How do protestants explain the time between Christ and the reformation?

[GKMotley]

Naw. I’m going with my books. Deep into that history. Always to be recommended.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

10 years after he was excommunicated,

Luther admitted he added alone to faith where it wasn’t in the original text. As He put it, **"if your Papist wishes to make a great fuss about the word “alone” (sola), say this to him: "Dr. Martin Luther will have it so"
From:

And you know full well that was sarcasm.
He says:

“So this can be the answer to your first question. Please do not
give these asses any other answer to their useless braying about
that word “sola” than simply “Luther will have it so, and he says
that he is a doctor above all the papal doctors.” Let it remain
at that. I will, from now on, hold them in contempt,…”

It is out of contempt for his critics that he says this. It is not the reason for his translation if Romans 3:28.

Later on in that open letter on translating, he gives his actual reasons.

For you and our people, however, I shall show why I used the word
“sola” - even though in Romans 3 it wasn’t “sola” I used but
“solum” or “tantum”. That is how closely those asses have looked
at my text! However, I have used “sola fides” in other places,
and I want to use both “solum” and “sola”. I have continually
tried translating in a pure and accurate German.

…

I also know that in Rom. 3, the word “solum” is not present in
either Greek or Latin text - the papists did not have to teach me
that - it is fact! The letters s-o-l-a are not there. And these
knotheads stare at them like cows at a new gate, while at the same
time they do not recognize that it conveys the sense of the text -
if the translation is to be clear and accurate, it belongs there.
I wanted to speak German since it was German I had spoken in
translation - not Latin or Greek. But it is the nature of our
language that in speaking about two things, one which is affirmed,
the other denied, we use the word “solum” only along with the word
“not” (nicht) or “no” (kein). For example, we say “the farmer
brings only (allein) grain and no money”; or “No, I really have no
money, but only (allein) grain”; I have only eaten and not yet
drunk"; “Did you write it only and not read it over?” There are a
vast number of such everyday cases.
In all these phrases, this is a German usage, even though it is
not the Latin or Greek usage. It is the nature of the German
tongue to add “allein” in order that “nicht” or “kein” may be
clearer and more complete.

Here we find the detailed explanation (there is more) as to his actual reason.
I’ve been around this block too many times, Steve. I’ve seen misrepresented, wittingly or unwittingly, too many times to count.

Luther had plenty of real flaws without creating new ones out of whole cloth.

Back under the old CA design, I posted this HERE Whoever is interested, keep reading through the thread

 

[JonNC]

Thanks for sharing that. It doesn’t change the fact that Luther’s defense of his translation choices are not based on his sarcasm and disdain for his opponents.

His defense for his translation is in the places of the letter I referenced.

So, again, Luther has plenty of flaws. Find one of them to criticize instead of this polemic.

 

[steve-b]

Thanks for sharing that. It doesn’t change the fact that Luther’s defense of his translation choices are not based on his sarcasm and disdain for his opponents.

His defense for his translation is in the places of the letter I referenced.

So, again, Luther has plenty of flaws. Find one of them to criticize instead of this polemic.

His polemics vs his flaws? For him that seems like a distinction without a difference

Back in 2014, that link I gave, if one wants to further read, it had 230+ posts. I had 29 posts in that thread. I think Contarini and I covered all the areas of conflict

I may have this wrong but I think in 2017 he came into the Church

 

[Niblo]

as a sidenote, there is an ancient religion, whose name I can’t recall, of followers of John the Baptist who didn’t accept Christ. They’re still around, but there aren’t very many of them.

Hi dochawk

That’ll be the Mandaeans.

 

[JonNC]

His polemics vs his flaws? For him that seems like a distinction without a difference

His polemics are matched toe to toe with that of Catholic apologists since the Reformation era. It is only in apologetics do we see this kind of back and forth. I guess someday we’ll grow up to be like the theologians who are beyond this.

 

[GKMotley]

Yep. As I had been predicting for a couple pf years.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

His polemics vs his flaws? For him that seems like a distinction without a difference

His polemics are matched toe to toe with that of Catholic apologists since the Reformation era. It is only in apologetics do we see this kind of back and forth.

That’s an attempt at an equalization of both views. As if there is no right or wrong views… just opinions and apologetics. Reality is, Luther was wrong.

 

[steve-b]

Yep. As I had been predicting for a couple pf years.

Howdy Jim

Contarini and I had some pretty good discussions. Back in 2014, I don’t remember whether I had any particular prediction either way on Contarini’s ultimate coming home.

 

[JonNC]

That’s an attempt at an equalization of both views. As if there is no right or wrong views… just opinions and apologetics. Reality is, Luther was wrong.

You’re right. The likes of O’Hare and Denifle and others had time to be worse.
Polemics are rarely right.
You believe Luther was wrong. Speak to those issues without an ad hominem about whether he thought he was his own boss

 

[GKMotley]

He, as you might recall, was the first person ever to reply to a post of mine (the first post I ever made anywhere, on a board now gone). I saw it was a done deal that he was going Rome-ward eventually. I don’t know his current status; been years since I’ve seen a post of his, anywhere.

 

[steve-b]

That’s an attempt at an equalization of both views. As if there is no right or wrong views… just opinions and apologetics. Reality is, Luther was wrong.

JonNC:

You’re right. The likes of O’Hare and Denifle and others had time to be worse.
Polemics are rarely right.
You believe Luther was wrong. Speak to those issues without an ad hominem about whether he thought he was his own boss

Oh c’mon Jon,

You think Luther was just bloviating. In reality He made himself his own majesterium. His polemics dictated his direction.

One of my later posts on the thread I linked to , I used the book of “JOB” as an example where God is making a HUGE point with JOB when God goes through a series of

WHERE WERE YOU [JOB] WHEN I …

only I changed JOB to Luther

As in

Where were you Luther, when I established my Church on Peter and those in union with Peter?
Where were you Luther when I gave Peter the keys to my kingdom and said my kingdom will never end?
Where were you Luther when I gave all my promises to my Church, speaking to Peter ?
Where were you Luther when I said to Peter, feed and rule my sheep?
Where were you Luther when I prayed for perfect unity in what I established, while you caused rebellion?
Etc Etc Etc.

 

[steve-b]

He, as you might recall, was the first person ever to reply to a post of mine (the first post I ever made anywhere, on a board now gone).

I didn’t know that.

Yeah, the old board. I wish it was accessible, just to search and read.
GHMotley:

I saw it was a done deal that he was going Rome-ward eventually. I don’t know his current status; been years since I’ve seen a post of his, anywhere.

I hear ya

 

[GKMotley]

He was a moderate, very scholarly (PhD, now), always even handed, except when he got a little sharp-tongued, knew way more about the Continental stuff than I did (I was the Hank guy) and always looking on the liberal side of both schools of thought.

I wish the old board was available myself. Or the even older board, where he and I first met.

 

[steve-b]

He was a moderate, very scholarly (PhD, now), always even handed, except when he got a little sharp-tongued, knew way more about the Continental stuff than I did (I was the Hank guy)and always looking on the liberal side of both schools of thought.

I wish the old board was available myself. Or the even older board, where he and I first met.

I remember the first first board where you and I met. Before CA.

When we came to CA I remember you and I had an all nighter on ole Hank.

 

[GKMotley]

I was younger then. But I did save a lot of my blatherings.

 

[steve-b]

I was younger then.

I know. You’re now in the 100’s, …right?

GKMotley:

But I did save a lot of my blatherings.

I thought I was doing the same. Problem is, I made all the posts into links. The links don’t work anymore either. It’s all gone

 

[GKMotley]

Closing in on 74.

Mine are on file, and some on disorganized thumb drives. I’d never remember all that stuff, if I lost it.

 

[JonNC]

You think Luther was just bloviating. In reality He made himself his own majesterium. His polemics dictated his direction.

Source, where he claims this.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

You think Luther was just bloviating. In reality He made himself his own majesterium. His polemics dictated his direction.

Source, where he claims this.

I’ve given you multiple sources already in links