How do protestants explain history

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House_Harkonnen said:
No, you’re incorrect about the real presence, and the indissoluble nature of marriage. The Goa Christians believed the Eucharist was a symbol of Christ, and marriage was dissolvable. Those where errors that the Goa Christians believed prior to the Portuguese arrival. They called a synod to correct the errors called the Synod of Diamper. Research the synod and their condemnations.
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I will look into that but it’s hard for me to believe because their are/where many that rejected the primacy of the pope in India and they believed in 7 sacraments. Anyways why are you Lutheran we have so much in common this thread is more directed to American evangelicals,
 
Publisher said:
As friend Isaiah wrote when our views collide one of us is wrong…not completely wrong of course as we are viewing the same “evidence” and weighing the " preponderance" of “evidence”" to our best ability and to each of our own personal satisfaction. It the “personal weighing” that seems to separate us…it is T this junction we make personal choices concerning evidence…whether Catholic. Quaker. Orthodox, or Profestant of any other stripe…our choices ARE personal.
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Christ’s proclamation to Peter is real, hence your problematic predicament. We are praying for you guys of course.
 
Regarding Lutherans, Apostolic succession ended with Luther.

Certainly, we Catholics have had heretic leaders like Luther, but our beliefs have never hinged on them, unlike the Lutheran Church.

This is not to say that Lutherans cannot be saved, after all they believe in Christ, the problem arises when they see the truth of what Christ has made in the Catholic Church and still reject it.
 
Catolico65 said:
**Regarding Lutherans, Apostolic succession ended with Luther. **
Certainly, we Catholics have had heretic leaders like Luther, but our beliefs have never hinged on them, unlike the Lutheran Church.

This is not to say that Lutherans cannot be saved, after all they believe in Christ, the problem arises when they see the truth of what Christ has made in the Catholic Church and still reject it.
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What you claim is entirely false and doesn’t represent how the Roman Catholic Church views apostolic succession in the Lutheran Church.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
What you claim is entirely false and doesn’t represent how the Roman Catholic Church views apostolic succession in the Lutheran Church.
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When you guys submit to the Pope you can claim Apostolic succession. We are waiting my friend.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
So Orthodox Christians must “submit” to Rome to have apostolic succession?
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*Catechism 838

“The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.”322 Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”*

I believe the “little” part referenced in the final sentence is the recognition of the Pope.
 
Here’s a section of the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue on the issue of Apostolic Succession:
  1. The Roman Catholic Church has preserved the succession of episcopal consecrations; this succession was broken in continental Lutheranism, maintained in parts of Nordic Lutheranism, and has been reclaimed by the ELCA. What is the significance of either preserving or breaking this succession? That question must not be isolated and made to bear the entire weight of a judgment on a church’s ministry. Whether a particular minister or church serves the church’s apostolic mission does not depend only upon the presence of such a succession of episcopal consecrations, as if its absence would negate the apostolicity of the church’s teaching and mission.135 Recent ecumenical discussions of episcopacy and succession do not remove our former disagreements, but they do place them in a richer and more complex context in which judgments made exclusively on the basis of the presence or absence of a succession of consecrations are less possible.
    usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/koinonia-of-salvation.cfm
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EvangelCatholic said:
Here’s a section of the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue on the issue of Apostolic Succession:
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You guys will always be “separated brothers” until you accept the Pope. We are awaiting with open arms. Nonetheless, we love all our Christian brothers, but the truth is the truth.
 
Here is history both Catholic and Protestant:

Local church starts with foot firmly planted in the Gospel and begins to grow. Overtime the institution becomes corrupted by the World and Heresy creeps into the organization. The Organization splits and some peopled continue on their corrupt path while other start a new local church firmly planted on the Gospel. The circle starts again and repeats.
The new church is persecuted by the old.

We are blessed with a Gospel that doesn’t bend. Unfortunately, we are flawed people.

We all must be vigilant and look at our local church practices and judge whether our organization is inline with the Gospel.

A false church is full or unrepentant sinners and often persecutes other Christ followers:

In 2 Corinthians 11:26 Paul refers to the perils of the false brethren. The Catholic Church and others are guilty of this (Inquisition, witch trials, etc.). Today the LA Diocese is still covering the sins of their priests. There are plenty of examples both Catholics and Non Catholics taking advantage of their position for sinful lusts. We are all injured by these crimes and coverups.

The Scripture is the corrective force for our doctrinal mistakes. 2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

If you don’t have faith in the Gospel then you just have religion and your faith is lax.
Start with the sinners prayer, repent and take Jesus as your resurrected Lord and Savior (Rom 10:9). Accept his offer of salvation by Grace through faith. (Eph 2:8) Ask the Holy Spirit to guide you and lead you to strengthen your church or to join with another who shares your convictions.
 
Mike_SoCal said:
Here is history both Catholic and Protestant:

Local church starts with foot firmly planted in the Gospel and begins to grow. Overtime the institution becomes corrupted by the World and Heresy creeps into the organization. The Organization splits and some peopled continue on their corrupt path while other start a new local church firmly planted on the Gospel. The circle starts again and repeats.
The new church is persecuted by the old.

We are blessed with a Gospel that doesn’t bend. Unfortunately, we are flawed people.

We all must be vigilant and look at our local church practices and judge whether our organization is inline with the Gospel.

A false church is full or unrepentant sinners and often persecutes other Christ followers:

In 2 Corinthians 11:26 Paul refers to the perils of the false brethren. The Catholic Church and others are guilty of this (Inquisition, witch trials, etc.). Today the LA Diocese is still covering the sins of their priests. There are plenty of examples both Catholics and Non Catholics taking advantage of their position for sinful lusts. We are all injured by these crimes and coverups.

The Scripture is the corrective force for our doctrinal mistakes. 2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

If you don’t have faith in the Gospel then you just have religion and your faith is lax.
Start with the sinners prayer, repent and take Jesus as your resurrected Lord and Savior (Rom 10:9). Accept his offer of salvation by Grace through faith. (Eph 2:8) Ask the Holy Spirit to guide you and lead you to strengthen your church or to join with another who shares your convictions.
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Hi Mike, this is an accurate analysis of human behavior within the Christian community.
The Catholic situation is incredibly complex because of their tenure in history, their obedience to their inheritance, and subjection to scripture. It is nearly impossible to grasp all of those influences at one instance and derive a single rule, I can hardly do as much with my own local church which is barely 120 years old and has merely the teensiest demographic.
My attitude would be to be patient with Catholics and not ‘jump on their case’ when they have troubles. Maybe our Lord would prefer we help them or at least not work against them in every instance. It works the other way too.

In my lifetime abortion has become common practice. When I was a young adult the practice was unknown, but pressures to change our culture were arising. Roman Catholics went to the defense sometimes at great sacrifice, hardly anyone else stood by them. Roe V Wade happened and now we are experiencing the backwash of this unGodly and murderous practice of abortion. Now many protestants are joining the cause as well we should. What if we had been a little more forthcoming 50 years ago and stood bye in solidarity with Catholics being faithful to God?
 
House_Harkonnen said:
Well, we have folks that are more or less bishops. We just don’t call them that. That would sound way too Catholic. That’s a bad word, please don’t say it around me.
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Then what are you doing on a CATHOLIC Forum???, God Bless, Memaw
 
steido01 said:
I would say that they aren’t even Jon’s views. They have always been that of Lutheranism, just as Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism long for reunion amidst the often venomous polemics that we sinful creatures are so quick to spew. All sides act with limited charity at times, but the reality, at least for us Lutherans, remains essentially as Melancthon stated in his subscription to the Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope:
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Regarding the Pope I hold that, if he would allow the Gospel, his superiority over the bishops which he has otherwise, is conceded to him by human right also by us, for the sake of the peace and general unity of those Christians who are also under him, and may be under him hereafter.
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Hi Don,
It is this quote from Melanchthon that answers the question about lifting the charge of anti-Christ against the office of the papacy. It recognizes his role as leader of the bishops, and closes any doubt if confessional Lutherans could recognize the primacy of the pope. We could, indeed, if reconciliation were to occur.

Jon
 
Memaw said:
Originally Posted by House Harkonnen
Well, we have folks that are more or less bishops. We just don’t call them that. That would sound way too Catholic. That’s a bad word, please don’t say it around me.
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Good question.

Maybe he’s trying to build up an immunity … For now he’ll just read the word but let anyone say it around him.
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