How do protestants explain history

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The Catholic church was founded by Jesus himself at the very beginning, and not by humans in the 19th century. The Catholic church goes by the teachings of Jesus himself and apostolic tradition which is also part of God’s word.

The Catholic church does not claim to be the world’s only Christians as the ‘churches of Christ’ does. We fully acknowledge there are other Christians and call them ‘separated brothers’.

Catholics do not claim to be the “one and only universal church”. But even if we did we would have much REAL historic evidence on our side, as opposed to the mistruths contained in the Great Controversy.

The church was founded by Jesus Christ in the first century and not by Alexander Campbell in the 20th or Ellen White in the 19th century.
Whereas before you were a Campbellian (?) now you are a Catholic. All you did was replace one thing for another of the same! You think you changed but you have not. Apes can be trained to mimic.

Not that I am anti-Catholic in the sense of being unappreciative of some things: for example, when I first came back to the Lord at the “Life in the Spirit” meetings I attended under that wonderful man, Father Mutart, we heard angels singing. I have never heard that in any Protestant church.

And yes, the Catholic church does claim to be the Universal church and you should check that out more thoroughly.

Every religion claims it is “the one”.

And Jesus did not establish the Catholic church, nor the many Protestant churches because both are lacking:

“Teacher, we know that you are true, and teach the way of God in truth; nor do You care about anyone, for You do not regard the person of men.” (Matt. 22:16, read almost the exact same words in Mark 12:14)

“Thus says the Lord: ‘Cursed is the man who trusts in man and makes flesh his strength, whose heart departs from the Lord’.” (Jeremiah 17:5)
 
I find it fascinating that there are Lutherans today who profess to believe in Apostolic Succession, apparently recognizing the importance of the concept in maintaining Christian unity. What is ironic is that, as we will see, Luther himself was hardly a ‘fan’ of Apostolic Succession, and in fact in the early portion of his ‘Reforming career’, was opposed to anything other than the priesthood of all believers. In this belief, he obviously opposed any concept of Apostolic Succession, as is evidenced in the following tract of 1520.

To the Christian Nobility of the German Nation

Respecting the Reformation of the Christian Estate

“It follows then, that between layman and priests, princes and bishops, or as they call it, between spiritual and temporal persons, the only real difference is one of office and function, and not of estate: for they are all of the same Spiritual Estate, true priests, bishops and Popes, though their functions are not the same: just as among priests and monks every man has not the same functions. And this St. Paul says (Rom. xii.; 1 Cor. xii.) and St. Peter (1 Peter ii.); “we being many are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.” Christ’s body is not double or twofold, one temporal, the other spiritual. He is one head, and he has one body.

We see then that just as those that we call spiritual, or priests, bishops or popes, do not differ from other Christians in any other or higher degree, but in that they are to be concerned with the word of God, and the sacraments—that being their work and office—in the same way the temporal authorities hold the sword and the rod in their hands to punish the wicked and to protect the good. A cobbler, a smith, a peasant, every man has the office and function of his calling, and yet all alike are consecrated priests and bishops, and every man in his office must be useful and beneficial to the rest, that so many kinds of work may all be united into one community: just as the members of the body all serve one another.

“…there were no higher and lesser states of perfection, but in every occupation man could live up to a vocation from God, or, put differently, every Christian believer as a priest……(Church) hierarchy hereby received a new meaning, but at the same time was attacked from the sacramental angle……Luther found no special priesthood in the New Testament, and in only three sacraments, baptism, the Lord’s Supper, a penance……….Once hierarchy and sacraments were thrown out as elements irrelevant to the Christian Church, and the faith of all believers was made the exclusive substance of religion, the reformation of Christianity could not be confined to the rebuilding of ecclesiastical institutions or to the mere reform of education; the whole of Christian life within the ‘respublica Christiania’ had to be reoriented.” Hajo Holborn, “A History of Modern Germany, The Reformation”, pg. 142-3

One has to wonder whether Luther would have embarked on his ‘reformation’ if he had realized going in how drastic the ‘reforms’ were going to end up being.

“In a third passage (in Address to the German Nobility) Luther gave additional ground, that the magistrates were fellow Christians sharing the priesthood of all believers, from which some modern historians have inferred that Luther would concede to the magistrate the role of Church reformer only if he were himself a convinced Christian, and then only in an emergency. But no such qualification is stated in this tract. The priesthood of all believers itself was made to rest upon the lower grade of faith implicit in the baptized infant.” Bainton, pg. 144

In other words, the only qualification for the ‘priesthood’ according to Luther was that one be baptized. Obviously this was a VERY watered down ‘set’ of requirements for the priesthood. And of course if the only definition of the priesthood was the priesthood of all believers, then of course there was no such thing as the office of Bishops who were to oversee the priests, priests of course like Luther. It goes without saying that if there was no such thing as bishops, then the concept of the Bishop of Rome as being over the other Bishops and also over the priests (like Luther), was illegitimate. Through this series of doctrinal ‘devices’, Luther had managed to develop a radical theology which resulted in his ‘authority’ to proclaim himself to be an authority without any superior, other than his own personal interpretations of Scripture. This ‘system’ worked out really well, UNTIL other people began to use the ‘rights’ that Luther had inadvertently gained for them.

When Luther revolted against the Church he had to justify that revolt. He did so by denying that there was any legitimate hierarchy at all. As the Holborn quote states, Luther ‘found no special priesthood in the NT”, which of course, makes no sense to anyone even slightly familiar with the NT.

The Catholic Church also teaches that all Christians are ‘priests’ but in a different manner than did Luther. The Church also teaches that in addition to the ‘priesthood of all believers’, there is ALSO an ordained priesthood, which includes an ordained hierarchy, with Bishops as overseers of the priests and the Bishop of Rome above the Bishops. Luther’s ‘priesthood of all believers’, at least initially in his Revolt, was the ONLY definition he held to regarding priests.
Topper

You seem to have an intense antipathy toward Luther/ Lutherans but I wish you could see that we are all Catholics. I came across this video from the Church of St Peter and St Paul where Martin Luther was baptized. It is a pilgrimage, of sorts for those renewing baptismal vows and an historic site for Lutherans.

.youtube.com/watch?v=iOO8Mls6dTk
 
Topper

You seem to have an intense antipathy toward Luther/ Lutherans but I wish you could see that we are all Catholics.
Not to split hairs, But around here most of us would say you’re catholic … I.e. if you aren’t in the Roman Communion then you aren’t Catholic.
Let me scream back…I think you need to go back and re-read the entire thread. I was not questioning the “everyday is a Sabbath” to those that are not bound by tradition. We were speaking about (and the topic of this thread), how protestants explain history
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Which is rather interesting … Mostly I would expect those explanations to be different from how Catholics explain history, but here we’ve seen similarity as well – and not just among Anglican and Lutheran (catholic) posters, but also among Calvinist and Evangelical posters.
 
Not to split hairs, But around here most of us would say you’re catholic … I.e. if you aren’t in the Roman Communion then you aren’t Catholic.

Which is rather interesting … Mostly I would expect those explanations to be different from how Catholics explain history, but here we’ve seen similarity as well – and not just among Anglican and Lutheran (catholic) posters, but also among Calvinist and Evangelical posters.
Yes, Peter, I agree with the little ‘c’ in Catholic but feel it must be qualified when referring to Lutherans. Many Christians profess the ecumenical creeds but do not believe in one of the most basic absolutes of our faith, Christ’s literal “Presence” in the Mass. The history of the Church is that the very parish where Martin Luther was baptized is the same parish today. People renewing baptismal vows whether they be Catholic or Lutheran.
luther2017.de/en/orte/20373/church-st-peter-and-st-paul-eisleben
 
Yes, Peter, I agree with the little ‘c’ in Catholic but feel it must be qualified when referring to Lutherans. Many Christians profess the ecumenical creeds but do not believe in one of the most basic absolutes of our faith, Christ’s literal “Presence” in the Mass. The history of the Church is that the very parish where Martin Luther was baptized is the same parish today. People renewing baptismal vows whether they be Catholic or Lutheran.
luther2017.de/en/orte/20373/church-st-peter-and-st-paul-eisleben
Why not cross the Tiber?

We can’t be double minded, my friend. We are either Catholic or catholic. We can’t have both.
 
Let me scream back…I think you need to go back and re-read the entire thread. I was not questioning the “everyday is a Sabbath” to those that are not bound by tradition. We were speaking about (and the topic of this thread), how protestants explain history.

The topic of my conversations was that the *original *Sabbath as celebrated by Jesus and the Apostles, would have been a Saturday but change was initiated by Constantine to Sundays by virtue of his pagan worship of the sun.
The whole point of Romans 14 is we shouldn’t be arguing over this day or that.
 
It seems that it’s not a matter of “how Protestants explain history” but why don’t Protestants “interpret” history or draw the same conclusions as Catholics.

Protestant views are “dismissed” as “not correct” by Catholics
 
Let me scream back…I think you need to go back and re-read the entire thread. I was not questioning the “everyday is a Sabbath” to those that are not bound by tradition. We were speaking about (and the topic of this thread), how protestants explain history.

The topic of my conversations was that the *original *Sabbath as celebrated by Jesus and the Apostles, would have been a Saturday but change was initiated by Constantine to Sundays by virtue of his pagan worship of the sun.
If Constantine changed the worship to Sunday, then why was St.Justin Martyr giving an apologetic for why they come together for worship on Sunday, around A.D.150, which implies that Sunday worship was already a standard norm?

St.Justin Martyr A.D. 150
Chapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians.


And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things.

And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost.

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.

Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead.

For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. .**

So how could Constantine have initiated Sunday worship by virtue of his pagan sun worship, if it was already common practice, as St. Justin Martyr attest to, more than 150 years before Constantine?

God bless!
 
It seems to me that when I read the Gospels accounts, especially Acts, the Apostles while they did pray in the Temple, they also worshiped on Sunday as the first day when Jesus rose from the dead as the new creation which Jesus said at the Last Supper a new and everlasting covenant which it seems to me to replace the old covenant that the Passover represented.
 
The problem with most Protestants and their ignorance of the Bible, history and apostolic succession specifically is generally not their fault but should be mostly attributed to others who hate Christ’s church and do their best to mislead people or others out of sheer arrogance and vanity try to create their own version of Christ’s plan.

Granted, there are significant Protestants who deny what Christ has made in the Catholic Church but generally over time with a sincere search for Christ they seek out the Catholic faith. Nonetheless, there are many other good protestants who have a real fear of the Catholic Church which is sustained by their pastors and popular media that paints us as evil.

My message to my fellow Protestants is that if your goal as a Christian is to only distinguish yourself as a non Catholic, you are doing something wrong.

BTW, my wife is evangelical protestant and I don’t believe she would ever convert due to her indoctrination. Paz.
 
It seems that it’s not a matter of “how Protestants explain history” but why don’t Protestants “interpret” history or draw the same conclusions as Catholics.

Protestant views are “dismissed” as “not correct” by Catholics
I suggest
A- reading the early church fathers and the didache
B- being aware of ancient churches such as Goa India and Ethiopia that had no roman influence but are from the 1st century extremely close in Roman Catholic traditions and nothing like American Protestantism
 
I suggest
A- reading the early church fathers and the didache
B- being aware of ancient churches such as Goa India and Ethiopia that had no roman influence but are from the 1st century extremely close in Roman Catholic traditions and nothing like American Protestantism
Doesn’t the Didache also imply the recipient of Baptism is an adult with the rules on Fasting and things being explained fully prior to the event? It would have been beneficial if it mentioned infants. Why do you think this was left out?
 
A huge thing for me was the bible talks of unity over and over and over again and god is a god of order while Protestantism is a religion of dis order by nature so within a couple of years of knowing jesus was god I was really leaning towards the catholic faith because of this and other issues
 
Doesn’t the Didache also imply the recipient of Baptism is an adult with the rules on Fasting and things being explained fully prior to the event? It would have been beneficial if it mentioned infants. Why do you think this was left out?
Because the issue of infant baptism was hardly clear cut in the early church.

Also the Didache advises congregations to responsibly elect faithful bishops and presbyters. Congregational election of presbyters and bishops was normative practice for the early church. That has long been jettisoned by the Catholic Church and other denominations.

Whoever wrote the Didache was much more like today’s liturgical Protestants.
 
It seems that it’s not a matter of “how Protestants explain history” but why don’t Protestants “interpret” history or draw the same conclusions as Catholics.

Protestant views are “dismissed” as “not correct” by Catholics
Isn’t the reverse just as true (assuming you spend time on Protestant forums)?
 
I suggest
A- reading the early church fathers and the didache
B- being aware of ancient churches such as Goa India and Ethiopia that had no roman influence but are from the 1st century extremely close in Roman Catholic traditions and nothing like American Protestantism
Actually when the Portuguese arrived in Goa they found the Christians there to be rife with error and superstition.
 
Because the issue of infant baptism was hardly clear cut in the early church.

Also the Didache advises congregations to responsibly elect faithful bishops and presbyters. Congregational election of presbyters and bishops was normative practice for the early church. That has long been jettisoned by the Catholic Church and other denominations.

Whoever wrote the Didache was much more like today’s liturgical Protestants.
They had female bishops? 😉
 
It seems that it’s not a matter of “how Protestants explain history” but why don’t Protestants “interpret” history or draw the same conclusions as Catholics.

Protestant views are “dismissed” as “not correct” by Catholics
If the view is not supported by historical evidence, not only the Protestant view is dismissed but any other view as well.
 
Actually when the Portuguese arrived in Goa they found the Christians there to be rife with error and superstition.
That is what some times happens away from the Roman Catholic Church but they did the following

1- baptized babies
2- believed in the real presence of the Eucharist
3- believed in all 7 sacraments
4-believed you could loose your salvation no once saved always saved
5- believed marriage is permanent
 
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