Jesus, who is God Incarnate, the Son,who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,not by the Angel Gabriel, as the Quran leads Muslims to understand.
The angel Gabriel was only the messenger sent to Mary giving her the important news that she was to give birth to a son she had to name as Jesus, who would be great and be called the Son of the Most High God. Mark 1:26-38
As a Muslim you have to believe that Jesus was not created in the same way as any human being, according to the Quran Jesus was created supernaturally, but born to a human mother.
This means Jesus was no normal human being, he had no natural father, only a supernatural Father, the same Father Jesus prays to whilst on earth, and taught His followers to do the same by teaching them the prayer called the Our Father.
This is why Christians can, and do call Jesus the “Son” of God, because this is how the Incarnation can be understood.
I say you do understand because you accept Jesus’ words (from Our Scripture) that he will ask the Father to send the Holy Spirit. Why accept Our Scripture? Now you are switching that Mohammed is the Holy Spirit to being sent by the Holy Spirit. Totally inconsistent."Why is this insistence to take Scipture that we use then deny part of it and thereafter use your prophet as the Holy Spirit? I would require a very honest answer as mentioned. You also should not stray away (moving the goalpost so to speak) from clearing this up and instead switch the subject matter about why Christians put down Islam? "
I cannot understand that text above totally. Muslim prophet is not Holy Spirit but Mohammed got revelation from Holy Spirit.
You have to show exactly where Christian clerics changed the perception from what. Be clear. Give me the exact changes.Muslim do not deny Gospels wholly. Muslims think some part of Gospels were changed according to perception of Christian clerics.
Ah so you think. You simply don’t know or haven’t the inclination to learn about the experience of the man called Jesus and his apostles and the Church, what has been taught long before Islam.And that part conflict with the main topics which were in all scriptures(forexample unity and singularity of God, innocence of new-borns etc). I think all these issues occured because of wrongly of interpretation of Gospels and by the period of time Church tradition consisted.
Can you clarify Hasantas what are the verses that point to Mohammed? And the proof exactly how they were changed by lapse of time.=MartinJordan;12275022]
**There are some verses in Gospels which point prophet Mohammed **but these kinds of verses were changed a bit by lapse of time.