How do protestants explain the time between Christ and the reformation?

[hope]

I agree with you BUT the parable of Jesus definitely states that is you don’t do those things you will thrown into eternal punishment.

 

[ReadTheBible]

I simply disagree that’s what the parable states.

 

[hope]

Source?

How about answering what tense you were referring to that changed the meaning of Jesus’ word

Whose sins you forgive…

 

[hope]

Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’

45

He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’

46

And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

[Gingersnaps4]

Allow no one to eat or drink of your Eucharist, unless they have been baptized in the name of the Lord. For concerning this, the Lord has said, “Do not give what is holy to dogs.”

When this was said there was one church with one set of doctorines and those who taught something different were known as heretics and were condemned.

Really all we have to do is look around today at “churches” that completely pervert God’s word…there are churches that teach that abortion is ok, and gay marriage is GOOD and HEALTHY…people preaching, believing and practicing this type of thing based on their churches beliefs are baptized…but no they should clearly not be receiving the Eucharist according to the early church or Catholicism. Examples like this make it obvious that the Church was never meant to divide and splinter as it has. So many branches of Christianity have completely jumped the tracks and more are following every day. It’s becoming so obvious that the Holy Spirit isn’t protecting these other denominations from error and people are being led to ruin. Just looking around at this is what led myself and my family into the Catholic Church, actually. It’s so obvious.

 

[ReadTheBible]

Biblical Greek has around 5600 words? It’s something in that area. If you understand or whether you do not, Greek verbs are used in ways we can’t express using English. Every Greek verb has the potential to express 3 things, (mood, tense, and a voice). On top of that, the “voice” in Greek can have 3 voices, (middle, passive, & active). English doesn’t really have a middle voice. Typically this middle voice represents someone performing an act upon themselves. Then these 3 tenses are broken down further into passive and middle deponent.

Using English we are familiar with the 3 tenses past, present, & future. In Greek there is a 4th called the aorist tense and there is a 2nd variation called the second aorist tense. The concepts for these verbs have no regard for past, present, or future. So when translating these into English there is no full proof of how to because it simply doesn’t exist in English. Most of the times it’s translated as past tense but that doesn’t always work and it’s not always correct.

Greek verbs also have moods, (impersonal, optative, infinitive, participle, indicative, subjunctive, imperative) Each mood relates specific meanings. This is very important. The subjunctive mood expresses potential or the possibility. So a verb stated in the subjunctive mood may or may not happen depending on the given circumstances.

Onto John 20 verse 22 - The verb labete is translated as receive you or ye in the proper English. Labete is the second aorist tense, active voice, and imperative mood of the verb lambano. That verbs meaning is to take, have, receive, or catch. The key is the second aorist tense.
Christ wasn’t telling the apostles they would receive the Holy Spirit right then. The emphasis is on what is going to happen without specifying when. We know the apostles received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost right? Pentecost clearly came after this meeting between Jesus and the apostles.

Onto verse 23. Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained

Aphete is translated as ye remit. This is the active voice using the second aorist tense, and is the subjunctive mood of the verb aphiemi which means to forgive, forsake, or leave.
Kratete is translated as you retain. The present tense, active voice and subjunctive mood of the verb krateo, which means lay hold on, take, to hold. The key again is the subjunctive mood on both these verbs.

 

[ReadTheBible]

In verse 22 Jesus focused on what would happen. They would receive the power of the Holy Spirit. They would be able to tell who was truly repentant vs those who weren’t. This ability to discern who was truly forgiven would give them the ability to offer the gift of baptism as a reward for those who were truly repentant. They could also announce or tell those people who were claiming repentance that they really weren’t because they had the power to see such things because of the Holy Spirit. The second aorist tense in verse 23 (you remit) also shows Jesus was focusing on what would happen to them concerning the Holy Spirit without specifying when.

There is proof in Acts 8 that Peter can now see the heart of Simon.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Adding a little bit but it’s truly amazing that the apostles had this gift. Imagine being able to see the hearts of others. But, they had this ability because they were imbued with the Holy Spirit who guides us to truth. So through the Holy Spirit they could actually see the truth of people’s hearts. It’s pretty amazing to think about.

 

[steve-b]

I give you passage after passage disproving purgatory… You response is not to analyze the passages I give you but to give what your Church uses as passages to prove what their idea is about purgatory.

The Church I quote from as Paul puts it, is the pillar and foundation of truth. It’s been here for 2000 yrs. by the same name, The Catholic Church. The same Church that gave us the scriptures

Acts 9:31 the church throughout all , universal ἐκκλησία καθ’ ὅλης τῆς
ἐκκλησία,= ekklésia = church ,
καθ’, = kata = according to ,
ὅλης, = holos = whole / all / universal ,
τῆς, = ho = the ,
= the Kataholos Church = the Catholic Church.

Acts was written ~ 70 a.d.

The name Catholic Church is used by

Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch. Bishop from ~69 a.d. to ~107 a.d. ordained by the apostles, and direct disciple of St John. It was in Antioch where the disciples were first called Christian Acts 11:26 Acts 11:26 RSVCE - and when he had found him, he brought - Bible Gateway Ignatius in his writings uses both “Christian” and “Catholic Church”, (Christian) in (ch 2) and Catholic Church in (ch 8). From his Epistle to the Smyrnæans, Christians ch 2, Catholic Church ch 8. He also writes schismatics won’t be going to heaven, from his Epistle to the Philadelphians (ch 3).

Where would Ignatius learn to teach that warning and consequence for one’s soul, for committing and remaining in the sin of schism / division /schism from the Catholic Church?

It’s from St Paul

**Romans 16:17-20**Rom16:17-20 RSVCE - Final Instructions - I appeal to you, - Bible Gateway

**Galatians 5:19-21**Gal 5:19-21 RSVCE - Now the works of the flesh are plain: - Bible Gateway
both quotes use the same Greek word [διχοστασίαι,] for dissension / division /schism [http://bibleapps.com/greek/1370.htm] And the consequence for that sin if one won’t return to the Catholic Church? Paul says “I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God”. IOW they go to hell when they die
The only Church Jesus established on Peter and those in union with him? The Catholic Church
That condemnation for division came from Jesus who does NOT approve of division from His Church John 17:20-23 Jn 17:20-23 RSVCE - “I do not pray for these only, but - Bible Gateway , and since the HS only teaches what comes from Jesus **John 16:12-15**Jn 16:12-15 RSVCE - “I have yet many things to say to - Bible Gateway no one then can say the HS inspired THEM to divide, or inspired all the dissensions / divisions / schisms we see today in Christianity.

 

[ReadTheBible]

I would specify a difference between the word Catholic vs Catholicism or RCC.

The word Catholic can simply mean a person belonging to the universal Christian church or body of Christ.

 

[steve-b]

I would specify a difference between the word Catholic vs Catholicism or RCC.

The word Catholic can simply mean a person belonging to the universal Christian church or body of Christ.

No

And
You’ll say and make up anything in your own mind to get out of recognizing truth

 

[steve-b]

hope:

Works

These are works or acts we are supposed to do as Christians. These works do not pardon us from sin.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2: 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Try not doing what we are created to do , by God, and see how that goes at judgement.

 

[chrisjb]

ReadTheBible:

hope:

Works

These are works or acts we are supposed to do as Christians. These works do not pardon us from sin.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2: 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Try not doing what we are created to do , by God, and see how that goes at judgement.

Paul said it best in Romans 2:5-8, where he clearly stated works AND a lack of mortal sin were necessary for eternal life.

5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

 

[ReadTheBible]

You’ll say and make up anything in your own mind to get out of recognizing truth

I’m not sure if you’re just angry or what.

Catholic Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

Let’s look at the Merriam Webster Dictionary. What does it say?

“a person who belongs to the universal Christian church”

Perhaps you now think I infiltrated Merriam’s website to “make up anything”.

Honestly, let go the anger.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

Baptism was the early Church’s baseline, ISTM.

So Quakers and the Salvation Army are not in the church (but Mormons are)?

What makes a valid baptism?

 

[JonNC]

when I said that to @ReadTheBible I was talking about all of his anti Catholic rhetoric he has been printing.

Take note I have defended nothing @ReadTheBible has said. I don’t defend anti-Catholic rhetoric anymore than I appreciate anti-Luther rhetoric.

Speaking of which:

And it’s a bit rich Jon, for Luther to pick and choose which scripture he will follow and which scripture he won’t when he personally demoted 7 OT scriptural books to non scripture status in his bible, and had huge problems and almost removing Hebrews, and James, (calling it an epistle of straw) Jude, and Revelations, saying John couldn’t have written it.

Proof, please, that his transition omitted any other these.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

You’ll say and make up anything in your own mind to get out of recognizing truth

I’m not sure if you’re just angry or what.

Catholic | Definition of Catholic by Merriam-Webster

Let’s look at the Merriam Webster Dictionary. What does it say?

“a person who belongs to the universal Christian church”

Perhaps you now think I infiltrated Merriam’s website to “make up anything”.

Honestly, let go the anger.

And you said you didn’t trust nor use 3rd party sources for information

 

[ReadTheBible]

I don’t think you understand my belief.

I’ll be as clear as I can.

There is only one way to get to Heaven and that is the belief in Jesus as our Savior. This is the rock of the new covenant. The belief he was born to a virgin, he lived a sinless life, died on the cross for our sins, and rose from the dead. He is the mediator between us and God the Father.

I know you cited Paul in Romans and I agree with his position but I’ll stick with what Jesus talked about for this topic.

Look at the parable Jesus gave on talents.

We owe everything we have, and our lives to God. We are to work for God in this life not for our self. God measures us not only by our works but our effort. The slothful servant did nothing. He was given a talent and he hid it. He was cast into hell.

I think the majority of people who give lessons on this parable as not to be wicked and lazy either physically or spiritually. We as Christians must strive to do the work of God to bring others to his fold and spread the word of Christianity.

I liken the slothful servant to someone who is of age, repents his ways, believes on all that is Jesus and does nothing to change his worldly ways. He didn’t use the gifts of God which take work to carry out.

If you do 1000 good works a day in the eyes of God but have not the belief in Jesus the works are for nought.This to me is one of the revelations about God and scripture that tell us we can not merit our way to Heaven nor can our works aid in our sins being forgiven. Grace is a free gift of God that we might be pardoned from all sin but we are to not squander that gift. We are to take that gift and do something with it which is God’s will. Good works should be a consequence of receiving grace from God.

 

[Neithan]

What makes a valid baptism?

I know this because of the Catholic teaching: valid form, the words, “In the Name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”; and matter — water — with right intention, to effect the sacrament.

How do you know what makes a valid baptism?

So who is in the church and who is not, and how do we know?

 

[ReadTheBible]

And you said you didn’t trust nor use 3rd party sources for information

That’s not what I said at all. I said in our discussion about biblical scripture I only used scripture as my source not external sites as you did.

Defining the word catholic, and using a independent source, is far different than you using 3rd party sources which are established, owned, or ran by Catholicism itself. I’m sure you can see the difference.

 

[GKMotley]

Anglicans say the same. Plus valid recipient.