Actually, it is the point. I can defend the primacy of the Pope and not defend supremacy.
The fact is, in the early Church, that was the case. It can be defended ecclesiastically.
How do protestants explain the time between Christ and the reformation?
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The fact is, in the early Church, that was the case. It can be defended ecclesiastically.
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HopkinsReb
Guest
God at the top, of course. But below that, why would one be needed? It’s obvious why hierarchy matters on earth, but why should heaven need one apostle put in a position of authority?
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Of course not, but it is the highest throne.JonNC:
Is that one of the 12 thrones?ReadTheBible:
Christ’s. Of course
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ReadTheBible
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That’s the point. All 12 are put in positions of authority.
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OrbisNonSufficit
Guest
If there is no contradiction between my sentence and your belief, we’re in agreement and otherwise I said what I believe. I simply wanted to refer to saying people are not saved because of lack of faith, not that I said you said it but I pointed it out at the occasion.
It’s availability and possibility mostly.
Well Miaphysite Church did not accept council so miaphysites perceived it as false, but Chalcedonian Church accepted it so they considered Miaphysites to be out of Church. You need to have good definition of what constitutes true Church with visible ways to find out to have possibility of certainty.
Not entirely, Rome was never wrong in it’s own eyes- others failed even in their own eyes (maybe… maybe you can exclude Alexandria but I am not sure)
As I said with Robber councils, there needs to be a method to determine which Council is true.
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HopkinsReb
Guest
You asked if one was above the others, not if all were given authority. Please try to communicate better.
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ReadTheBible
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Agreed, oak trees produce acorns but that’s not part of the question.
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ReadTheBible
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hahaha
I asked in that way hoping you would see the answer for yourself.
I asked in that way hoping you would see the answer for yourself.
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ReadTheBible
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Ok it took a while but I think we all agree all 12 apostles are given equal authority to judge the tribes of Israel correct?
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steve-b
Guest
yeah
Adam lived to be almost 1000 yrs old Gen 5:1-5
Seth 960 yrs Gen 5:6-8
As for Catholics, and those ages, What the Early Church Believed: Creation and Genesis | Catholic Answers
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HopkinsReb
Guest
We don’t agree. I have no idea if they were or weren’t, and I don’t see the relevance of the question to any of the issues at hand.
ETA: I certainly agree that it’s possible that, in heaven, they were given equal authority.
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ReadTheBible
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I already gave the intended point. It’s to prove that all 12 apostles were equals. If they weren’t equals why wouldn’t Peter have a higher position in Heaven than the other 11? I’m not sure you believe there is a hierarchy in Heaven so I’m not sure how far this resounds.
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HopkinsReb
Guest
I have no opinion as to whether the apostles have a hierarchy in heaven. It has no bearing on whether they had a hierarchy on earth. These are entirely separate questions. I simply do not care whether heaven is hierarchical, nor do I think it bears on this conversation.
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ReadTheBible
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It is pertinent to the discussion because it shows the apostles as equals. I know you believe Peter was the pope and founder of the church which leads me into my 2nd question from earlier on whether you believe Peter was the 1st Pope. If you believe Peter is the first pope and rock on which the church was built you must have an answer for what Peter himself says.
1 Peter: Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
Peter is speaking to the earliest of Christians. He’s not speaking to Preachers, Bishops, Deacons, and the like.
Who does Peter say is the cornerstone of the spiritual house? Jesus. Just as Isaiah prophesied. Isaiah didn’t prophecy saying behold I lay a cornerstone in Rome. Peter is not the cornerstone of the spiritual house.
Peter says all Christians are little stones. Peter doesn’t say I am the biggest stone and you simply are smaller stones. Why doesn’t Peter tell all the Christians I am Peter the Pope and you must do whatever I deem religiously accurate? It’s because Peter knows the only way to salvation is through Christ, not Peter.
1 Peter: Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
Peter is speaking to the earliest of Christians. He’s not speaking to Preachers, Bishops, Deacons, and the like.
Who does Peter say is the cornerstone of the spiritual house? Jesus. Just as Isaiah prophesied. Isaiah didn’t prophecy saying behold I lay a cornerstone in Rome. Peter is not the cornerstone of the spiritual house.
Peter says all Christians are little stones. Peter doesn’t say I am the biggest stone and you simply are smaller stones. Why doesn’t Peter tell all the Christians I am Peter the Pope and you must do whatever I deem religiously accurate? It’s because Peter knows the only way to salvation is through Christ, not Peter.
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HopkinsReb
Guest
Equality in heaven is not necessarily related to equality on earth. Stop begging the question and demonstrate to me why I should think that they are equal in heaven and why I should think that that matters to earthly authority.
As for the rest…metaphors get recycled. Christ is, of course, the head of the church and the rock on which it is built. Literally no Christian denies this. Peter is not the founder of the Church, nor do Catholics believe him to be. Christ is the founder of the Church, full-stop. Peter was merely its earthly head. Not its true head – that position always has been, is, and always will be Christ. Likewise, it is not a claim of the Catholic Church that salvation comes through Peter, not through Christ.
You have many, many misconceptions about what Catholics, and other more traditional Protestants, believe. I suggest that you educate yourself.
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EZweber
Guest
Christ does say that he is Rock, and “upon this rock I will build my Church.” Before you start quoting the original Greek, you might want to look at the Aramaic, which is the language He would have spoken in - there is only one word for rock.
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steve-b
Guest
Here’s something to consider
While the 12 apostles were equally apostles, that doesn’t mean there is not one of them, greater than the others
As Jesus said
Jn 12:49
For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.
So we know Jesus renamed Simon to Rock, Peter. And gave Peter the keys to the kingdom. Meaning Peter is the Father’s choice to lead the Church after Jesus ascends back to heaven.
However, of all places, the last supper
Lk 22: 24 A dispute also arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest μείζων 25Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest μείζων among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules ἡγούμενος like the one who serves. 27For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. 28You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29And I confer on you ὑμῖν plural a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31“Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. 32But I have prayed for you.σοῦ singular Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen στήρισον your brothers.”
Did Jesus confirm one of THEM is the greatest? Yes . The only apostle He names. Their dispute is over
Did the one who is greatest, lobby for the position? No. He was selected by Jesus
Did Jesus confirm the one He names greatest, would rule them ergo over Our Lord’s kingdom? Yes
Did Jesus promise to pray especially for this one who would rule over the entire kingdom? Yes
Who is this man who is to rule and have primacy over the entire Church? The only one Jesus mentions by name. Peter.
Jesus just ended their argument
That said, who got them into this argument in the first place? Satan. Who is vested in keeping people sifted from this plan of Jesus? Satan
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steve-b
Guest
This is such an old argument played out in sooooo many ways… and it never ends. But it will end someday
Please respond to THIS
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ReadTheBible
Guest
Jesus prays to the Father for Peter because he already knows Peter is going to betray him.
Please show me where Jesus tells Peter that he is to rule and have primacy over the entire Church.
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ReadTheBible
Guest
It’s Peter’s own words. I’ve already said if you wish to argue the facts to which Peter discussed we are all stones, which means we are all equal and priests unto God, then your argument is with Peter, not me.
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