How do Protestatnts defend the canon of the NT

[PRmerger]

I really don’t know theology all that much, but I do know numbers.

Well, I am blessed to be able to know both.

The appropriate math operator here would not be subtraction but division.

Remember that what this source did was to add to each base denomination a certain adder which is the number of countries.

In the case of the Catholic denomination that adder was 281.

Huh? Where did you get 281?

But there are multiple base denomination.

So the net amount that the total number is over is (adder * number of base denominations).

Not at all. You are assuming that the Roman Catholic 242 Catholic denominations are
are counted as “base denominations”. They are not. They are counted as a single denomination in each country. Period.

The branches forked from the Protestant and “independent” churches–that is, those that claim, “The Holy Spirit is my authority and will lead me to the truth.”

And, as I posted here way back in September, the mathematical* possibility* of number of denominations is actually in the* hundreds of thousands*. And this is based only on an limited factorial if 21 (achieved from a non-exhaustive list of 21 different doctrines that someone came up with). So, to say that there are actually 40,000 denominations is actually quite tame in comparison, no?

Originally posted by PRmerger:
No…I think it’s more complicated than that. It’s a factorial equation, written as 21!.

Example: 4! means 4 x 3 x 2 x 1

so 21! means 21 x 20 x 19 x 18 etc etc etc

So, to find combinations when order doesn’t matter, say how many combinations of 3 letters could be made from 10 letters, we use this formula nCr or 10C3.

However, we don’t have a certain # of ways, so we have to do this for all the numbers up to 21…

21C1
21C2
21C3
etc etc etc!!

Mind boggling!

Just what the Devil ordered, in my opinion!

 

[PRmerger]

So you have two choices:

There’s not just 2 choices here.
(And I thought you said you “knew numbers”.) (just kidding, just kidding. I have no doubt that you actually do have a talent in math.)

(1) You can stop using that source entirely recognizing that what it considers a denomination really isn’t by your standard.

Or, I can say, "Take the number that’s documented on that website and subtract 241.



So it counted the CC as 242 denominations instead of 1…whatever. As I said, that’s easily corrected by subtraction.

And, as I’ve said multiple times around here, I’d be happy to entertain a different number if someone would provide it. With a source, of course!

 

[PRmerger]

How about this: I’ll start caring about how many denominations there are when you define “denomination.”

Edwin

Reminds me of the joke: What do you get when 2 different Christians disagree on Scripture?

A new denomination.

 

[PRmerger]

But the reason for that ridiculous 241 figure (I thought it was 238) is that the compilers count a separate “denomination” for the Catholic Church in each country. That means that instead of subtracting 241 from the figure, the figure should arguably be divided by 241.

That would be correct if each Catholic “denomination” in each country then branched off into further denominations.

They do not.

They are simply counted as one in 238 different countries. So *subtract *that and add 1 and it will be correct!

 

[PJM]

=Jon Hus; Let me say this, we all in theory at least believe that the NT is the infallable Word of God. When we take that infallable Word, and compare it to the first sentence in the above quote by you, assuming that by the church you mean the RCC, we find some evidence of a contradiction or disagreement between what that church teaches and what the NT teaches. You want to solve that disagreement by saying that since the RCC gave us the Bible or approved the NT canon (your opinion and your right to believe), we must subject ourselves to every other decree of that body.

That arguement doesn’t work for me. There are many places in both the OT and NT where the established religious authorities strayed from the plain teaching of the Scriptures. Jesus basically takes the priests to the woodshed almost every time he talks to them or about them. I trust the Word, not any man. You disagree, that is of course your right.

With your permission I would like to interject myself into this debte.

A main dificulty in dicussing Bible authortiy with non-Catholics, is that many literally DO NOT ACCEPT God Himself at His word; nor do many of them actually accept that the Bible is a God Controlled and FULLY Inspired document. No one part can contradict another. [2 Tim. 3:16-17] Is either completely TRUE or none of the BIble can be ued to teach truth. SO WHICH IS IT FRIEND?

A second major difficulty arises from the FACTS that the ONLY ONE [as in “ONE” Eph.2:19-20, Eph. 4:4-8… “church” not temple or synagogue; was what became known as todays Catholic Church, when th bible was collected, th NT writen an h Canon was firmly set ansealed wiht the promise of the HS. The NT was written by Catholics exclusively for Catholics; who where writting to specific church communites, and were not thinking about publication rights for future generations; most especally as it would turn out; NOT for brethern of heretics. This is powerful evidence of Divine Providence and Godly Inspirtation; that what was written so long ago still has GREAT revelance to so many today.

**Acts 8:30, Rom.10:17, 1 Tim.4:13 and 2 Peter 1: 20-21 all bestow the prudent advice that understanding the Bible comes from “Hearing the Word of God” [NOT READING and self interpertation]. Why? Lk.24:45 Luke.24
“Then he [Jesus] opened their minds[The Apostles] to understand the scriptures”,

It is illogical an pride-filled ignorance to presume the right to ursurp authority God gave to His Church through the Apostles, on understanding the bible, as belonging to all. Non-Catholic lack of understanding has resulted in THOUSANDS of non-Catholic denominations and sets of beleif. Clearly not-biblical. NOT the Mind, heart, and Will of God. Amen!

If you would care to share some of “the diferences” in NT - CC Teaching and what you chose to accept; I will address and clarify with evidence what and why we teach as we do?

Lets suppose YOU author a book about what ever your speciality is. Would you expect **eveyone **to be able to understand and apply correcty all that you tauhgt? Not if your realistic. That is why the Bible “birthrd” by the CC and written for the CC ALONE is empowered and entrusted by God for this task. [John 14: 16-17; John 17: 14-20]

As fo your “woodshed” remark… WHY did Chrsit do this? For OBEDIENCE or DISOBEDIENCE?

Love and prayers friend,
Pat

 

[PRmerger]

That would be correct if each Catholic “denomination” in each country then branched off into further denominations.

They do not.

They are simply counted as one in 238 different countries. So *subtract *that and add 1 and it will be correct!

Here’s a simpler way to look at it:

Example A: Let’s say a pastor is taking count of the families in his parish. There are 100 families. A new family moves in with 12 children. The pastor mistakenly says, “Now we have 112 families in our parish!”

How would we correct this?

Simple: subtract the 12 and then add 1. The actual number of families in his parish is 101.

Example B: Now,* if *each of those 12 children mistakenly brought in 5 more children from other parishes, and the pastor counted those children as part of his census, and said we now have 160 families in our parish, then, to get the correct number of families we would have to *divide *60 by 5 and subtract 12.

BUT! That is not what the statistic on this website has done. This website’s error is analogous to Example A.

So, just subtract and add 1 and we’re good!

 

[PRmerger]

It seems pretty clear to me that all three references to the “word of God” are talking about the same thing–the apostolic proclamation which is preserved in both Scripture and Tradition.

I see your point; in that paragraph the Church is specifically discussing Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

However, it seems pretty clear to me that Dei Verbum is saying that the CC is the guardian and interpreter of Scripture, which is what I’ve been saying all along.

Originally the claim (post 116) was that the Church has the *same *authority as Scripture. However, your post 131 appeared to say that the Church had greater authority. Apparently you didn’t mean this and were only arguing hypothetically, but I’m a little baffled by why you would do that.

The Catholic Church has the authority to interpret Scripture, while being its servant and guardian.

It seems that we agree on this, yes?

Where we disagree, then, is that you seem to think that having authority means it is superior.

If that is your position, then let me make this perfectly clear: I do not believe that the CC is superior to Scripture, even if it has the authority to be its authentic interpreter and guardian.

I am the guardian and authority over my children, but I am not superior to them.

Furthermore, you and others have repeatedly argued that the Church is the “final authority” or “final arbiter,” in a context in which this authority of the Church seemed to be contrasted with the authority of Scripture itself.

Finish this sentence, as you understand Catholics to believe, “The Catholic Church is the final arbiter over _______”

What exactly is it you think the CC is final arbiter over?

I think you believe we mean it is supreme over Scripture.

Nope.

That’s* not* what we mean. We’re not saying, “If Scripture says A and the Church says B, then the Church is correct.”

What we actually mean is that it is the final authority between 2 differing interpretations of Scripture; that is, when there are 2 different Christians saying, “I believe Scripture says A” and “I believe Scripture says B”, then when the Church speaks and says, “It says B”, that is the correct answer.

Nothing more, and nothing less.

 

[rinnie]

Yes, if I believed all those claims, I’d have to accept the whole package. But I don’t believe them. However, I do believe the canon is correct (and unlike many Protestants, I do think the Deuterocanonical books are at least worthy of inclusion, if not exactly fully canonical – and thus, all other things being equal, I prefer a Bible that includes them).

Izdaari If you do not believe EVERYTHING the Church teaches then How can you believe EVERYTHING that the Church put in the bible.

I mean if the Church would lie how could you trust Cannon at all?

I mean think about it? It amazes me how people do not believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Church into all truth, the way the bible says. But they do believe that the Holy Spirit did guide the Church into COS.

 

[PRmerger]

The Church is not superior to Scripture. No one is saying that. The Church is its guardian and interpreter.

As an addendum:

The only person to use the word “superior” here in reference to the Church has been Contarini. All others have only later used the word to deny the Church’s alleged “superiority” to Scripture.

 

[BILL_PICK53]

God invites people to join God in what He is doing. This is not a hard concept to understand.

I was thinking Jesus said I WILL BUILD My CHURCH and I think Church is One and if all non-cathloic are lead by the Holy Spirit why do we have over 32,00 non-cathloic churchs and not just one as Jesus said

 

[Nicea325]

Actually I thought that is what I said. But as Vatican II put it, the Church is the servant of the Word of God. In that sense one is “inferior.” But I don’t think I am pitting one against the other.

**

Why would you think this? Some of them seem to have taught the “material sufficiency” of Scripture, and at times, in polemical contexts, they may even have spoken of Scripture being clear or self-interpreting or whatever (certainly Protestant apologists compile catenas of proof-texts to that effect), but the teaching and practice of the early Church as a whole clearly assumes the authority and necessity of the Church as the interpreter of Scripture, as well as the possibility of some apostolic teaching coming down through means other than Scripture. So not, I’m not claiming anything of the sort.

I thought that what I said was quite clear, but obviously it wasn’t. I don’t know how to make it any clearer. The Fathers clearly did not think that the Church was in any way superior to Scripture. They recognized Scripture as the Word of God and they believed that the Church submits to it (as well as to any apostolic teaching that can be found to have been passed down apart from Scripture). By the fourth century they clearly thought in terms of a hierarchy of authorities, with apostolic teaching (chiefly found in Scripture) at the top and individual theologians at the bottom, with bishops and councils in between.

I don’t have a misunderstanding. We are saying the same thing. You have a misunderstanding because you irrationally assume that I must be disagreeing with you and conforming to your stereotype of a “Protestant” (perhaps you have not talked to many Anglicans before?).

In fact, if anything you’re more Protestant than I am, because I am open to the possibility that some apostolic teaching might be passed down to the Church apart from Scripture.**

Why would I want to do that?

Edwin

I am more Protestant than you? Sorry,until _ _ _ _ freezes over.Exactly! That is called Sacred Tradition and I am not against it or maybe ‘open’ to it,because that is what the RCC has always stood on: Sacred Tradition,Sacred Scripture and the Church.

 

[larkin31]

With your permission I would like to interject myself into this debte.

A main dificulty in dicussing Bible authortiy with non-Catholics, is that many literally DO NOT ACCEPT God Himself at His word; nor do many of them actually accept that the Bible is a God Controlled and FULLY Inspired document. No one part can contradict another. [2 Tim. 3:16-17] Is either completely TRUE or none of the BIble can be ued to teach truth. SO WHICH IS IT FRIEND?

Why can’t the answer be “some of it is true” or “some of it is doubtful”? Can you explain, please, why you are excluding the middle position?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

QUOTE=PRmerger;6660757]That would be correct if each Catholic “denomination” in each country then branched off into further denominations.

They do not.

They are simply counted as one in 238 different countries. So *subtract *that and add 1 and it will be correct!

Interesting topic; Your survey sounds like a publicly discredited surveyer about the Catholic Church, because he miscalculated Catholic Rites for denominations which are never the same. These different Liturgical Rites are not different Cathoilc Churches, they all practice the same Catholic Faith but in different Rites = languages and cultures. The Faith remains the same.

Protestants on the other hand have denominated from the Catholic Church the body of Jesus Christ (Ephesian 5; all) because Lutherans do not practice the same christian faith as do Baptists, Jehovah witnesses do not practice as Seventh day Adventist, Anglicans are not the same as Mormons, Pentecostals are not non denominations etc.

The point here is that there can never be more than One Church in "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in One Faith, One baptism and in One Lord.

If you have more than two Churches you already have one two many. How can God contradict himself? It is man who makes the contradiction in believing man can believe what, how and who to believe in himself, when Jesus himself builds “my church upon Peter”.

P.s if you need the source that debunked “Barrett” false survey of the Catholic Church by miscounting Rites for denominations and revealed over 40,000 protestant denominations, I think I have it stored in my library?

Peace be with you

 

[PRmerger]

Why can’t the answer be “some of it is true” or “some of it is doubtful”? Can you explain, please, why you are excluding the middle position?

Because, if you’re only sure that “some” of the CC’s doctrines are correct and take those and form your own church, what you end up with is 40,000 different Christian denominations.

Let’s take this list here:

1. 
   *]Abortion
   *]Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
   *]Baptism
   *]Can men and women sit together during services?
   *]Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help
   *]Church leadership, or no leadership
   *]Death/Soul Sleep
   *]Divorce
   *]Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed)
   *]Head coverings or no head coverings
   *]Health and wealth gospel
   *]Hell, or no hell
   *]Homosexuality
   *]Is God‘s Holy Name Jehovah
   *]Is it permissible for women to teach Scripture?
   *]Judge others, don’t judge others
   *]Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
   *]Once saved, always saved
   *]Ordination
   *]Predestination
   *]Rapture
   *]Sola scriptura/private interpretation
   *]The Eucharist (Communion)
   *]themselves)
   *]Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don’t speak in tongues)
   *]Trinity vs. Unitarianism
   *]What is original sin and its effects on humanity
   *]What’s a sin, what is not a sin
   *]When to celebrate the Lord’s Day
   *]Women pastors, no women pastors
   
   That’s 30 differing opinions that can arise, based on reading Scripture. Take permutations of that and you could get hundreds of thousands of theologies.
   
   Confusion, chaos and uncertainty–that’s what we’ve got!
   
   This is a paradigm designed by the Author of Confusion, if I ever heard of one!

 

[PRmerger]

P.s if you need the source that debunked “Barrett” false survey of the Catholic Church by miscounting Rites for denominations and revealed over 40,000 protestant denominations, I think I have it stored in my library?

Peace be with you

Yes, I’d be interested in reading it. Does it have the actual number of Christian denominations, then?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

As an addendum:

The only person to use the word “superior” here in reference to the Church has been Contarini.

The Church came long before the bible was canonized (400 years later) by the Catholic Church;

1Timothy 3:15…which is **the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. **

 

[PRmerger]

The Church came long before the bible was canonized (400 years later) by the Catholic Church;

1Timothy 3:15…which is **the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. **

Amen!

But we’re certainly not saying this means that the Church is superior to Scripture!

I came along way before my children, and I have authority over them…but I am clearly not superior to them.

 

[PRmerger]

P.s if you need the source that debunked “Barrett” false survey of the Catholic Church by miscounting Rites for denominations and revealed over 40,000 protestant denominations, I think I have it stored in my library?

Peace be with you

I will look at the thread, but, really, all one needs to do to correct the mistake is subtract and add 1. (See my example about the pastor counting his families in his parish. It’s quite an easy math problem.)

No need to throw out the baby with the bathwater!

 

[Non_Serviam]

OK, Statistics 101 is in session here.

The 40K+ number was developed using a certain methodology for counting denominations. A review of that methodology using a known value (catholicism=1 (structurally) ) gives an incorrect result (catholicism=238 (structurally) )

Therefore the methodology is flawed.

There are 2 ways to correct this:

a) apply a corrective process to each result (not just the known value or you’ve simply increased the flawed nature of the values) that was created using the methodology.

b) acknowledge that any results created using the methodology are flawed and stop using them or develop a new methodology that doesn’t contain the flaw and recalculate to produce new (and hopefully more accurate) data.

Here endeth the lesson.

.

 

[rinnie]

Amen!

But we’re certainly not saying this means that the Church is superior to Scripture!

I came along way before my children, and I have authority over them…but I am clearly not superior to them.

I don’t think any of us can say that the Church is superior to Scripture. We can say the the Church is superior over the bible in interpretating scripture.

To Me to say that the Church is superior to scripture would be like me saying my word is superior over my word. Because the Church is the Living Christ, scripture are the words of the Church the living Christ. One in the same.

But what we can say is our Church is the living CHrist led by the Holy Spirit into all truths and teaching. It is superior to any bible or book, because a book or the bible cannot teach and lead us into all understanding of the truth. The bible is only written scripture, the Church as oral scripture which is to be combined with written scripture to understand it more clearly

The problem is people replace the Church (the living God which is led by the power of the Holy Spirit) with themselves. And they think they have the power of the Church and can interpret scripture and teach it.

They Can’t. This is impossible. That is why we have so many Church’s and so many interpretations of scripture.

Jesus knew this that is why he told us in the bible itself, do not stray from Sacred tradition and follow the tradition of man. They will lead you from the truth. And we all know the pillar of truth is the Church.