How do Protestants deal with James on faith and works?

[lanman87]

So, those branches that are thrown away and withered, they were never branches?

They are the religious and are in Christ in that they may go to church or take part in religious rituals. So in that sense, they are in Christ. But Christ is not in them. Notice that He doesn’t say that He abides in them. That is the difference between the elect and religious. Between the Sheep and Goats. Both do religious things but only Christ abides in His Disciples

Notice verse 5 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Also please consider what Jesus said earlier in John 6

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

That that the Father has given Christ, the elect, true believers, saved, justified, whatever you want to call them are the ones who are in Christ and Christ is in them. They are the ones made new creations and indwelled with the Holy Spirit. They are the ones who’s heart God has changed and who God gives the grace to persevere till the end.

 

[Agathon]

The only way to be disqualified is to have been living a lie and proclaim that Christ is in you when He really is not in you

John Chrystotom would say otherwise. Here is his commentary:

“For do not, I pray you, suppose that by taking things easily I arrive at this desirable result. For it is a race and a manifold struggle, [111] and a tyrannical nature continually rising up against me and seeking to free itself. But I bear not with it but keep it down, and bring it into subjection with many struggles.” Now this he saith that none may despairingly withdraw from the conflicts in behalf of virtue because the undertaking is laborious. Wherefore he saith, “I buffet and bring into bondage.” He said not, “I kill:” nor, “I punish” for the flesh is not to be hated, but, “I buffet and bring into bondage;” which is the part of a master not of an enemy, of a teacher not of a foe, of a gymnastic master not of an adversary.

“Lest by any means, having preached to others, I myself should be a rejected.”

Now if Paul feared this who had taught so many, and feared it after his preaching and becoming an angel and undertaking the leadership of the whole world; what can we say?

For, “think not,” saith he, “because ye have believed, that this is sufficient for your salvation: since if to me neither preaching nor teaching nor bringing over innumerable persons, is enough for salvation unless I exhibit my own conduct also unblameable, much less to you.”

To be disqualified one must fall away. One must give in to their desires instead of putting on Christ.

 

[Agathon]

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. ”

That that the Father has given Christ, the elect, true believers, saved, justified, whatever you want to call them are the ones who are in Christ and Christ is in them. They are the ones made new creations and indwelled with the Holy Spirit. They are the ones who’s heart God has changed and who God gives the grace to persevere till the end.

We don’t dispute that. We dispute that the reverse is true, that some are predestined to hell. We believe that a person can truly lose his salvation and fall away, that God can blot a person’s name out of the book of life.

 

[AugustTherese]

That that the Father has given Christ, the elect, true believers, saved, justified, whatever you want to call them are the ones who are in Christ and Christ is in them. They are the ones made new creations and indwelled with the Holy Spirit. They are the ones who’s heart God has changed and who God gives the grace to persevere till the end

And…if they do not remain in Christ, they are cut off, withered, and thrown into the fire. But, to imply that they were never in Christ, or never a branch to begin with, is illogical and unbiblical.

 

[lanman87]

And…if they do not remain in Christ, they are cut off, withered, and thrown into the fire. But, to imply that they were never in Christ, or never a branch to begin with, is illogical and unbiblical.

and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me,

So you are saying that He cast out those that come to Him and lose something(someone) that was given Him by the Father.

 

[AugustTherese]

AugustTherese:

And…if they do not remain in Christ, they are cut off, withered, and thrown into the fire. But, to imply that they were never in Christ, or never a branch to begin with, is illogical and unbiblical.

and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me,

So you are saying that He cast out those that come to Him and lose something(someone) that was given Him by the Father.

If you turn your back on Christ; was it Christ that cast you out, or was it you that cast yourself out?

If you cut yourself off from Christ, was it Christ that lost you, or was it you that lost yourself?

 

[lanman87]

If you turn your back on Christ; was it Christ that cast you out, or was it you that cast yourself out?

If you cut yourself off from Christ, was it Christ that lost you, or was it you that lost yourself?

So you are saying that my ability to get lost is more powerful than Christ ability to never lose me?

 

[AugustTherese]

AugustTherese:

If you turn your back on Christ; was it Christ that cast you out, or was it you that cast yourself out?

If you cut yourself off from Christ, was it Christ that lost you, or was it you that lost yourself?

So you are saying that my ability to get lost is more powerful than Christ ability to never lose me?

What about logically answering the posed questions with a yes or no?

Again, Christ will lose no one that has been given to Him. No one, not even the Devil, can come and snatch us away against our will; that is the power of God! However, God does not coerce us into loving him and remaining in Him. He calls us, He gives us grace; however, we must answer and we must accept His grace and use it. Not only that, but we must persevere to the end; why? Because, at anytime we can turn our backs on God and reject Him! That is not power, that is a lack of power, a rejection of it, a loss of it.

“For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt.” Hebrews 6:4-6

They were never really born-again.

Not only were they born again, they have “been enlightened”, not only have they “tasted the heavenly gift”, but they have actually “shared in the holy Spirit” and “tasted the good word of God”. Notice the words, ‘tasted’, ‘shared’, etc. There is no doubt, that given this passage, that those who were born again, can very possibly fall away! Also, take note, that the verse does not say fallen, but ‘fallen away’; as the just man falls seven times a day, but to fall away is succumb to apostasy.

 

[Agathon]

So you are saying that my ability to get lost is more powerful than Christ ability to never lose me?

Your security depends on whether you keep coming to Christ.

 

[lanman87]

Not only were they born again, they have “been enlightened”, not only have they “tasted the heavenly gift”, but they have actually “shared in the holy Spirit” and “tasted the good word of God”. Notice the words, ‘tasted’, ‘shared’, etc. There is no doubt, that given this passage, that those who were born again, can very possibly fall away! Also, take note, that the verse does not say fallen, but ‘fallen away’; as the just man falls seven times a day, but to fall away is succumb to apostasy.

9 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:19

Any who goes out of us was never really with us. They know the truth, have taken part in our services, heard the word of God, and maybe even been baptized and have taken communion, but they were never really part of us because Christ did not abide in them. Christ did not begin a work in them.

Because anyone Christ begins a work in He will complete the work. And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:6

Anyone that Christ abides in will then abide in Christ.

24 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life. 1 John 2:24. Notice it doesn’t say you might abide in the Son and the Father or that you have the ability to abide in the Son and the Father it says you will abide in the Son and the Father.

And Christ will keep them from stumbling. Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, Jude 24.

On another note, the passage in Hebrews makes it clear that it is impossible for those who have fallen away to come back to repentance. Does this mean that an apostate can never come back to Christ and has no hope?

 

[AugustTherese]

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:19

You quoted 1 John 2:19, but not all of it! You left out this part of the exact verse you partially quoted:

"Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number. " 1 John 2:19

This verse is not saying that they were not in Christ, initially, but if they were a true disciple, they would have remained in Christ; hence their ‘desertion’!

They know the truth, have taken part in our services, heard the word of God, and maybe even been baptized and have taken communion, but they were never really part of us because Christ did not abide in them. Christ did not begin a work in them.

Being baptized and have taken communion is Christ beginning a work in you! Christ did abide in them through the Sacraments. However, when faced with the temptation of the world or remaining in Christ’s love, they freely chose to ‘desert’ Christ, and fall away! To say Christ did not begin a work in them is to undermine the Sacraments, especially Holy Baptism.

If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father.

‘If’! If what you heard from the beginning abides in you! The verse says ‘if’, and yes, if you allow the Word to abide in you, and not desert that Word and fall away, yes, then you WILL abide in the Son!

On another note, the passage in Hebrews makes it clear that it is impossible for those who have fallen away to come back to repentance. Does this mean that an apostate can never come back to Christ and has no hope?

Interesting how you say that we cannot fall away, but then state “the passage in Hebrews makes it clear that it is impossible for those who have fallen away”. So, which is it? Is Hebrews right, or is the Protestant interpretation of Scripture right?

No, that’s not what it means. Saint Thomas Aquinas has this to say:

"Then when he says, and then commit apostasy, he shows the difficulty in rising, after one has fallen. Here it should be noted that he does not say, ‘fallen’, but ‘fallen away’, i.e. completely fallen, because if they had merely fallen, it should not be difficult to rise: ‘A just man shall fall seven times, and shall rise again’ (Pr. 24:16). But if the Apostle had said it is impossible for those who have fallen away to rise again, then it might be said that in this he was signifying how extremely difficult it is to rise, both because of sin and because of pride, as in the devils. But because he says that those who have once fallen away cannot be renewed unto penance, and there is no sin in this world that man cannot repent of, there must be another explanation.

 

[AugustTherese]

Continued:

Hence, it should be noted that a certain Novatian, who was a priest of the church in Rome, made this the occasion of his error. For he declared that no one could rise to penance after baptism. But this opinion is false, as Athanasius says in a letter to Serapion, because Paul himself received the incestuous Corinthians, as shown in 2 Cor (chap. 2); and likewise in Gal (4:19), because he says: ‘My little children, of whom I am in labor again, until Christ be formed in you.’ Therefore, it must be understood, as Augustine says, that he does not say that it is impossible to repent, but that it is impossible to be renewed again, i.e., baptized: ‘By the laver of regeneration and renovation of the Holy Spirit’ (Tit 3:5). For a man could never repent in such a way that he could be baptized again. The Apostle says this because according to the Law, the Jews were baptized frequently, as is shown in Mark (chap. 7). Consequently, it was in order to remove that error that the Apostle says this."

 

[lanman87]

Those that the writer of Hebrews is talking about are referred to by Christ in the parable of the sower and the seed. Notice verse 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

18 “Hear then the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. 20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. 23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”

Some people hear the Gospel and reject it immediately. They are the ones “sown along the path”.
Some hear the Gospel and respond. They have an emotional reaction and maybe say the “Sinners Prayer” and start going to church. However, when things get tough they fall away. They are the ones sown on the rocky soil. The third group hears the word and intellectually understand it and dabble in “Christianity”. But ultimately they love the things of the World.

None of those three groups have been regenerated. The second and third group tasted but decided that Christ wasn’t for them. They ministered and “Shared in the Holy Spirit” in that they saw the Spirit work and move and maybe even did Ministry that was guided by the Holy Spirit, and they fully understand the Gospel and their own sinfulness and need for redemption. Yet they still fall away. The reason they fall away is that they weren’t really “In Christ and Christ in them”. They were testing the waters of Christianity based on cultural or social reasons. And because their hearts were rocky and/or full of thorns they never fully embraced Christ.

However, the ones that fell on the good soil are the elect, the saved, justified. They are the ones who have been regenerated by the Spirit and who fully embrace Christ and Christ lives in them. They are the ones the Father has given the son and who Christ will never lose.

 

[AugustTherese]

However, when things get tough they fall away.

Exactly! Did Christ lose those that fall away?

 

[lanman87]

You quoted 1 John 2:19, but not all of it! You left out this part of the exact verse you partially quoted:

Actually, that is the entire verse from the ESV.

This verse is not saying that they were not in Christ, initially, but if they were a true disciple, they would have remained in Christ; hence their ‘desertion’!

Exactly, true disciples will remain in Christ. Those who have been regenerated by the spirit and are born again by the Spirit and given the gift of faith are the true disciples. Those that fall away were not true disciples, despite being baptized and taking part in the sacraments (Catholic) and making a profession of faith and participating in worship and service (Evangelical) .

Being baptized and have taken communion is Christ beginning a work in you! Christ did abide in them through the Sacraments.

Being regenerated by the Spirit and having a personal faith in Christ is when Christ begins a good work in you. The Sacraments without faith are just water and bread.

‘If’! If what you heard from the beginning abides in you! The verse says ‘if’, and yes, if you allow the Word to abide in you, and not desert that Word and fall away, yes, then you WILL abide in the Son!

What you heard from the beginning is the Gospel message to believe and trust in Christ and live for him, that you are adopted and indwelled by the Spirit and are a Child of God. If that (Christ) lives within then you WILL abide in the Father and the Son.

 

[lanman87]

Exactly! Did Christ lose those that fall away?

No, only those in the good soil are the redeemed and belong to Christ. The others, on the rocky soil and who let the thorns deceive them never had a true faith. They never really trusted Christ. They just dabbled.

 

[AugustTherese]

Exactly, true disciples will remain in Christ

If we are called to remain in Christ, then it is possible not to remain in Him. True disciples remain in Him, while heretics, schismatics, and apostates do not remain in him. But, to suggest that heretics, schismatics, and apostates were never in Christ to begin with goes against the logic of being exhorted to remain in Christ.

 

[AugustTherese]

The others, on the rocky soil and who let the thorns deceive them never had a true faith.

Why do you add “never had a true faith”!

“The seed sown on rocky ground is the one who hears the word and receives it at once with joy. But he has no root and lasts only for a time. When some tribulation or persecution comes because of the word, he immediately falls away.” Matthew 13: 20-21

The “seed sown” is faith. God sows faith in our hearts. However, when faith only lasts only for a time, and when some tribulation or persecution comes, he immediately ‘falls away’! Falls away from what? He falls away from faith!

 

[lanman87]

Why do you add “never had a true faith”!

Because true faith is a life altering faith
True faith is a trusting faith
True faith is a persevering faith
True faith causes us to war with the flesh
True faith changes what is important to us
True faith endures
True faith seeks after God and His righteousness
True faith has roots so that it endures troubles and persecutions.
True faith takes our eyes off the things of the world and puts our eyes on Christ.

 

[AugustTherese]

Because true faith is a life altering faith
True faith is a trusting faith
True faith is a persevering faith
True faith causes us to war with the flesh
True faith changes what is important to us
True faith endures
True faith seeks after God and His righteousness
True faith has roots so that it endures troubles and persecutions.
True faith takes our eyes off the things of the world and puts our eyes on Christ.

Great! But, to say that we can’t fall away is unbiblical.