How do protestants explain the 1500 year gap.

[House_Harkonnen]

OK. I understand. Sorry that you felt so miserable as a Catholic.

Clement of Rome did not belong to the “Roman” CC? All of those church leaders were “Roman” Catholics. For example, Augustine said: “Rome has spoken; the case is closed” from his Sermons 131:10.

If they did not belong to the church that I belong to, then which church in the world today, did they belong to, back then?

Not Roman Catholics in the modern sense.

I see the Roman Catholic Church as one of the most doctrinally developed denominations we all sorts of new dogmas showing up over the centuries.

They may have belonged to the denomination that would later become the modern RCC denomination, but many of the catholic distinctive dogmas were absent.

 

[CaliLobo]

Thousand of denominations in the first century, along side the Catholic curch? For example…?

These things do not prove what you say about doctrinal truth, or the lack of doctrinal truth in the CC; they simply show that Jesus was right when he said that scandals within His church are unavoidable, scandals we find in every church; not just the CC:

You misread my post. I said there were NOT thousands of denominations back then.

Your answer is yes to the following? OK. Let’s say for the moment that you are right and the Evangelical churches are booming, while the Catholic Church is shrinking: is that reason enough to belong to one of the Evangelical churches?

I answered yes.

If so which one?

The churches in which God is evidenced by the faith and works of their members.

Do they all represent the truths taught by Christ?

Yes. Jesus prayed for unity among believers. We know to distinguish the essential doctrines from the nonessential doctrines.

Does that include the Catholic Church?

Sure, I guess. I don’t understand your point.

 

[Novocastrian]

For example…?

Unam Sanctam and Vatican I are the obvious examples.

Rome’s teaching is not immutable. In 1520 the Pope was busy condemning the following opinion:

1. That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.

Leo X, Exsurge Domine, 15th June 1520

I believe that Rome no longer condemns it.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Are you suggesting that Ignatius of Antioch belonged to the 1st-century Catholic Church, but not the present-day Catholic Church: “Wherever the Bishop appears, there let the multitude of the people be; just as where Christ Jesus is, there is the catholic church”?

Ignatius of Antioch, c. 111 AD, Letter to the Smyrneans 8

If so then where can I go, today, to find the Catholic Church that Ignatius belonged to?

I am saying that the Roman Catholic Church over the centuries added all sorts of new doctrine, so much that the church that Iggy was a member of looks little like the modern RC denomination. He might have been a part of the church that would later become the RC denomination, but when I read the ECFS I see more liturgical Protestantism than anything else.

 

[joe371]

Unam Sanctam and Vatican I are the obvious examples.

Rome’s teaching is not immutable. In 1520 the Pope was busy condemning the following opinion:

I believe that Rome no longer condemns it.

So very sad!!! However, the Catholic Church was not speaking doctrinally; these statements were not moral teachings, protected by infallibility. Those leaders, who condoned such evil things… Hope they asked Jesus for forgiveness, for His Mercy is endless.

 

[joe371]

I am saying that the Roman Catholic Church over the centuries added all sorts of new doctrine, so much that the church that Iggy was a member of looks little like the modern RC denomination. He might have been a part of the church that would later become the RC denomination, but when I read the ECFS I see more liturgical Protestantism than anything else.

According to you, they added doctrine? OK. Who is Iggy? LOL…

The ECF’s led me to the Catholic Church. Examples of the ECFs promoting liturgical Protestantism?

Is it safe to say that Ignatius of Antioch belonged to the 1st-century Catholic Church, which is the present-day Catholic Church, although altered doctrinally speaking, as per your belief? “Wherever the Bishop appears, there let the multitude of the people be; just as where Christ Jesus is, there is the catholic church”?

 

[joe371]

CaliLobo

You misread my post. I said there were NOT thousands of denominations back then.

Oops…Sorry…

The churches in which God is evidenced by the faith and works of their members.

God is evidenced by the faith and works of the members of the Catholic Church - right?.

Yes. Jesus prayed for unity among believers. We know to distinguish the essential doctrines from the nonessential doctrines.

All Evangelical Churches represent the truths taught by Christ, regarding the essential stuff? OK. However, there is no universally accepted list of what is considered essential and what is not…

, I guess. I don’t understand your point.

God is evidenced by the faith and works of the members of the Catholic Church, but the Catholic Church, unlike all of the Evangelical Churches, does not represent the truths taught by Christ?

 

[CaliLobo]

God is evidenced by the faith and works of the members of the Catholic Church - right?

Individual Catholics, yes. But Catholic parishes as a whole pale in comparison compared to Evangelical churches. Evangelical churches run circles around Catholics when it comes to teaching, preaching, Bible reading, evangelism, missions, and welcoming new members.

Combined with the list I posted earlier (Sex scandal, Crusades, Improper catechesis, Meddling into the politics of Europe, Conquest of the Americas, Oppression of the rights of gays and women, Oppressing the sexual and reproductive freedom of couples, Administering sacraments while neglecting community, Churches that don’t say hi to visitors, Parishoners that lack biblical knowledge, No focus on missions and evangelism)… it is hard to see God in the Catholic Church.

joe371:

All Evangelical Churches represent the truths taught by Christ, regarding the essential stuff? OK. However, there is no universally accepted list of what is considered essential and what is not…

The Bible has enough information to allow one to have a relationship with Christ. Everything else that the Bible isn’t clear on… the lack of clarity should not be a cause of division among believers. We are free to agree to disagree.

God is evidenced by the faith and works of the members of the Catholic Church, but the Catholic Church, unlike all of the Evangelical Churches, does not represent the truths taught by Christ?

See above.

 

[joe371]

Not Roman Catholics in the modern sense.

I see the Roman Catholic Church as one of the most doctrinally developed denominations we all sorts of new dogmas showing up over the centuries.

They may have belonged to the denomination that would later become the modern RCC denomination, but many of the catholic distinctive dogmas were absent.

There were no denominations in the first century - right? Therefore the Catholic Church to which Ignatius belonged, was not a denomination, but merely the church?

As a former non-Catholic I too embraced the notion that the CC invented all sorts of new dogmas, showing up over the centuries, until I researched the matter. They were not invented but rather developed e.g. the Trinity. Agree to disagree I suppose…

I think I understand your perspective. The Roman Catholic Church sprang up in the fourth or fifth century - correct? Where was the true church founded by God, from the fourth or fifth century to the 16th century Protestant reformation?

 

[Lek]

Since you are a Protestant, do you mind if I ask about how you would explain the 1500 year gap?

Okay. I’m back and want to answer you, but I don’t really understand the question. The way you asked the question, you seemed to indicate that you were discussing this on another thread and continuing it here, but I wasn’t in the other thread. You refer to a 1500 year gap. What gap are you speaking of? Is it the gap between Christ and the advent of the Protestant reformation?

 

[Edmundus1581]

…
However, in general in America, whites are leaving the Catholic Church. Hispanic immigration is propping up the RCC’s numbers. And countless Hispanics (and Filipinos) switch to Evangelical churches. They will tell you that Catholicism is about just going through traditions and motions, whereas the faith is more alive and better experienced in Evangelical churches.
…

But, do you have the aggregate numbers for the US over the last 20 years (or so)?

As I said, in Australia and England there are always similar stories about the RCC shrinking while the others boom (due to whatever the current issues are), and yet, over time, the movement is towards the RCC. I’m sure I’ve seen the actual numbers - whereas I haven’t seen them for the US.

 

[joe371]

CaliLobo;12184872]Individual Catholics, yes. But Catholic parishes as a whole pale in comparison compared to Evangelical churches. Evangelical churches run circles around Catholics when it comes to teaching, preaching, Bible reading, evangelism, missions, and welcoming new members.

Tell me how you really feel…OK…

Combined with the list I posted earlier (Sex scandal, Crusades, Improper catechesis, Meddling into the politics of Europe, Conquest of the Americas, Oppression of the rights of gays and women, Oppressing the sexual and reproductive freedom of couples, Administering sacraments while neglecting community, Churches that don’t say hi to visitors, Parishoners that lack biblical knowledge, No focus on missions and evangelism)… it is hard to see God in the Catholic Church.

Wow. So many wonderful and charitable things, on a global scale, about the CC you have chosen to overlook due to your bias, and many things that are flat out wrong. Of course there is good and bad in every church, even your church, because the church is made up of all sinners. However, I will digress and not stoop to your level of ad hominen tactics regarding the bad things I have seen in non-Catholic and evangelical churches vis-a-vis doctrinal errors and sinful behavior.

 

[benjohnson]

Combined with the list I posted earlier (Sex scandal, Crusades, Improper catechesis, Meddling into the politics of Europe, Conquest of the Americas, Oppression of the rights of gays and women, Oppressing the sexual and reproductive freedom of couples, Administering sacraments while neglecting community, Churches that don’t say hi to visitors, Parishoners that lack biblical knowledge, No focus on missions and evangelism)… it is hard to see God in the Catholic Church.

Frankly, if you can’t see God’s and His adopted children in the Catholic Church, you should look much closer and do so with a prayer-fill hearth. The Catholic church is the largest charity in the world.

As an aside, the Catholic church wouldn’t be so large unless is did have a focus on missions.

 

[Lek]

Since you are a Protestant, do you mind if I ask about how you would explain the 1500 year gap?

Okay. After reading many of the posts in this thread I assume that the question is whether the true church existed during the time between Christ’s resurrection and the Protestant reformation. If that’s not the question - oh well., nobody’s perfect! I believe the true church has existed since Christ established it before his resurrection. I believe most Protestants believe the same and respect the early church fathers, though I’ll admit that most Protestants don’t know much abut them; and I’ll say the same for Catholics. I believe that over those years, not only up to the time of Luther, but until now, there has always been a remnant who embraced the truth of Christ. I do believe that the Catholic church, after the 5th century, wandered far from the truth and ceased, as an institution, to carry on the truth of the gospel. The reformation corrected many of the errors of the Catholic church, but of course created and perpetuated more fallacies. Personally, I don’t believe any denomination holds all the answers to the questions that come from reading the scriptures and interpreting dogma. To this day, the meaning of many points of scripture remains debatable. I don’t know if God wanted all scripture to be plain and simple, but rather wants us to search the bible regularly for answers. Of course, I don’t believe that the Catholic church is the infallible interpreter of the scriptures and is able to establish new dogma. Don’t take this as an offense, but just a statement of my beliefs. I hope this is the question you wanted me to answer.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Individual Catholics, yes. But Catholic parishes as a whole pale in comparison compared to Evangelical churches. Evangelical churches run circles around Catholics when it comes to teaching, preaching, Bible reading, evangelism, missions, and welcoming new members.

Combined with the list I posted earlier (Sex scandal, Crusades, Improper catechesis, Meddling into the politics of Europe, Conquest of the Americas, Oppression of the rights of gays and women, Oppressing the sexual and reproductive freedom of couples, Administering sacraments while neglecting community, Churches that don’t say hi to visitors, Parishoners that lack biblical knowledge, No focus on missions and evangelism)… it is hard to see God in the Catholic Church.

It’s even harder to see God in your posts.

 

[rfournier103]

Individual Catholics, yes. But Catholic parishes as a whole pale in comparison compared to Evangelical churches. Evangelical churches run circles around Catholics when it comes to teaching, preaching, Bible reading, evangelism, missions, and welcoming new members.

Combined with the list I posted earlier (Sex scandal, Crusades, Improper catechesis, Meddling into the politics of Europe, Conquest of the Americas, Oppression of the rights of gays and women, Oppressing the sexual and reproductive freedom of couples, Administering sacraments while neglecting community, Churches that don’t say hi to visitors, Parishoners that lack biblical knowledge, No focus on missions and evangelism)… it is hard to see God in the Catholic Church.

It’s even harder to see God in your posts.

BAM!!! Hahahahaha, Isaiah! Well said… well said.

 

[Edmundus1581]

Okay. After reading many of the posts in this thread I assume that the question is whether the true church existed during the time between Christ’s resurrection and the Protestant reformation. If that’s not the question - oh well., nobody’s perfect! I believe the true church has existed since Christ established it before his resurrection. I believe most Protestants believe the same and respect the early church fathers, though I’ll admit that most Protestants don’t know much abut them; and I’ll say the same for Catholics. I believe that over those years, not only up to the time of Luther, but until now, there has always been a remnant who embraced the truth of Christ. I do believe that the Catholic church, after the 5th century, wandered far from the truth and ceased, as an institution, to carry on the truth of the gospel. The reformation corrected many of the errors of the Catholic church, but of course created and perpetuated more fallacies. Personally, I don’t believe any denomination holds all the answers to the questions that come from reading the scriptures and interpreting dogma. To this day, the meaning of many points of scripture remains debatable. I don’t know if God wanted all scripture to be plain and simple, but rather wants us to search the bible regularly for answers. Of course, I don’t believe that the Catholic church is the infallible interpreter of the scriptures and is able to establish new dogma. Don’t take this as an offense, but just a statement of my beliefs. I hope this is the question you wanted me to answer.

Thanks for the direct and thoughtful answer!

You have, I believe, addressed Denise’s question and the OP. I think you are saying, in essence, that there is a “gap” of about 1,000 years where the visible Church (the CC) stopped teaching the full gospel, while there was some remnant of the “True” Church within it.

The OP asked Protestants for their explanation of the “gap” - which is primarily a request for information.

I could debate some of positions you have mentioned - but that’s another matter.

 

[Edmundus1581]

I could debate some of positions you have mentioned - but that’s another matter.

However, your post has reminded me of why I started moving towards the Catholic Church. I’ve been asked from time to time, and have even forgotten what the first murmerings were.

It was nearly 35 years ago - but IIRC it was an intuition that there was no distinction between the Church of Matt 16:15-18, and of Paul, and the visible Church.

In Catholic teaching it is not quite as simple as that. We now say that Christ’s Church “subsists” in the Catholic Church, rather than is identical to it. The “church” extends to all who have been baptised - and of course we have special regard for those who are closest to us in following the gospel.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Individual Catholics, yes. But Catholic parishes as a whole pale in comparison compared to Evangelical churches. Evangelical churches run circles around Catholics when it comes to teaching, preaching, Bible reading, evangelism, missions, and welcoming new members.

Combined with the list I posted earlier (Sex scandal, Crusades, Improper catechesis, Meddling into the politics of Europe, Conquest of the Americas, Oppression of the rights of gays and women, Oppressing the sexual and reproductive freedom of couples, Administering sacraments while neglecting community, Churches that don’t say hi to visitors, Parishoners that lack biblical knowledge, No focus on missions and evangelism)… it is hard to see God in the Catholic Church.

The Bible has enough information to allow one to have a relationship with Christ. Everything else that the Bible isn’t clear on… the lack of clarity should not be a cause of division among believers. We are free to agree to disagree.

See above.

Go sometime; there is no missing God in the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[rfournier103]

Sex scandal?

I suppose you think that ONLY the Catholic Church has that problem? Many Protestant ministers, Jewish rabbis, teachers, football coaches, scoutmasters, and even police officers have been CONVICTED of every kind of sexual offense under the sun. You seem to make it seem like ONLY the Church has this issue. Catholic priests get far more attention in the media for numerous reasons.

Crusades?

So, liberating the Holy Land from an oppressing anti-Christian force is a bad thing?

Improper catechesis?

Sorry about that. We’re doing better. And for your information, not every Protestant knows it all, either. In case you were wondering…

Meddling into the politics of Europe?

Lutherans, Calvinists, and Anglicans never did this, either? And to a further degree than the Catholic Church? You need to learn more than just how to sling mud at the Catholic Church. You are VERY good at pointing out the flaws of the CATHOLIC Church, but has Protestantism been a haven of sinless angels? Hardly.

Conquest of the Americas?

The Catholic Church conquored the Americas? My history teachers had it wrong! I always thought Spain, France, Portugal, and Britain (a Protestant nation, by the way…) conquored the Americas. Learn something new every day…

Oppression of the rights of gays and women?

How is the Church doing that?

Oppressing the sexual and reproductive freedom of couples?

Again, HOW IS THE CHURCH DOING THAT???

Administering sacraments while neglecting community?

What the heck are you talking about? The Catholic Church is VERY active in the community. My parish just sent a “mission” to Pittsburgh to help with the homeless and underprivelidged. Your blanket biggoted statements amaze me.

Churches that don’t say hi to visitors?

We have “greeters”; but I didn’t realize Holy Mass was supposed to be “social hour”. I was under the impression we are there for worship.

Parishoners that lack biblical knowledge?

I think MY Biblical knowledge isn’t too shabby. People need to take PERSONAL responsibility. The priests and bishops can’t force anyone to read their Bibles. Sorry.

No focus on missions and evangelism?

An utter falsehood and fallacy.
~uscatholicmission.org/
~catholicworldmission.org/
~fmcmissions.com/

Where is Christ in the Catholic Church? Please don’t say he’s in the host. People want to feel God’s presence and they won’t feel him just because the Vatican says he’s in the host.

The Bible says He’s in the Host. John 6.
scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html#eucharist-IIa

it is hard to see God in the Catholic Church.

Your lack of love and charity is disgusting.

It seems here in this link (youtube.com/watch?v=CMWbBB5wOW4) we have two anti-Catholic Evangelical-types who completely thumb their nose at history; going as far to say that they don’t recommend reading the Early Church Fathers. What are they afraid of?

It appears to these guys that the Bible fell out of the sky and nothing ever happened before the rise of Protestantism.