How Do Protestants Feel While Saying The Apostles Creed?

[JonNC]

Yes, thank you… yes, I did mean sola fide. Thanks for being decent about that. I happen to be working on other issues and answering these at the same time. Thanks.

Now, grace is indeed a gift as is faith. However, Lutherans seem to want it both ways. You say salvation is by faith alone, and then you say it’s certainly not by faith alone. If it’s faith and something, then it’s really not faith alone is it?

MDK, why should I be anything but decent about an obvious typo?
Pastor Gary might be able to answer you more clearly, but I’ll try.
What we are saying about works is simply that we gain no merit toward justification or even salvation for the good works we do. That isn’t to say we are not obliged to do good works. We are obliged, as Christ, who receives all merit for our salvation, commands us to do good works. Good works are our response to the justification that Christ through His sacrifice procures for us.

Consider the thief on the cross, who was justified by his faith alone. We are, too. But we have the opportunity, thank God, to respond to His grace. Failure to do so is an indication of a dead faith, or false faith.

Jon

 

[catholic_daddy]

Yes, no Scripture does contradict another. That is why as a Catholic, we embrace the entire written Tradition, as well as oral Tradition. As a Catholic, we are not casual observers, but it was Catholics who wrote the Scriptures. That’s also why Luther’s doctrines of salvation by faith alone (Sola Fide), the Bible alone (Sola Scriptura), and the formal sufficiency of Scriptures giving right of private interpretation are all off the mark.

Second one is no, I haven’t read Bainton’s biography of Luther. I don’t mind checking it out, but really want it as it was, not as some would have liked it to be.

BTW I wasn’t saying Roman Catholics were Skeptical or casual observers.

 

[wisdomseeker]

MDK, why should I be anything but decent about an obvious typo?
Pastor Gary might be able to answer you more clearly, but I’ll try.
What we are saying about works is simply that we gain no merit toward justification or even salvation for the good works we do. That isn’t to say we are not obliged to do good works. We are obliged, as Christ, who receives all merit for our salvation, commands us to do good works. Good works are our response to the justification that Christ through His sacrifice procures for us.

Consider the thief on the cross, who was justified by his faith alone. We are, too. But we have the opportunity, thank God, to respond to His grace. Failure to do so is an indication of a dead faith, or false faith.

Jon

this is a poor example for faith alone though. the thief was going to die. he did not have the chance to be thought the faith.
contrary to those who are being thought yet refuse to believe.
even so this thief show the virtue of humility. on the other hand the other thief showed pride.

** "When you see the Lord immolated and lying upon the altar, and the priest bent over that sacrifice praying, and all the people empurpled by that precious blood, can you think that you are still among men and on earth? Or are you not lifted up to heaven? (The Priesthood 3:4:177 [post A.D. 386]). **

 

[JonNC]

this is a poor example for faith alone though. the thief was going to die. he did not have the chance to be thought the faith.
contrary to those who are being thought yet refuse to believe.
even so this thief show the virtue of humility. on the other hand the other thief showed pride.

I don’t think it is (a poor example), wisdomseeker. While he had no opportunity to do good works, we do. And if we consider ourselves better off than he, we should be all the more willing, with joy and thanksgiving, to do His good works, that He has prepared us to do.
Jon

 

[Grandad]

Adelore, Peter J., and MDK,
Thanks for your differing points of view…
I just finished reading “What Makes Us Catholic,Eight Gifts for Life”, by,Thomas H. Groome and I’m currently reading, “All The Pope’s Men, The Inside Story of How the Vatican Really Thinks”, by, John L. Allen, Jr. After I finish it I’ll pick up your recommendations. Thanks

 

[Peter_J]

Adelore, Peter J., and MDK,
Thanks for your differing points of view…

Happy to help. Let me know if you’re ever looking for someone to disagree with again.

  I just finished reading "What Makes Us Catholic,Eight Gifts for Life", by,Thomas H. Groome and I'm currently reading, "All The Pope's Men, The Inside Story of How the Vatican Really Thinks", by, John L. Allen, Jr. After I finish it I'll pick up your recommendations.  Thanks

I’ve never heard of the former, but I know of the latter, and I think I may want to read it at some point.

 

[Peter_J]

MDK, why should I be anything but decent about an obvious typo?

Hmm … well it is a little hard to trust you, what with those shifty eyes.

freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-whacky026.gif

Consider the thief on the cross, who was justified by his faith alone. We are, too. But we have the opportunity, thank God, to respond to His grace. Failure to do so is an indication of a dead faith, or false faith.

Jon

Good example. I don’t know if you can call it an example of “faith alone”, but definitely a case of “justification by faith, apart from works”.

 

[thirdn6]

Bla… bla…bla…
Bla… bla… bla…
(Sorry to interrupt any on-going discussion)

Can you all non-Catholics say something…

WHY you believe in the “holy catholic Church”?
HOW you come to believe in the “holy catholic Church”?
WHAT do you believe in the “holy catholic Church”?
WHERE can I find that “holy catholic Church” that I may also believe…?

… and feel “genuinely catholic” the next time I recite the creed?
(I’m really curious!) Thanks.

 

[Junebug999]

**OMG, I cannot believe what answers I have seen on this post thus far. People who are saying capital “C”, and lower case “c” is simply utter nonsence and ignorance. There is one, ONE Catholic church, not two with upper and lower cases.
Furthermore I cannot believe the denial of these non-Catholics who inserted the word “Christian” church instead of Catholic like it was originally written.
Third, Jesus said “Universal” which was meant for his Catholic church, because, well, Catholic means Universal so why aren’t you in God’s Universal church?
I can see what Protestant pastors teach these people and what they learn from non-Catholics…pretty sad if you ask me.
“We believe in the Holy Catholic church, THE COMMUNION OF SAINTS”, I suppose you’ll tell me that the Communion of Saints means something else…oh boy…God help these people…
MDK, you are correct in what you say… **

I couldn’t agree more – reading the posts I just kept thinking, “We want our Creeds back.” Since the protestants don’t want to be part of us, why don’t they be creative and/or original and come up with their own creeds. Say each protestant church on each four corners of any given city in America can each have their own Creed even. The problem is Satan doesn’t care whether we go to hell because of unbelief, misbelief, heresy, or failure to participate in God’s grace and mercy.

Peace be with you – have they stolen that too?

 

[With_Questions]

Assuming the first definition of catholic is used:

1 a often capitalized : of, relating to, or forming the church universal b often capitalized : of, relating to, or forming the ancient undivided Christian church or a church claiming historical continuity from it c capitalized : roman catholic

WHY you believe in the “holy catholic Church”?
HOW you come to believe in the “holy catholic Church”?
WHAT do you believe in the “holy catholic Church”?
WHERE can I find that “holy catholic Church” that I may also believe…?

1. Because it is Biblical
2. Because I was taught it and it is confirmed in the Bible
3. (do you mean is instead of in) Everyone whom you eventually will meet in heaven
4. You will find it in all of its fullness in heaven when it is revealed as the Bride of Christ.

… and feel “genuinely catholic” the next time I recite the creed?
(I’m really curious!) Thanks.

Can’t help you with that one.

Thank you very much.

 

[catholic_daddy]

Assuming the first definition of catholic is used:

1. Because it is Biblical
2. Because I was taught it and it is confirmed in the Bible
3. (do you mean is instead of in) Everyone whom you eventually will meet in heaven
4. You will find it in all of its fullness in heaven when it is revealed as the Bride of Christ.

Can’t help you with that one.

Thank you very much.

Let me ask you this: during the 900 or so years that the RCC taught that it was a SIN to read the Bible…to even possess a Bible, do you think other Christians might have felt comfort in the fact that ‘catholic’ is an adjective that describes ALL believers everywhere? What do you think?

 

[thirdn6]

Assuming the first definition of catholic is used:

1. Because it is Biblical
2. Because I was taught it and it is confirmed in the Bible
3. (do you mean is instead of in) Everyone whom you eventually will meet in heaven
4. You will find it in all of its fullness in heaven when it is revealed as the Bride of Christ.

Can’t help you with that one.

Thank you very much.

Thanks for your short answers.
NEXT…!

Can you all non-Catholics say something…

WHY you believe in the “holy catholic Church”?
HOW you came to believe in the “holy catholic Church”?
WHAT do you believe in the “holy catholic Church”?
WHERE can I find that “holy catholic Church” that I may also believe…?

… and feel “genuinely catholic” the next time I recite the creed?
(I’m really curious!) Thanks. :hammering:

 

[Peter_J]

Let me ask you this: during the 900 or so years that the RCC taught that it was a SIN to read the Bible…to even possess a Bible, do you think other Christians might have felt comfort in the fact that ‘catholic’ is an adjective that describes ALL believers everywhere? What do you think?

I notice you didn’t provide a source for that claim. Possibly because you don’t have one?

 

[mmplps7783]

See this is the problem that I am having with this question. I hate to sound so lost but I really am. First of all I had NO IDEA what the Apostles Creed was . Then when I read it (just now) I only know some of it. Not the part about the Holy Catholic or catholic Church. But please help me out if I don’t get why it matters.

 

[gcnuss]

Can you all non-Catholics say something…

WHY you believe in the “holy catholic Church”?
HOW you came to believe in the “holy catholic Church”?
WHAT do you believe in the “holy catholic Church”?
WHERE can I find that “holy catholic Church” that I may also believe…?

… and feel “genuinely catholic” the next time I recite the creed?
(I’m really curious!) Thanks. :hammering:

The first two sort of run together. I came to believe in the holy catholic church because it has been proclaimed throughout my formation as a Christian. Now, I hasten to add, during my formative years our practice was to say “holy Christian church” and I was confirmed by a pastor for whom the word “catholic” had no good connotations (or so it seemed to me). He spent a good part of our confirmation classes in rants against Catholicism.

The Holy Spirit works wondrously, so over the years that initial dose of anti-Catholicism has been overcome and I am able to proclaim my belief in the “holy catholic church.”

In answer to the third, I believe that the holy catholic church comprises all whom God has claimed as his own through baptism, (including baptism of desire and baptism of blood). Beyond that, only God knows who else is a part of his church. I imagine that there is a place there for those who lived before our Lord and who had no opportunity to know of him in this life.

As to the last, Jesus said “where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them.” (Matthew 18:20)

 

[Peter_J]

See this is the problem that I am having with this question. I hate to sound so lost but I really am. First of all I had NO IDEA what the Apostles Creed was . Then when I read it (just now) I only know some of it. Not the part about the Holy Catholic or catholic Church. But please help me out if I don’t get why it matters.

Perhaps this will help:

According to wikipedia: “The Roman Catholic Church, officially known as the Catholic Church,[note 1] is the world’s largest Christian church, representing over half of all Christians and one-sixth of the world’s population.” (emphasis added)

But Protestants who say the Apostles’ Creed, profess to believe in “The Holy Catholic Church”.

So, from the wikipedia article, that means that Protestants are professing to believe in the Roman Catholic Church, even though they in fact reject her.

 

[Napsack]

Thanks for your short answers.
NEXT…!

Can you all non-Catholics say something…

WHY you believe in the “holy catholic Church”?
HOW you came to believe in the “holy catholic Church”?
WHAT do you believe in the “holy catholic Church”?
WHERE can I find that “holy catholic Church” that I may also believe…?

… and feel “genuinely catholic” the next time I recite the creed?
(I’m really curious!) Thanks. :hammering:

I believe in the one holy catholic and apostolic Church because it is the Church that Christ founded. I came to believe it because it is the truth revealed to me through reasoning by the Holy Spirit and by the teachings of Scripture. I believe in the fullness of it containing the practices of ancient tradition, the communion of saints and all that Scripture says about it. I found it within the church that I attend and in my denomination. I understand that the Church is not a denomination or institution or religion, but a people in communion with Christ. The people of God.

 

[Peter_J]

I believe in the one holy catholic and apostolic Church because it is the Church that Christ founded. I came to believe it because it is the truth revealed to me through reasoning by the Holy Spirit and by the teachings of Scripture. I believe in the fullness of it containing the practices of ancient tradition, the communion of saints and all that Scripture says about it. I found it within the church that I attend and in my denomination. I understand that the Church is not a denomination or institution or religion, but a people in communion with Christ. The people of God.

In short, you believe in some form of Branch Theory, yes?

 

[Napsack]

In short, you believe in some form of Branch Theory, yes?

If I’m understanding you correctly, I would say yes.

 

[JonNC]

Peter J;4796138]Hmm … well it is a little hard to trust you, what with those shifty eyes.

How can you tell behind the menacing shades.

Good example. I don’t know if you can call it an example of “faith alone”, but definitely a case of “justification by faith, apart from works”.

Maybe that’s a better phrase anyway.
Jon