How do Protestants deal with James on faith and works?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Pathway2
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Yes, this is where we part ways. I would say that we remain in that grace the same we were put in the state of grace. God’s grace not only brings us into Christ and also keeps us in Christ. Salvation (past, present, and future) is all by grace and not by our works, not of ourselves. If our works add to our salvation or keep us “saved” then we are saving ourselves and we are not saved by Christ alone. We are saved by Christ and our ability.
No, I don’t think this is a departure from Catholic belief. Catholics will agree

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

The difference, I think, is that Catholics do not stop reading at v. 9. We believe that the grace that saved us by faith is the same grace that produces these works in us. We believe thtat “we should walk in them” (by grace, through faith) but this is not monergistic, it is synergistic. We work together with Him, walking by grace.

"…work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. "Phil. 2

There is a world of difference between “working out” and “working on”. The grace infused in us at baptism works out His salvation in and through us. It is He who works in us to will and to do work for His pleasure.

Salvation is not based in works, but neither can it be separated from the works.
 
By their fruits you will know them. Judging the hearts and the culpability of hearts is condemned. Calling envy what it is is not ‘knowing the hearts of others’.
You implied that JonNC considers himself Catholic out of envy of the Pope. This would require that you could discern the motives of his heart.
 
But can the process of sanctification be interrupted?
No, because it is God who is doing the work of Sanctification. It is God who began His work in us and who will complete it. It is Christ who is able to keep us from stumbling and present us blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy.
 
You implied that JonNC considers himself Catholic out of envy of the Pope. This would require that you could discern the motives of his heart.
Most everyone outside of the Catholic Church wants to be Pope and bind and loose for himself, out of envy he has for what the Pope is and what authority he has been given, what and whom belongs as ‘Catholic’.
Please, stop putting words into my mouth. You have done this more than once. I said very carefully, ‘[M]ost everyone’, not JonNC. Please, don’t do this again! Thanks!
 
Last edited:
40.png
AugustTherese:
But, as a former Lutheran, yes, many Protestants want to be their own Pope and decide what is and what is not Catholic.
Specifically, identify who has said this?
Nobody! That’s not what I am saying or alluding to. It is an idiomatic expression. Because, when someone, most likely, is not in full communion with the Bishop of Rome, then that person (most likely unwittingly) ‘becomes their own Pope’ so to speak, deciding and declaring themselves to be Catholic and others not to be Catholic, among various doctrines.
 
Nobody! That’s not what I am saying or alluding to. It is an idiomatic expression.
Here’s what you said.
Most everyone outside of the Catholic Church wants to be Pope and bind and loose for himself, out of envy he has for what the Pope is and what authority he has been given,
That’s not idiomatic, and there is nothing alluding to unwittingly.
deciding and declaring themselves to be Catholic and others not to be Catholic, among various doctrines.
You’re the one here saying who is and isn’t Catholic. No one thinking clearly would deny you your Catholicity, and its central role in the Church.
 
40.png
AugustTherese:
Nobody! That’s not what I am saying or alluding to. It is an idiomatic expression.
Here’s what you said.
Most everyone outside of the Catholic Church wants to be Pope and bind and loose for himself, out of envy he has for what the Pope is and what authority he has been given,
That’s not idiomatic, and there is nothing alluding to unwittingly.
This is the last time I will try to explain this. Do you go around thinking or declaring that you want to be Pope? No, you do not. Does any other Protestant do such a thing? No, they do not!

However, when one does not have the authority of the Bishop of Rome that has the final say regarding faith and morals, then that person (hyperbole alert) acts as if they were their own Pope, deciding for themselves what/who is Catholic and what/who is not. This is why, no offense to you or anyone else, many non-Catholics call themselves Catholic or that they claim they are in full communion with the Catholic Church; they want to included in the Church Christ founded while simultaneously holding on to those doctrines that are novel to the full deposit of faith.

Example: If a student gets expelled from Harvard, does that student have the right to claim he is still enrolled at Harvard, or is that up to Harvard?
 
Last edited:
You’re the one here saying who is and isn’t Catholic
Really? Quote one statement of mine where I singled out someone and personally labeled them Catholic or non-Catholic!
 
Last edited:
40.png
AugustTherese:
Really? Quote one statement of mine where I singled out someone and personally labeled them Catholic or non-Catholic!
You are not Catholic, you are Anglican.
Post 427…
Touche! I forgot about that. My bad! Was that from yesterday?

Lol, that was from six days ago…you expect me to remember that? I cannot even remember what I just ate for dinner! 😊
 
Last edited:
This is the last time I will try to explain this. Do you go around thinking or declaring that you want to be Pope? No, you do not. Does any other Protestant do such a thing? No, they do not!
Okay. That’s not what you initially said, but okay.
However, when one does not have the authority of the Bishop of Rome that has the final say regarding faith and morals, then that person (hyperbole alert) acts as if they were their own Pope, deciding for themselves what/who is Catholic and what/who is not.
Clarification accepted. It is still inaccurate, but I understand the point you’re trying to make.
Example: If a student gets expelled from Harvard, does that student have the right to claim he is still enrolled at Harvard, or is that up to Harvard?
It’s an odd analogy, since the vast majority were not in Harvard (in communion with the pope) to begin with, but many were in college (The One True Church) from their baptism
 
Touche! I forgot about that. My bad! Was that from yesterday?

Lol, that was from six days ago…you expect me to remember that? I cannot even remember what I just ate for dinner! 😊
Lol. I didn’t mean it as a “gotcha”. Another one of our intense discussions.
Don’t sweat it.
 
40.png
AugustTherese:
Touche! I forgot about that. My bad! Was that from yesterday?

Lol, that was from six days ago…you expect me to remember that? I cannot even remember what I just ate for dinner! 😊
Lol. I didn’t mean it as a “gotcha”. Another one of our intense discussions.
Don’t sweat it.
Oh, by all means, call me out! I honestly forgot all about that. And, since we’re laughing at each other and having a grand old time… I do consider you a brother and you are a Catholic by your Holy Baptism! Good note to end on?
 
Oh, by all means, call me out! I honestly forgot all about that. And, since we’re laughing at each other and having a grand old time… I do consider you a brother and you are a Catholic by your Holy Baptism! Good note to end on?
Thank you, my sibling in Christ
 
Christ would say otherwise as would Paul. @AugustTherese already covered one passage. Here’s another.

1 Corinthians 9
25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Sanctification is our training, and we go through it to receive the crown of righteousness. We have to overcome our urges in order to receive. Or else we will be disqualified.
 
Last edited:
Please, stop putting words into my mouth. You have done this more than once. I said very carefully, ‘[M]ost everyone’, not JonNC. Please, don’t do this again! Thanks!
Honestly “most everyone outside the CC” does not give two hoots about the Pope. Some think he is the antichrist, and of course they dont want to be like him!

Protestants, along with the EO, don’t believe the Pope was given the authority he claimed for himself, so they just disregard it.

I agree it is about authority. And I agree that believers want to bind and loose for themselves. But one has to realize that this is what they have been taught. They have a distorted perception of the Church, the role of the successor of Peter, and the definition of “binding and loosing”. Believe me, I have heard some doozies!

I don’t agree that they do this out of “envy”. Envy would require that a person acknowledge that the other possesses something they don’t. Since they don’t acknowledge the successor of Peter has these gifts and authority, they can’t qualify for envy.
Because, when someone, most likely, is not in full communion with the Bishop of Rome, then that person (most likely unwittingly) ‘becomes their own Pope’ so to speak,
deciding and declaring themselves to be Catholic and others not to be Catholic, among various doctrines.
I agree, each splintered sect declares themselves by which parts, and how much of the Catholic Teaching they reject. They might not even realize this is what they are doing.

I was on another thread where a poster declared “the CC is not a good fit for me”. It made me realize how so many are afflicted with this mindset. Instead of learning which Church Jesus founded, and conform to it, they are looking for “what fits for me” (based upon what they believe is true.
You’re the one here saying who is and isn’t Catholic.
We can define Catholic doctrine and defend it, but we cannot know the hearts of others. If a person makes certain statements, we can state that they are not consistent with Catholic faith. But none of us, based on what we read on an internet forum, can discern if another person holds Catholic faith.

One problem I have is that there are a vast majority of Catholics do not hold Catholic faith. They are “cafeteria Catholics”. There are many Protestants who are more consistent and faithful to what they have been taught than Catholics. For that reason, I think it behooves us to take the log out of our own eye first.
then that person (hyperbole alert) acts as if they were their own Pope, deciding for themselves what/who is Catholic and what/who is not.
Although I agree with you that people (especially those who were taught Sola Scriptura) do believe they have the right to decide for themselves about doctrine, I don’t think that most of them do it out of envy.
 
they claim they are in full communion with the Catholic Church;
Honestly, I don’t think that most of them care if they are in full communion with the CC. In fact, I think the opposite is true. They believe the CC is in error, and don’t want to be part of it.
they want to included in the Church Christ founded while simultaneously holding on to those doctrines that are novel to the full deposit of faith.
The fact is that anyone who has a valid Trinitarian baptism is considered to be “included in the Church Christ founded”. This is the teaching of the CC.

The fact that they hold on to doctrines that are novel (from the Reformation) notwithstanding. They are embracing what has been passed down to them from their forefathers in the faith, just as we do .
Example: If a student gets expelled from Harvard, does that student have the right to claim he is still enrolled at Harvard, or is that up to Harvard?
No, but Harvard does not have the Sacred Scriptures, through which a person may come to faith in Christ, quite separate from whatever Harvard may believe.
Really? Quote one statement of mine where I singled out someone and personally labeled them Catholic or non-Catholic!
In post 427 you also asserted that the Anglican Tradition has not been accepted by the CC, which is not the case.
 
It’s an analogy.
Indeed, and the point trying to be made is an accurate one.

But if Harvard had published a book that stated “by reading this book, you can come to know how to become a student at Harvard” it would be different.
 
Sanctification is our training, and we go through it to receive the crown of righteousness. We have to overcome our urges in order to receive. Or else we will be disqualified.
The only way to be disqualified is to have been living a lie and proclaim that Christ is in you when He really is not in you. Here is what John Piper, who is a strong Calvinist, says about 1 Cor 9: 27

. Disqualification

That’s what Paul says in verse 27, which is the second way he describes what is at stake in the race of life. He says, “I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.”
“Disqualified!”

Paul will warn the Corinthians in the next chapter (10:12), “Let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.” Now Paul applies it to himself. “If I do not take heed, if I give way to some of the impulses of my body, I could find myself on the slippery slope of disobedience away from Christ, and get to the end of my life and hear the judge of the race say, ‘Disqualified! Yes, you prophesied in my name. Yes, you cast out demons in my name. Yes, you did many mighty works in my name. But you left the racetrack of faith and love and righteousness. You are disqualified. Depart from me. I never knew you (Matthew 7:22–23).’”

The best evidence perhaps that this is what Paul means is the use of the word “disqualified” (adokimos) in 2 Corinthians 13:5. Paul says, “Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you — unless you are disqualified.” The word is exactly the same one from 1 Corinthians 9:27.

To be disqualified means that Christ is not in you. The race has been run in vain. It was a sham.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top