How do pro-women's ordination deal with the 12 male Apostles?

[Dovekin]

Read the story of St Thecla.

 

[Theo520]

Read the story of St Thecla.

She had to dress as a boy to teach the gospel.

Is that why you mentioned her?

 

[Dovekin]

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.vii.xxvi.html

The Acts of Ss. Paul and Thecla is an account from the 1st or 2nd century of a woman converted by St Paul who led an apostolic lifestyle. It gives an early portrait of a woman acting on an apostolic mission, teaching and baptizing.

It is an example of how an early writer thought of a woman as an apostle. Tertullian and others argued against using the story to push for ordaining women, given that she teaches and baptizes. But I am not suggesting that, just that it is a 1st century picture of how a woman would adapt to the role of an apostle, instead of relying on our 21st century ideas.

She is commemorated on Sept 23. (unless that falls on a Sunday, like this year)

 

[Brendan_64]

This is a problem, and one of the things this thread seemed to address. Catholicism is not fideism. Our beliefs have a depth and interconnection that ultimately connect us to the mystery of God. There have to be answers that suffice that go beyond “We say so.”

So there is no such things as binding teaching then? Everything is potentially up for future change?

 

[AlNg]

Everything is potentially up for future change?

Not everything, but many things are up for future change. To give a few examples:
Women are to remain silent in church.
Women are to wear headcovering in church.
It is wrong to drink milk and eat meat at the same time.
Catholics cannot eat a hot dog on Friday under pain of mortal sin.
Catholics must refrain from food at midnight before receiving Holy Communion.
Eastern Orthodox may not receive holy Communion in a Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Brendan_64]

Not everything, but many things are up for future change. To give a few examples:
Women are to remain silent in church.
Women are to wear headcovering in church.
It is wrong to drink milk and eat meat at the same time.
Catholics cannot eat a hot dog on Friday under pain of mortal sin.
Catholics must refrain from food at midnight before receiving Holy Communion.
Eastern Orthodox may not receive holy Communion in a Roman Catholic Church.

And do any of those things form part of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium?

There is a big difference between items of Church discipline and Magisterial teachings. The former can be changed, the latter cannot.

The matter of women not being able to be ordained is not a Church discipline, it is a Magisterial teaching and has been confirmed as to being so. The issue is closed, women cannot be validly ordained, ever

 

[AlNg]

The issue is closed, women cannot be validly ordained, ever

There are Roman Catholic theologians, who have taught at Vatican schools, who disagree with that.

 

[Fauken]

There are Roman Catholic theologians, who have taught at Vatican schools, who disagree with that.

And they would be wrong.

 

[Dovekin]

So there is no such things as binding teaching then? Everything is potentially up for future change?

Not at all what I was saying.

The point is that teaching cannot be isolated. Teachings 1,2,3,4… also mean teachings 1+437; 2+652; 3+861; 4+499+67; etc. The question here was how does the teaching that the 12 are normative in their masculinity mesh with traditional understanding on ordination and apostolicity.

For those who are convinced thar women cannot be ordained, there is no reason to fear the discussion. Nor is there reason to fear among those who believe women can be ordained. The effort is to deepen our understanding of ordination, something everyone should support.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

There are Roman Catholic theologians, who have taught at Vatican schools, who disagree with that.

Roman Catholic theologians are not the ones who decide. There are many theologians out there, some faithful to Catholic teaching and some not faithful to Catholic teaching. Best to stick with those who are faithful to the Church.

The effort is to deepen our understanding of ordination, something everyone should support.

The Church has already defined what ordination is, supporters of women’s ordination are trying to change it, but like others have said, it is a done deal. It can’t be changed. It can be disobeyed and we certainly see that happening by some, but not changed.

 

[Dovekin]

The Church has already defined what ordination is, supporters of women’s ordination are trying to change it, but like others have said, it is a done deal. It can’t be changed. It can be disobeyed and we certainly see that happening by some, but not changed.

As I said, catholicism is not fideist. Faith has depths we can always know better.

 

[slyboots1]

Lydia, whose home was a gathering place for Christians. Lydia had the honor of being Paul’s first European convert. In the book of Acts it talks about her.
Phoebe, a deaconess. Female deacons are mentioned in the salutations of the epistle to the Philippians (1:1), and the first epistle to Timothy (3:8,12).
Junia, an Christian before Paul. “Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.”

Not that these prove there were female ministers in the Bible , but I have heard these women mentioned in reference to woman’s ordination.

 

[Fauken]

As I said, catholicism is not fideist. Faith has depths we can always know better.

There’s deepening our understanding of doctrine, and then there’s completely turning it upside down. The subject of women being ordained would be the latter. And saying that only men can be ordained is not “fideist”.

 

[Thom18]

The Church has maintained that they weren’t ordained, though- they weren’t even considered “male deacons”- so their argument immediately fails.

 

[slyboots1]

Thom my point was that those women are cited by those who espouse Pro Womens ordination. Just means they use those as examples.
I am not pro womens ordination. I don’t think it is Biblical ad agree with the Church.

 

[glencor63]

It really has nothing to do with the twelve apostles being men per say. The prohibition against female priests is based on the fact that the requirement for the artificial lamb is unblemished, unbroken, and male. Jesus was unblemished, unbroken, and male. The priest acts in Persona Christi. During the Mass, he re-presents the sacrifice on the cross. Also, the church is the Bride of Christ. Jesus is the Bridegroom. The bride is female. The bridegroom is male. A male can not marry a female.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Yes, exactly

 

[Dovekin]

There is conversation, and then there is ignoring what people have said.

saying that only men can be ordained is not “fideist”.

True, but it is fideist to say:

The Church has already defined what ordination is, supporters of women’s ordination are trying to change it, but like others have said, it is a done deal. It can’t be changed. It can be disobeyed and we certainly see that happening by some, but not changed.

 

[Dovekin]

the requirement for the artificial [sacrificial?] lamb is unblemished, unbroken, and male. Jesus was unblemished, unbroken, and male. The priest acts in Persona Christi. During the Mass, he re-presents the sacrifice on the cross.

Do you believe a priest has to be unblemished or unbroken? St Augustine argued that a sinful priest can still consecrate the Eucharist. If a blemished priest can act in persona Christi, wouldn’t the same logic say a woman could? What about this argument do you think is valid?

 

[Brendan_64]

For those who are convinced thar women cannot be ordained, there is no reason to fear the discussion.

Who’s afraid of the discussion? However, it is clear that male only ordination is part of the Magisterial teachings of the Church and cannot be changed, ever. Discussion will not change this.