How do other religions view Jesus?

[otterman]

Both Jews and Christians worship the same God of the Bible, YHWH it has the same characteristics which we both agree on, as well as both being obliged to follow the Ten Commandments.
The only points Jews do not accept are Jesus is not the Messiah or God, however, their own scriptures would disagree.
Muslims are obliged to follow Sharia Law,(Allahs laws) which opposes the Bible Gods Laws.

 

[Servant19]

Thank you, if you could find the Al Bukhari reference it would be helpful.

Here you go dear friend:

Narrated by Abu Huraira in Bukhari, vol 8, hadith 509



.

 

[SteveVH]

No, incorrect.

I hold to the Catholic faith, in doing so I am obliged not to lie, which is precisely why I take the position I do.

I cannot be true to my faith if I agree I worship the Islamic god Allah, because I don’t,as

further investigation,and Christian and Islamic teachings prove this conclusively.

You had better read what the Church teaches. It teaches that we do, indeed, worship the same God. The fact that we have a better understanding of who this God is through the revelation of Jesus Christ only means we have a better understanding. It does not mean we worship a different God. The three great monotheistic religions all recognize only one, true God.

 

[otterman]

You had better read what the Church teaches. It teaches that we do, indeed, worship the same God. The fact that we have a better understanding of who this God is through the revelation of Jesus Christ only means we have a better understanding. It does not mean we worship a different God. The three great monotheistic religions all recognize only one, true God.

Christian and Islamic doctrine cannot agree that we worship the same God.Galatians 1:1-9,Deuteronomy 13:1-5 and Jesus Himself confirm this truth.

Christians agree that Mohammed was a false prophet, he was a false prophet because he came with a different message, and his actions did not comply with The Bible Gods commands.
Allah rejects Jesus’s divinity, His death by crucifixion, and His resurrection. These are central to Christian doctrine. If Allah was the same God of the Bible, the Gospel could not be rejected.

 

[SteveVH]

Christian and Islamic doctrine cannot agree that we worship the same God.Galatians 1:1-9,Deuteronomy 13:1-5 and Jesus Himself confirm this truth.

Then I guess the Catholic Church got this one wrong, according to your own private interpretation of the Scriptures.

Christians agree that Mohammed was a false prophet, he was a false prophet because he came with a different message, and his actions did not comply with The Bible Gods commands.

Yes. We can agree that Muhammad is a false prophet. His teachings concerning the one, true God are in error. But he is not teaching about Zeus or Baal. He teachings are incorrect concerning the one, true God. It is Muhammad that is in error about the one, true God they worship.

Allah rejects Jesus’s divinity, His death by crucifixion, and His resurrection.

No, Muhammad rejects Jesus’ divinity, death and resurrection. He, therefore, is lacking in a true understanding of the nature of the one, true God.

 

[otterman]

Then I guess the Catholic Church got this one wrong, according to your own private interpretation of the Scriptures.

Yes. We can agree that Muhammad is a false prophet. His teachings concerning the one, true God are in error. But he is not teaching about Zeus or Baal. He teachings are incorrect concerning the one, true God. It is Muhammad that is in error about the one, true God they worship.

No, Muhammad rejects Jesus’ divinity, death and resurrection. He, therefore, is lacking in a true understanding of the nature of the one, true God.

The scriptures quoted, Galations,Deuteronomy,and from Jesus, could not be more clear, they do not need interpretation.They say clearly "do not accept a different message to the Gospel, they are false and deceive many.

Mohammed is said to have had revelations from Allah, written down in the Quran,it is given then that it is Allah who rejects the Gospel not Mohammed found in the Quran, 5.72-75

If Allah was the same God of the Bible, the Gospel could not be rejected.

 

[SteveVH]

The scriptures quoted, Galations,Deuteronomy,and from Jesus, could not be more clear, they do not need interpretation.They say clearly "do not accept a different message to the Gospel, they are false and deceive many.

All Scripture must be interpreted, otterman. In this case you are going against the interpretation of the Church in favor of your own opinion. You really should address this.

Mohammed is said to have had revelations from Allah, written down in the Quran,it is given then that it is Allah who rejects the Gospel not Mohammed found in the Quran, 5.72-75

This would only be true if you actually believe that Muhammad did receive revelations. No?

If Allah was the same God of the Bible, the Gospel could not be rejected.

Parts of the Bible are rejected by those who call themselves Christians, as well. How many Protestants reject the Eucharist, even though, from a Catholic perspective, it is very well laid out in the Scriptures? Does this mean that they worship a different god? Or does it mean that they are in error concerning the will of the one, true God whom they do worship?

 

[otterman]

All Scripture must be interpreted, otterman. In this case you are going against the interpretation of the Church in favor of your own opinion. You really should address this.

This would only be true if you actually believe that Muhammad did receive revelations. No?

Parts of the Bible are rejected by those who call themselves Christians, as well. How many Protestants reject the Eucharist, even though, from a Catholic perspective, it is very well laid out in the Scriptures? Does this mean that they worship a different god? Or does it mean that they are in error concerning the will of the one, true God whom they do worship?

All Scripture must be interpreted, otterman. In this case you are going against the interpretation of the Church in favor of your own opinion

Please give the correct interpretation of Galatians 1:1-9,Deuteronomy 13:1-5

All Christians accept Jesus’s divinity, his death by crucifixion, and His resurrection. The fact that Jews do not, does not put them in the same mould as Muslims, as both Jews and Christians accept that God is a Father, and Spirit, loves all mankind, and both faiths follow the Ten Commandments, Muslims do not accept this.

The Quran is said to come from the God of the Bible, it is said to be a continuation of previous scriptures, with Mohammed as a prophet of this same God. The Quran rejects all what Christians believe, claims previous scripture was changed, and disobeys the Bible Gods Commands, based on these facts alone neither Jews nor Christians cannot accept the Quran comes from the same divine source as their own scriptures.

It is true Mohammed did worship a creator god, and its name was Allah,but this could not have been the same God worshipped by Christians and Jews because it was a pagan idol. Mohammed just elevated his already known god, to be the only god, aligning it with the Bible God to give Islam more authenticity as a religion.

 

[TypesAndShadows]

I think our commonalities outweigh our differences dear friend

Maybe I could ask you to study this very thought provoking dialogue between myself and our dear brother Vouthon (you may or may not know him, but he is a Catholic who I admire, respect and love dearly). It eventually goes off topic, but maybe we could resume the dialogue and explore it together from where it left off?

That would be lovely

Here’s the link:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=871718&highlight=bahai+cosmology

.

Ah, but how could I know him, if I cannot describe his essence?

That does look like an interesting conversation, but isn’t really what I was looking for. I was really interested in you expanding on who you think Jesus is/was, what you think an avatar is, and possibly what you believe Catholic teaching to be on the Incarnation given that you think it is the same thing as your view of what an avatar is, and given that you kept using the word “aspect” to describe what I assume you considered to be a Catholic view of Jesus.

I am unconcerned with whether we have more in common or different: I just find it interesting to learn what people truly believe and think about things. Knowing where we differ also makes it easier to extend proper charity to people with different beliefs, whereas smoothing over the differences can make that very hard. For instance, many of your comments are easier to take as the well-intentioned comments that I’m sure they are, because I know that the universality of faiths, their harmony, the ability to synthesise them together, is very important to your faith. If I did not know that you held this view, which many other faiths do not hold, some of your comments would not look as well-intentioned as I am sure they actually are.

Well, I don’t know if you’ll read all that wall of text!

In short, if you’re interested in laying out what you actually believe first, and then we look at how it compares to Catholic teaching, so as to better inform ourselves on where we agree and disagree (and it’s okay to disagree!), then I am very up for that.

If you’d rather not take part in that sort of discussion, that’s fine too. I wouldn’t want to make you feel scrutinised or uncomfortable or suchlike. Or maybe you’re just generally uninterested in the topic: that’s fine too.

There isn’t a smily to illustrate “I am stroking a cat who is watching me type this, while relaxing on a sofa waiting for my washing to finish”, so I guess you might be more interested in a rough approximation on my facial expression, to assure yourself that I’m not frowning at my screen?

 

[otterman]

Both Jews and Christians follow the Ten Commandments, accept God as a Father and Spirit, and loves all mankind.Islam does not teach this.

Mohammed is said to have received revelations which say that previous scriptures were changed, this included Jewish scriptures. We as Christians cannot accept this as true, neither can the Jews. Mohammed could not have received revelations from the same God as the Bible, as it rejects all what was given previously.

 

[SteveVH]

Please give the correct interpretation of Galatians 1:1-9,Deuteronomy 13:1-5

All Christians accept Jesus’s divinity, his death by crucifixion, and His resurrection. The fact that Jews do not, does not put them in the same mould as Muslims, as both Jews and Christians accept that God is a Father, and Spirit, loves all mankind, and both faiths follow the Ten Commandments, Muslims do not accept this.

The Quran is said to come from the God of the Bible, it is said to be a continuation of previous scriptures, with Mohammed as a prophet of this same God. The Quran rejects all what Christians believe, claims previous scripture was changed, and disobeys the Bible Gods Commands, based on these facts alone neither Jews nor Christians cannot accept the Quran comes from the same divine source as their own scriptures.

It is true Mohammed did worship a creator god, and its name was Allah,but this could not have been the same God worshipped by Christians and Jews because it was a pagan idol. Mohammed just elevated his already known god, to be the only god, aligning it with the Bible God to give Islam more authenticity as a religion.

In all of this you are avoiding the principle question. Do you believe all that the Catholic Church teaches to be true or do you not? My interpretation of any specific verse of the Bible is irrelevant. You can validly disagree with anything that comes from my interpretation. But it is the Church with which you must reconcile your beliefs. At this point, you are at odds with the teaching of the Catholic Church.

So, I ask you once again. Do you believe all that the Catholic Church professes to be true?

 

[Servant19]

Ah, but how could I know him, if I cannot describe his essence?

That does look like an interesting conversation, but isn’t really what I was looking for. I was really interested in you expanding on who you think Jesus is/was, what you think an avatar is, and possibly what you believe Catholic teaching to be on the Incarnation given that you think it is the same thing as your view of what an avatar is, and given that you kept using the word “aspect” to describe what I assume you considered to be a Catholic view of Jesus.

I am unconcerned with whether we have more in common or different: I just find it interesting to learn what people truly believe and think about things. Knowing where we differ also makes it easier to extend proper charity to people with different beliefs, whereas smoothing over the differences can make that very hard. For instance, many of your comments are easier to take as the well-intentioned comments that I’m sure they are, because I know that the universality of faiths, their harmony, the ability to synthesise them together, is very important to your faith. If I did not know that you held this view, which many other faiths do not hold, some of your comments would not look as well-intentioned as I am sure they actually are.

Well, I don’t know if you’ll read all that wall of text!

In short, if you’re interested in laying out what you actually believe first, and then we look at how it compares to Catholic teaching, so as to better inform ourselves on where we agree and disagree (and it’s okay to disagree!), then I am very up for that.

If you’d rather not take part in that sort of discussion, that’s fine too. I wouldn’t want to make you feel scrutinised or uncomfortable or suchlike. Or maybe you’re just generally uninterested in the topic: that’s fine too.

There isn’t a smily to illustrate “I am stroking a cat who is watching me type this, while relaxing on a sofa waiting for my washing to finish”, so I guess you might be more interested in a rough approximation on my facial expression, to assure yourself that I’m not frowning at my screen?

LOL…I must say I enjoy your posts …I believe the smily you’re looking for is:

[SIGN]I’m stroking a cat on the sofa[/SIGN]

Anyway, lets get back this. I have 3000 posts here. Nothing makes me uncomfortable except maybe (and its a big maybe because I’m very tolerant) dialoguing with those that repetitively don’t read my posts, or other peoples posts in a thread, so your wall of text was read I assure you.

I guess the concepts that you wish to discuss require the answering of some foundational questions.

In order to understand the Incarnation, we must first understand the Prologue and ask some critical questions.

1. What is the Word?
2. How can something “be” God and “be with” God at the same time?

Now try to find a way to correlate this with what Peter says in 1 Peter:

1Pe 1:20
He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake.

Let me also provide some contextual passages from Justin Martyr:

And the first power after God the Father and Lord of all is the Word, who is also the Son; and of Him we will, in what follows, relate how He took flesh and became man.

And when we say also that the Word, who is the firstborn of God, was brought forth without sexual union…

How about we start with these simple steps first and we can explore together further and further along the journey, and I will bring in the Hindu scriptures relating to avatars as we progress. Does that sound ok?

.

 

[magnet]

Both Jews and Christians follow the Ten Commandments, accept God as a Father and Spirit, and loves all mankind.Islam does not teach this.

Mohammed is said to have received revelations which say that previous scriptures were changed, this included Jewish scriptures. We as Christians cannot accept this as true, neither can the Jews. Mohammed could not have received revelations from the same God as the Bible, as it rejects all what was given previously.

God has changed over the millenia. The Yahweh that Moses and Elijah followed was a spiteful god who punished unmercifully and sanctioned the massacre of the Canaanites by Joshua. The story was that the Assyrians were sent by Yahweh to attack the Jews as God’s punishment for not following the Torah.

Does that sound like the same God whose son was Jesus? Would Jesus envision cruel punishment for not following his teachings?

And since, the Muslims claim that the God of Abraham is worshipped by all Abrahamic religions, and God never changes, how can all this be reconciled?

 

[Servant19]

God has changed over the millenia. The Yahweh that Moses and Elijah followed was a spiteful god who punished unmercifully and sanctioned the massacre of the Canaanites by Joshua. The story was that the Assyrians were sent by Yahweh to attack the Jews as God’s punishment for not following the Torah.

Does that sound like the same God whose son was Jesus? Would Jesus envision cruel punishment for not following his teachings?

And since, the Muslims claim that the God of Abraham is worshipped by all Abrahamic religions, and God never changes, how can all this be reconciled?

Maybe God hasn’t changed dear friend, but as He is infinite, He is ALL of what is taught in religion.

What is taught about God though, FOCUSES on what attributes are needed at the time of teaching.

God guides and teaches humanity about His nature. Sometimes the focus is on justice, sometimes on His mercy, sometimes on His love. Each age and each population have different requirements.

Maybe this is a perspective for your consideration

,

 

[billcu1]

Judaism - False prophet

Islam - A prophet only, certainly not the Son of God. According to Islam an imposter was crucified in Jesus’ place and he ran and hid. No passion, death and resurrection and therefor no redemption through Jesus.

Buddhism - I don’t think they believe anything. God, altogether, is pretty much non-existent in Buddhism.

Buddhist would believe him to be a great Bodhissattva or on the path to Buddhahood. And a creator of a pureland, heaven to us. That is a bit disturbing that no one seems to know anything about buddhism. But has alot to say anyway.

And Judaism, well that depends. messianic Jews believe he was the messiah. It’s not that cut and dry. It is best to let one of a faith speak for himself.

 

[Kaninchen]

And Judaism, well that depends. messianic Jews believe he was the messiah.

‘Messianic Jews’ are evangelical protestant Christians who like a bit of judaica in their lives.

It’s not that cut and dry. It is best to let one of a faith speak for himself.

And ‘Messianic Jews’ speak for evangelical protestant Christians who like a bit of judaica in their lives.

 

[meltzerboy]

‘Messianic Jews’ are evangelical protestant Christians who like a bit of judaica in their lives.

And ‘Messianic Jews’ speak for evangelical protestant Christians who like a bit of judaica in their lives.

I’ve come across different kinds of Messianic Jews. Some identify with Christianity, whereas others identify with Judaism.

 

[Kaninchen]

I’ve come across different kinds of Messianic Jews. Some identify with Christianity, whereas others identity with Judaism.

Well, some Jews are more into Messiah than others but I only know one authoritative source on the subject of Jews who believe in Jesus but don’t consider themselves Christian.

 

[TypesAndShadows]

LOL…I must say I enjoy your posts …I believe the smily you’re looking for is:

[SIGN]I’m stroking a cat on the sofa[/SIGN]

Anyway, lets get back this. I have 3000 posts here. Nothing makes me uncomfortable except maybe (and its a big maybe because I’m very tolerant) dialoguing with those that repetitively don’t read my posts, or other peoples posts in a thread, so your wall of text was read I assure you.

I guess the concepts that you wish to discuss require the answering of some foundational questions.

In order to understand the Incarnation, we must first understand the Prologue and ask some critical questions.

1. What is the Word?
2. How can something “be” God and “be with” God at the same time?

Now try to find a way to correlate this with what Peter says in 1 Peter:

1Pe 1:20
He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake.

Let me also provide some contextual passages from Justin Martyr:

How about we start with these simple steps first and we can explore together further and further along the journey, and I will bring in the Hindu scriptures relating to avatars as we progress. Does that sound ok?

.

Well, I really am interested in what you personally think the Word is, and what you would say the Baha’i teaching is on that, compared to Catholic teaching, rather than us trying to invent together a meaning for the Word which combines other prophets (who I do not believe on matters of spiritual truth) with Christian Scripture and Christian Church Fathers (who are witnesses to the Truth, but not sources of the Truth to me as a Catholic, and I may consider them to be incorrect).

If you really do want to get into Church teaching on this, it might be worth rereading post 27 in the older thread you linked, since this addressed a lot of relevant ideas which came up in this thread. At the time, your only response was to say that you would meditate on it, and you did not otherwise engage with it. At the very end of the thread, you then started asking these questions again. It seems clear from the responses of other Baha’i as well as yourself, with the comments laying out Catholic teaching, that this really is a difference in our beliefs. Which is really interesting, and fine.

But I really do not want to take part in a discussion that assumes we must have the same belief on this point, and then tries to uncover what that is. Nor do I want to take part in a discussion that pretends we both consider all sources as being of equal importance. I would feel dishonest taking part in such a discussion.

So, in quoting Justin Martyr, are you intending to lay out what you believe the Word to be, what Baha’i teach the Word to be, or what you think Catholics believe the Word to be? How are you using him?

Oh, also, if you’re going to quote Justin Martyr, for instance, can you give a reference so I can look it up? I’ve steered clear of him in the past as I had intended to read others first, but if we’re going to use him in this conversation I will want to read all the surrounding context for any quote we use.

I really do really use the word really a lot.

 

[otterman]

In all of this you are avoiding the principle question. Do you believe all that the Catholic Church teaches to be true or do you not? My interpretation of any specific verse of the Bible is irrelevant. You can validly disagree with anything that comes from my interpretation. But it is the Church with which you must reconcile your beliefs. At this point, you are at odds with the teaching of the Catholic Church.

So, I ask you once again. Do you believe all that the Catholic Church professes to be true?

I believe the Catholic Church to be correct in all matters of faith, but on the question of the Islamic faith it is not. By using its own scriptures, the church proves that Islam cannot be from the same divine source as its own.

By using Church doctrine, and in depth research they both clearly show without doubt that the God of the Bible cannot be the god of Islam. It is unfortunate to say the least the Catholic Catechism suggests otherwise, although in places on this subject it could be construed as not being as clear as it should be.