How do Protestants deal with James on faith and works?

[guanophore]

We can not underestimate the power, cultural, political underpinnings of the “conversations”.

Neither can we underestimate the power in the LACK of conversation. When one studies the Great Schism and the details of the Reformation, it seems quite apparent that some humility and communication would have prevented a LOT of problems!

 

[Agathon]

If we did, this thread wouldn’t exist.

 

[jdavani]

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p..._31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

What about this

 

[mcq72]

Neither can we underestimate the power in the LACK of conversation. When one studies the Great Schism and the details of the Reformation, it seems quite apparent that some humility and communication would have prevented a LOT of problems!

Well.humility or rather lack of it is a heart thing as per out of the abundance of the heart…not too mention the quest to retain or gain power.

 

[guanophore]

Well.humility or rather lack of it is a heart thing as per out of the abundance of the heart

Indeed. Wounds of division will heal when those who are divided practice humility, respect, and good communication. This is our part. God will do the rest. He wants unity, as He and the Father are One.

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

Isn’t there a difference between faith and faithfulness?
It may sound like unfruitful semantics, but in God’s Perfect Good Grace,
everyone teaches that the first free gift is faith.
~
So not getting into the numerous nuances of the differing
descriptions of the word ‘faith’ and assertions on it’s empirical meaning,
why would James deliberately use the word ‘belief’ for the Fallen Angels;
didn’t they get the free gift of ‘faith’ to believe of God?
~
Personally, I believe that faithfulness always comes about by
cooperating with God’s Good Grace. When receive the first
free gift of ‘faith’ in comes with the free gift to act upon that grace.
Only upon acting upon that ‘faith’ such as, ‘God help me to observe,
The Covenant to truly love You and my neighbor.’ That prayer,
is a work. Then that prayer results in cooperating with God’s Grace,
in vanity or altruistically. The Fallen Angels, though they have
the free gift of ‘faith’ or ‘belief’ did not use the free gift of Grace
to act upon their faith. Their ‘minds’ did not connect with action.
~
So, ‘justification’ working out Salvation by The Grace of God;
by that Grace, does require cooperation with that Grace in deeds.
How else, can we truly be more and more conformed to be in the
likeness and image of God? Every fiber of each of our beings,
in thought, word, and action must be totally conformed to God
with whom all things are possible.
~
God is no respecter of persons. The Father is leading more than we
know to The Son Jesus Christ by Grace; and who knows how well
each of them would flourish as a Christian, given the same circumstance
as any of us?
The Church teaches that Jesus Christ Saves those,
through no fault of their own do not know Him or His Church
explicitly if by The Grace of God, they are of God’s Goodwill and
act upon it. We do not know everyone’s heart in everyone’s
circumstance in the world. Jesus Christ said to love one another
as He loved us. They will know we are His Disciples by our Covenant
Love for one another. Jesus Christ — absolute knew, because
of the hardships of history their would be grievous mistakes regarding Him.
But He said that those who sin in ignorance will receive less stripes,
though they deserve more but to whom much is given, much is required.
The Leadership of John Paul ii, and those who came before him;
for working toward understanding between Christians, Jews, and Gentiles (the spiritual meaning, those of goodwill who are not yet grafted into the Olive Tree) was so necessary working toward ‘The Days of Awe,’ for all predestined
for Salvation to be reconciled. And John Paul ii and others,
include the children in the womb with this reconciliation. Beside each of
their Baptism by Ordeal — The Bishop of Ilorin, Nigeria, along with
more than two or three gathered in the Name of Jesus Christ;
asked God, with whom all things are possible for those babies to be
Baptized. At least one other Bible Believing Christian Faith Community did the same thing.
~
Just some thoughts.

 

[ReadTheBible]

Scripture teaches on both faith and works. Catholics are bound by what the church tells them to believe. Protestants are not.

James 2 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

It follows Jesus’s own parable with the 3 men the Lord gave talents (Matthew 25). The man who received 1 talent and hid it from the world was cast into outer darkness. The man received the Lord’s blessing and hid it instead of sharing with the world.

The devil believes in God. That doesn’t save him. He chooses to oppose God and and will pay the price. Christ died so that all who believe in him would not perish but have everlasting life. When a human is born again they accept the Christian life. If they do not then how are they any different than the devils who also believe in God? If one is striving to enter heaven on good works it won’t work. Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

The sticking point is no matter how much good works a person does that alone can not get them into heaven. They must believe that Jesus was the son of God who died for their sins. Without believing in Jesus they can not be saved.

Catholics believe 1 meaning of Penance is it’s a work of satisfaction enjoined upon the recipient of the sacrament.

Wouldn’t all Protestants and Catholics believe this is the major difference in the two views? Catholics are told they must do Penance and Mass. Protestants believe they only have to truly ask God for forgiveness in Jesus’s name and they are forgiven. There is no amount of work necessary to absolve the sin.

Jesus clearly even taught how to pray, see Matthew 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

 

[AugustTherese]

Yes. I have the same issue with Mary as “Mediatrix of all Graces”

You’re Catholic, yes?

 

[JonNC]

You’re Catholic, yes?

Seriously. You’re not intending to pursue a critical evaluation of guanophore’s Catholicity. Right?

 

[AugustTherese]

Seriously. You’re not intending to pursue a critical evaluation of guanophore’s Catholicity. Right?

It was a rhetorical question. And, let’s say I was; what’s wrong with that, and, why do you care?

 

[fhansen]

With incredible feats of mental gymnastics.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

Seriously. You’re not intending to pursue a critical evaluation of guanophore’s Catholicity. Right?

It was a rhetorical question. And, let’s say I was; what’s wrong with that, and, why do you care?

I was just looking out for you.
I care because I’ve learned more from guanophore about the Catholic Church over the years than anyone here. But just as importantly, guanophore does it without polemics, triumphalism or judgment.
So, yeah, I care.

 

[AugustTherese]

I care because I’ve learned more from guanophore about the Catholic Church over the years than anyone here

Well, when I have a fellow Catholic stating the he has “issues with Mary as Mediatrix of all graces”, it is incumbent upon me to investigate further for his sake. To publicly confess that you’re Catholic and concurrently have issues with Mary as Mediatrix of all graces, yes, I am going to ask that person if they are in fact, 100% Catholic and not a cafeteria Catholic. Why, because I care about his soul, your soul, and all souls.

But just as importantly, guanophore does it without polemics, triumphalism or judgment

And, almost any type of admonishment on CAF will almost always come off as polemics, triumphalism, and/or judgment because many have a sensitive disposition when being corrected on matters of faith and morals.

 

[JonNC]

Well, when I have a fellow Catholic stating the he has “issues with Mary as Mediatrix of all graces”, it is incumbent upon me to investigate further for his sake. To publicly confess that you’re Catholic and concurrently have issues with Mary as Mediatrix of all graces, yes, I am going to ask that person if they are in fact, 100% Catholic and not a cafeteria Catholic. Why, because I care about his soul, your soul, and all souls.

Why? As I understand it, Mefiatrix of all graces is not declared ex cathedra. It seems guanophore’s concern is about how such a declaration would add to divisions.
Personally, I think the statement can be made about a parent who brings a child to Baptism and church, for example, but for many nonCatholics it will sound like proclaiming a goddess statues to the Blesded Virgin.
I don’t see it as outside mainstream Catholic thought to express such a concern

And, almost any type of admonishment on CAF will almost always come off as polemics, triumphalism, and/or judgment because many have a sensitive disposition when being corrected on matters of faith and morals.

An excuse used by some to forego compassion and charity. It goes both ways.

 

[AugustTherese]

As I understand it, Mefiatrix of all graces is not declared ex cathedra. It seems guanophore’s concern is about how such a declaration would add to divisions

The Second Vatican Council (Lumen gentium ## 61-62), said:

… in suffering with Him as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Savior, in an altogether singular way, by obedience, faith, hope, and burning love, to restore supernatural life to souls. As a result she is our Mother in the order of grace.

This motherhood of Mary in the economy of grace lasts without interruption, from the consent which she gave in faith at the annunciation, and which she unhesitatingly bore with under the cross, even to the perpetual consummation of all the elect. For after being assumed into heaven, she has not put aside this saving function, but by her manifold intercession, she continues to win the gifts of eternal salvation for us. By her motherly love, she takes care of the brothers of her Son who are still in pilgrimage and in dangers and difficulties, until they be led through to the happy fatherland. For this reason, the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adiutrix, and Mediatrix. This however it to be so understood that it takes nothing away, or adds nothing to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator. For no creature can ever be put on the same level with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer…"

 

[JonNC]

This however it to be so understood that it takes nothing away, or adds nothing to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator. For no creature can ever be put on the same level with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer…"

And this is the difficulty to explain. As I said, nonCatholics will not understand this, driving the wedges of division deeper. And as I said, it is not declared ex cathedra.

 

[AugustTherese]

AugustTherese:

This however it to be so understood that it takes nothing away, or adds nothing to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator. For no creature can ever be put on the same level with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer…"

And this is the difficulty to explain. As I said, nonCatholics will not understand this, driving the wedges of division deeper. And as I said, it is not declared ex cathedra.

What’s there not to understand? This isn’t written in Greek and it does not take a prominent theologian to interpret this. Lack of understanding is due to incorrigibility and a lack of docility. Dogma does not need to be solely declared ex cathedra for it to be Dogma.

 

[JonNC]

What’s there not to understand? This isn’t written in Greek and it does not take a prominent theologian to interpret this. Lack of understanding is due to incorrigibility and a lack of docility. Dogma does not need to be solely declared ex cathedra for it to be Dogma.

Thanks for proving my earlier point about charity.

Most nonCatholics couldn’t care less.

 

[guanophore]

Well, when I have a fellow Catholic stating the he has “issues with Mary as Mediatrix of all graces”, it is incumbent upon me to investigate further for his sake.

I think you misunderstood what I said. I did not say I had issues with Mary, or her role in salvation. I have issues with proclaiming dogmas because they seem to drive a greater wedge with our separated brethren.

To publicly confess that you’re Catholic and concurrently have issues with Mary as Mediatrix of all graces, yes, I am going to ask that person if they are in fact, 100% Catholic and not a cafeteria Catholic.

In that case, I am glad that you misunderstood what I said.

Cafeteria Catholic…?

And, almost any type of admonishment on CAF will almost always come off as polemics, triumphalism, and/or judgment because many have a sensitive disposition when being corrected on matters of faith and morals.

I do not find myself in a position to admonish my separated brethren. On the contrary, I focus on admonishing Catholics who do not follow the Teaching of the Catechism with regard to Christians who were raised in other ecclesial communities.

But you are wrong about JonNC, he has been quite open to the views of even the most abrasive Catholics here. In fact, he is more Catholic than many Catholics I know!

He has the humility to invite others to show him where his views contradict the facts. Curiously, I have not seen anyone demonstrate this has been true.

It seems guanophore’s concern is about how such a declaration would add to divisions.

Yes. I have been participating in another thread on Easter Catholicism where the issue of the filoque has been raised. This seemingly miniscule issue has been the source of so much division and animosity. Is it really necessary?

The Second Vatican Council (Lumen gentium ## 61-62), said:

… in suffering with Him as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Savior, in an altogether singular way, by obedience, faith, hope, and burning love, to restore supernatural life to souls. As a result she is our Mother in the order of grace.

Of course. It is proclamation of the title I am referencing.

 

[guanophore]

What’s there not to understand? This isn’t written in Greek and it does not take a prominent theologian to interpret this.

It may be that you have very little experience with those who have been reared in non-Catholic ecclesial communities, so you are unable to grasp why this would be hard for them to understand. In fact, the problem for them is that it is NOT in the Greek! The term, and even the concept does not appear to them to be part of the Apostolic deposit of faith.

Lack of understanding is due to incorrigibility and a lack of docility.

Honestly I can’t experience such a statement as anything other than a judgmental and bigoted point of view.