How do Save my Mother?

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JohnHasSeriousQ

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My name is John and I am an
Atheist having an on going debate with my mother who is Catholic, who I love dearly, and who loves me dearly. She is not the most logical and I’m not the most emotional, and so our conversations have not really gotten either of us very far. The scope of our conversations have been primarily centered in ethics, where I have had what I believe to be serious questions about violence in the Bible, and that my mother if I am representing her correctly believes deeply that I am on the wrong track in my thinking, or believing, and so thus far blind to the awesomeness and mercy of God.

I know that there was violence in the past and thus it does stand to reason that violence would also be in the Bible. That is not my concern. I’m concern mainly with God committing violence, condoning violence or threatening violence in scripture, and how Catholics often overlook these violent writings and perceive only good messages in the Bible, or promote only the good in Christianity.
 
JohnHasSeriousQ said:
My name is John and I am an
Atheist having an on going debate with my mother who is Catholic, who I love dearly, and who loves me dearly. She is not the most logical and I’m not the most emotional, and so our conversations have not really gotten either of us very far. The scope of our conversations have been primarily centered in ethics, where I have had what I believe to be serious questions about violence in the Bible, and that my mother if I am representing her correctly believes deeply that I am on the wrong track in my thinking, or believing, and so thus far blind to the awesomeness and mercy of God.

I know that there was violence in the past and thus it does stand to reason that violence would also be in the Bible. That is not my concern. I’m concern mainly with God committing violence, condoning violence or threatening violence in scripture, and how Catholics often overlook these violent writings and perceive only good messages in the Bible, or promote only the good in Christianity.
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John, there’s a recent discussion pertaining to this (at least in part) here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=130837

Nothing is overlooked. 😉
 
The OP’s thread title is “How to save my mother?” That’s very easy. If she remains a faithful Catholic to the end and dies in a state of grace she will be saved while her son who boldly professes his atheism will be condemned.
 
JohnHasSeriousQ said:
My name is John and I am an
Atheist having an on going debate with my mother who is Catholic, who I love dearly, and who loves me dearly. She is not the most logical and I’m not the most emotional, and so our conversations have not really gotten either of us very far. The scope of our conversations have been primarily centered in ethics, where I have had what I believe to be serious questions about violence in the Bible, and that my mother if I am representing her correctly believes deeply that I am on the wrong track in my thinking, or believing, and so thus far blind to the awesomeness and mercy of God.

I know that there was violence in the past and thus it does stand to reason that violence would also be in the Bible. That is not my concern. I’m concern mainly with God committing violence, condoning violence or threatening violent writings and perceive only good messages in the Bible, or promote only the good in Christianity.
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Save your mother from what, John? You state you are an athiest. That means that you don’t believe in God and you don’t believe in an after-life. So, what, exactly, do you want to save your mother from?

Clearly, she wants you to be saved. (Note, I do not say that she wants to save you. No human being saves the soul of another human being. Only God can save.)

God is the Creator. He made everything - the entire universe, all the planets, the stars, the sun, and all of us. He designed us to know, love and serve Him in this life and to be happy with Him for ever in the next.

We, with the free will He gave us, turn our backs on Him. And you condemn God for violence? We are the ones who perpetrate violence against God.

The Bible is God’s Revelation to us, teaching us who and what He is.

Your mother is right. You are, indeed, on the wrong track. Getting on the right track involves humility instead of pride, repentance instead of railing against the Holy and Eternal God, and getting down on your knees and confessing that you have been, and still are, a sinner.
 
Thanks for the links I_A_ and FCEGM, they have both been most helpful.

I know you mean well thistle and thanks for responding, but your post sounds (in my mind as I read your words) like you mean to threaten me with your God. That is not to say that I believe you are threatening me with your God, nor do I mean to say that I actually believe God is threatening, but the words you choose to use in your response (that I “who boldly professes his atheism will be condemned”) instills in my mind an understanding that there are violent repercussions for not believing in God. If their actually are violent repercussions for not believing in God, how then is this not violent?
 
You said that you are logical, so lets be logical.

Say that you are correct and there is no God. Why would you care that your mom gets peace and happiness from her beliefs? What would be the logic in trying to take that away from her? If your mom is not using the bible to commit violence then why not let her be happy in her belief?

The problem is that you aren’t being logical. You are trying to convince your mom to stop believing in something that makes her happy just because you want her to think like you. If you don’t believe in God then what would be the reason for this?
 
:tsktsk: I am happy that my mother is happy (at least in her beliefs), in spite of part of her happiness being driven by the vain belief that I will someday also be saved. Understandable she does not want me to suffer, although she knows that we all suffer to some degree, in our own way and at our own time. I am ok with thinking that one of us is wrong in our thinking, but I do not think it is good that my mother fears so much of the consequences of MY beliefs. If I had it my way (and obviously I do not), I would take the fear she feels for her son away from her, and not because I want to take things (not even a belief) from her, rather because I do not wish her to suffer in this way. It is not ironic that we both desire the same non-suffering existence for each other, after all we are related. I think it may have more to do with the love we share with/for each other, and not that we want to change each others thinking that makes it hard on both of us. Say she is correct and there is actually a God. Am I then to think that fear of not believing in God, and fear from consequences from not living according to His plan are morally virtuous reasons to believe in God?
 
JohnHasSeriousQ said:
If I had it my way (and obviously I do not), I would take the fear she feels for her son away from her, and not because I want to take things (not even a belief) from her, rather because I do not wish her to suffer in this way.
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I think I see your problem? Now I’m no theologian but if I were in a similar situation, I’d approach it from the perspective that your mother could relate to; in that the Holy Spirit draws people close when the time is right, if at all. Better to be true to yourself than going through the motions of “fire insurance” faith which brings us along to this point you raised:
JohnHasSeriousQ said:
Say she is correct and there is actually a God. Am I then to think that fear of not believing in God, and fear from consequences from not living according to His plan are morally virtuous reasons to believe in God?
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Consider mans law? Some people obey the law because it’s the right thing to do for the working of society (a social contract), some obey the law for the sake of the law and some obey the law for fear of consequences. This theory translates poorly to faith and God as simply going through the motions without any belief is lying to yourself and to God. (Which as you’ve suggested is far from an ideal situation).

Anyway, this is all opinion and around here they’re two a penny, so if you think I’m rambling, just ignore it! All the best to you and your mother anyway.

D.
 
You seriously have the arbitrary and irrational belief that all violence is wrong, and you’re an atheist? I’ve seen people come to that ridiculous idea on the basis of a religion, but atheists usually have more common sense, even if they’re not the most philosophical.

What, exactly, makes violence wrong?

Unless, of course, by “atheist” you mean “not a Christian,” which isn’t the same thing at all.
 
JohnHasSeriousQ said:
:tsktsk: I am happy that my mother is happy (at least in her beliefs), in spite of part of her happiness being driven by the vain belief that I will someday also be saved. Understandable she does not want me to suffer, although she knows that we all suffer to some degree, in our own way and at our own time. I am ok with thinking that one of us is wrong in our thinking, but I do not think it is good that my mother fears so much of the consequences of MY beliefs. If I had it my way (and obviously I do not), I would take the fear she feels for her son away from her, and not because I want to take things (not even a belief) from her, rather because I do not wish her to suffer in this way. It is not ironic that we both desire the same non-suffering existence for each other, after all we are related. I think it may have more to do with the love we share with/for each other, and not that we want to change each others thinking that makes it hard on both of us. Say she is correct and there is actually a God. Am I then to think that fear of not believing in God, and fear from consequences from not living according to His plan are morally virtuous reasons to believe in God?
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Hi John and welcome to the forums -

It is good that you are seeking. I commend you for coming here and asking questions.

You are mistaken in your assumptions concerning any perceived threat. The faith that your mother professes, the one you have come seeking answers from states this about atheists: Those who chose to reject God will find that they are without God.

In short, you get what you ask for. No violence.
This seems simplistic, but it is actually the understanding of how God works.

I am curious, as are some others who have posted…What does your mother need saving from?

Subrosa
 
Even though you proclaim you do not believe, still you can share with your mother a reading from the scriptures she treasures.

If she is right and enters heaven but you go elsewhere, the Lord will keep her from being troubled by it.

Rev 21:1-4 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband; and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away."

It’s worth pointing out that in the very next paragraph God shows John a vision of the punishment of the eternally damned, but the saved ones are not troubled a bit. God has completely filled the saved with eternal joy, which leaves no room for mourning or pain. It’s as if the saved are completely unaware of the punishment of the damned, and they do not miss anyone who is not in heaven.
 
Thank you all for your thoughtful or heartfelt responses, please keep them coming.

A clarification in my thinking as I think I have been misunderstood by some. I do not hold the belief, as an atheist or in any other sense, that violence is always wrong. Morally and ethically I may limit this to only include violent acts of self defense, for example. We are not talking about whether I am violent, or whether I believe or do not believe any violence could be of some good at least at some time, nor are we discussing whether or not there is an inconstancy in believing both that there is no God, and that some violence could be good. I only need to know how ‘omnipotence’ and ‘violence’ (fear/vengeance/jealousy) both are attributes of God, how to reconcile this apparent inconsistency, and then somehow be able muster enough faith to overcome my thinking that if God were to exist why I should then believe in spite of this inconsistency? Frankly, I do not want to believe in a God that orders, condones, or even merely allows violence. It is not irrational for one to hold the belief that violence is always wrong, because we are human and have human experiences, but it is irrational to believe in a God who sent His son to be killed for our sins as a non-violent God, because He is supposes to be perfect, right?

Nan S, no I will not share that passage with my mother, it may make her sad here on Earth until she dies, but thank you for setting my mind to ease.
 
JohnHasSeriousQ said:
It is not irrational for one to hold the belief that violence is always wrong, because we are human and have human experiences, but it is irrational to believe in a God who sent His son to be killed for our sins as a non-violent God, because He is supposes to be perfect, right?
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Except the Son *is *God, remember? So God sent Himself to be killed for our sins, don’t you understand?

I love it when they make it easy.😃

PS, It is indeed irrational to hold the belief that violence is always wrong, if one is an atheist. Human experience shows that violence very frequently makes things better.
 
Why should I believe in a self destructive God?

P.S. Just because I believe it is not irrational for ONE to believe that all violence is wrong, does not mean that I believe this. One may be a pacifist.
 
JohnHasSeriousQ said:
Why should I believe in a self destructive God?

P.S. Just because I believe it is not irrational for ONE to believe that all violence is wrong, does not mean that I believe this. One may be a pacifist.
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Because death is not destruction; it is separation of the matter from the form. That form, however, because God, restored its own matter–the Resurrection.

and PS, No, rationally an atheist may not be a pacifist unless he is suicidal.
 
Hi John,

The best way to save your Mother from religion is to sit down and read scripture with her.

Example.

Romans 5

Concordant Literal New Testament
.18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life’s justifying.

King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life

NIV
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men

English Standard Version
18Therefore, as one trespass[e] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness[f] leads to justification and life for all men.

Youngs Literal Translation
18So, then, as through one offence to all men [it is] to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous’ [it is] to all men to justification of life;

American Standard Version
18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.

The only reason any of us are here is because God put us here… we did not come to some sort of pre birth arrangement with him of our own violation.

Your not currently a believer John because you have not yet been called by God… you will be… like the Bible says…each in their order.

Your time is perhaps just not yet… your Mum needs to see the above scripture however… they are obviously not speaking about it in her Church.

It may give her peace to know that God is the one who has already Justified all men in his sight… Salvation is sooner or Later for all… not never at all for some.

Peace
 
JohnHasSeriousQ said:
:tsktsk: I am happy that my mother is happy (at least in her beliefs), in spite of part of her happiness being driven by the vain belief that I will someday also be saved. Understandable she does not want me to suffer, although she knows that we all suffer to some degree, in our own way and at our own time. I am ok with thinking that one of us is wrong in our thinking, but I do not think it is good that my mother fears so much of the consequences of MY beliefs. If I had it my way (and obviously I do not), I would take the fear she feels for her son away from her, and not because I want to take things (not even a belief) from her, rather because I do not wish her to suffer in this way. It is not ironic that we both desire the same non-suffering existence for each other, after all we are related. I think it may have more to do with the love we share with/for each other, and not that we want to change each others thinking that makes it hard on both of us. Say she is correct and there is actually a God. Am I then to think that fear of not believing in God, and fear from consequences from not living according to His plan are morally virtuous reasons to believe in God?
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Even if your mother was an atheist she would fear for you. She would worry about your future and if you are making the right choices in life. That is part of being a parent. You never stop worrying about your child. So, this is not something that you can free her from.

Perhaps it is not so much that you wish to save your mom from religion but that you wish to be spared being evangelized by her. Others have pointed out that it is the Holy Spirit that guides us to God. If you tell this to your mom, she might verbally leave you alone, although I am certain that like St. Monica, she will always pray for you.

Be glad. Someone loves you enough to worry about you.
 
hi John, I have two book recommendations for you and your mom to read together. One is the* Language of God *by Frances Collins. He is a Christian science who headed the Genome project for over a decade. He is a former atheist.

The other is The Case for Faith by Lee Stroebel. He is a former atheist who decided to approach the existence of God from an investigative researcher perspective. He has a few books out on the topic, but this book addresses the problem of suffering.
 
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