How do the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic faiths differ?

[Magicsilence]

I would hazard a guess that this question is certainly one which a number of Latin posters are searching for the answer to, and I believe exploring the topic in detail will help both sides better understand the sometimes strong natured posts that result on both sides.

For clarity, it would help if those answering could be highly specific rather than point to vague theological constructs that add little to discussion.

How different is the faith of the (your) Eastern Catholic Church to that of its Orthodox counterpart? (Maronites aside ) Please feel free to respond according to the Church to which you belong.

In Jesus Christ,

 

[Aramis]

For clarity, it would help if those answering could be highly specific rather than point to vague theological constructs that add little to discussion.

The problem is that, often, even within a given Church sui iuris, the praxis varies widely (and the beliefs as well).

Some Ruthenian parishes can pass for orthodox at a casual observation, others could pass for Maronite or even Roman until the liturgy starts.

The fundamental difference is universal: The EC’s of the Byzantine Churches accept the Pope as the direct heir to Peter, that Peter was the head of the Apotles by Christ’s instruction, and this leadership role has been handed on since, and thus the Pope is the chief apostle and vicar of Christ.

The EO (in varying ways and degrees) reject some or all of these.

 

[mgy100]

While it is likely that you could go to certain Eastern catholic parishes and if they were using Slavonic or not-your native language, you might think you were in an Orthodox Church. That’s externals.
There is a great difference between even Byzantine Catholics or UGCC and the Orthodox once you get past the fact that their liturgical practices are close. I don’t have time right now, but I can point to some differences later.

 

[BluesPicker]

The two Churches are really very close. The Orthodox Church is much as all Catholic Churches were before the 1054 AD.

  Mathew Chapter 16  verses 13-19  clearly state that Jesus Christ  is the  Son of God  and  that this is the Foundation He builds His Church.   Peter who  spoke up and professed this also  shares in this stability.  

It would be best to do a formal study  and look at all the evidence.  This subject is vast and important.  It is not a trival question.

God Bless and Season’s Greetings,
BluesPicker

 

[mgy100]

It is only worth talking about if people open their minds and automatically don’t turn it into a mud-slinging fest. There is a slew of books available on this subject, even Bishop Kallistos’ Books, published under his birth name, Timothy Ware, and these are for sale at Border’s, Barnes & Nobles.
It’s more than the papal issue. I would suggest familiarizing one’s self with the Orthodox church structure in order to firmly grasp the bigger picture.

 

[Ignatius]

While it is likely that you could go to certain Eastern catholic parishes and if they were using Slavonic or not-your native language, you might think you were in an Orthodox Church. That’s externals.
There is a great difference between even Byzantine Catholics or UGCC and the Orthodox once you get past the fact that their liturgical practices are close. I don’t have time right now, but I can point to some differences later.

Actually, there are no differences from Melkite theology that I am aware of. Please enlighten us if this is not correct.

Many years.

 

[mgy100]

Actually, there are no differences from Melkite theology that I am aware of. Please enlighten us if this is not correct.

Many years.

A) I feel this post is to trap the responder.
B) There is an extensive thread on the Melkites raging already.

 

[Magicsilence]

B) There is an extensive thread on the Melkites raging already.

Exactly, and within it, nothing is very clear.

I was hoping that some Melkites, among other Eastern Catholics, would be kind enough to respond to this thread, that we may learn from them what they believe, and how it differs to the Orthodox faith.

In Jesus Christ,

 

[BluesPicker]

I pray for the same as MagicSilence.

Happy New Year,
May our prayers place us in the Scared Heart of Jesus,
Thomas

 

[marlo]

does all eastern catholics uses the gregorian calendar coz the EO does differ on d calendar. some use gregorian and some uses the julian calendar

I would hazard a guess that this question is certainly one which a number of Latin posters are searching for the answer to, and I believe exploring the topic in detail will help both sides better understand the sometimes strong natured posts that result on both sides.

For clarity, it would help if those answering could be highly specific rather than point to vague theological constructs that add little to discussion.

How different is the faith of the (your) Eastern Catholic Church to that of its Orthodox counterpart? (Maronites aside ) Please feel free to respond according to the Church to which you belong.

In Jesus Christ,

 

[Isa_Almisry]

does all eastern catholics uses the gregorian calendar coz the EO does differ on d calendar. some use gregorian and some uses the julian calendar

Happy New Year.

No they don’t. In Chicago for instance, the Ukrainian St. Nicholas split when they switched to gregorian. Those who rejected the change went on to form SS Volodymyr and Olha, a few blocks away (often described by Orthodox who show it off to visiting relatives as “the most beautiful Orthodox in Chicago that isn’t.” A ROCA bishop did the icons). There was an ugly incident some years ago when parishoners celebrating the Theophany crossed paths with those going to the other parish to celebrate the Nativity.

And not all Eastern Christians use either Julian or Gregorian calendar. The Copts have their own calendar, which begins September 11 (begining of the rise of the Nile, it was the ancient Egyptian calendar, the basis of the Julian). I think the Assyrians and Chaldeans also have their own calendar.

 

[Woodstock]

Some areas of difference between Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox:

The role of the papacy. Though different Eastern Catholics understand the role of the papacy differently, there is a thin but clear line between EC and EO, otherwise there would be fluid movement between the Churches.

The solubility of marriage. In actuality, I can’t find any modern or official Eastern Catholic teachings on this. It seems to be a no-man’s land. They follow the western model of annulments but also follow the eastern theology of the priest marrying the couple in the church. The two don’t really go together. I think this will eventually have to be addressed.

Acceptance of the Latin Church and its core theology. I don’t want to argue which ones. With development of doctrine and the Latin Church’s re-evaluation of what is core to its faith and what is mistakably attributed that status by popular devotion (like limbo), it is work learned men are devoted to for years without answers. With that aside, there is still a basic acceptance of the Latin Church and a unity with her, which the Eastern Orthodox obviously lack.

That’s all I can think of on an official basis. There are plenty of examples of unofficial practices and teachings, but these are slowly being purged and have been shown to not be a core belief (and sometimes opposed to a core belief) of Eastern Catholicism.

 

[Alexius]

It should be said that it is not the Gregorian Calendar that some Orthodox use, but a “Revised” Julian calendar. A few Orthodox churches like the ones in Finland, had used the Gregorian, however. The Revised Julian sets Christmas on the Gregorian day, but Easter remains a movable feast. This seems to slip peoples’ minds sometimes…

When my step-father worked at the law firm before it closed, his secretary was a Ukrainian Catholic. She was on the Old Calendar. Most of the Eastern Catholic churches around me; however, are on the Gregorian Calendar (not the Revised Julian as that was formed by PoC in 1920’s).

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[mgy100]

Some areas of difference between Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox:

The role of the papacy. Though different Eastern Catholics understand the role of the papacy differently, there is a thin but clear line between EC and EO, otherwise there would be fluid movement between the Churches.

The solubility of marriage. In actuality, I can’t find any modern or official Eastern Catholic teachings on this. It seems to be a no-man’s land. They follow the western model of annulments but also follow the eastern theology of the priest marrying the couple in the church. The two don’t really go together. I think this will eventually have to be addressed.

Acceptance of the Latin Church and its core theology. I don’t want to argue which ones. With development of doctrine and the Latin Church’s re-evaluation of what is core to its faith and what is mistakably attributed that status by popular devotion (like limbo), it is work learned men are devoted to for years without answers. With that aside, there is still a basic acceptance of the Latin Church and a unity with her, which the Eastern Orthodox obviously lack.

That’s all I can think of on an official basis. There are plenty of examples of unofficial practices and teachings, but these are slowly being purged and have been shown to not be a core belief (and sometimes opposed to a core belief) of Eastern Catholicism.

I’m not sure the word “lacks” is the best choice.

• visit the Uniontown Pilgrimage to see some big differences
  between Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox.

 

[Woodstock]

I’m not sure the word “lacks” is the best choice.

• visit the Uniontown Pilgrimage to see some big differences
  between Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox.

Regarding the word lack: Eastern Catholics have it, Eastern Orthodox don’t. I intended it only in that strict definition, but now that you’ve expanded it to mean missing or incomplete, I would also agree with that definition being applied to the Orthodox lacking unity with Rome being a difference between Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox.

I’ve never been to the Uniontown Pilgrimage. Will you please tell me which fundamental and/or theological differences you’ve observed there?

 

[mgy100]

Regarding the word lack: Eastern Catholics have it, Eastern Orthodox don’t. I intended it only in that strict definition, but now that you’ve expanded it to mean missing or incomplete, I would also agree with that definition being applied to the Orthodox lacking unity with Rome being a difference between Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox.

I’ve never been to the Uniontown Pilgrimage. Will you please tell me which fundamental and/or theological differences you’ve observed there?

The “lacking” is that the Orthodox and Catholics don’t have the ability to have the Patriarchs of the Pentarchy sit down and be able to discuss things as one. We all can’t sit down as one and speak as one.

Uniontown Pilgrimage (held at a Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic convent by the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church): perpetual rosary, devotions at the Immaculate Conception shrine, exposition/adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, and the curious “veil wearing non-Ruthenian refugees who kneel for communion and bar their children from the Eucharist.”
Not to mention what you said above about divorce/annulments.
How much deviance in dogmatic adhesion is permissible by an Eastern Catholic without disengaging themselves from the communion with the Pope. These are some serious questions that need to be answered. Because while some sui juris churches claim they have the right to deny the Magisterium of the church, it isn’t absolutely clear if they are allowed to do this.
I believe an attendance check at the recent Ravenna conference will enlighten us to the attitude of the Vatican on this matter.

 

[Alexius]

The “lacking” is that the Orthodox and Catholics don’t have the ability to have the Patriarchs of the Pentarchy sit down and be able to discuss things as one. We all can’t sit down as one and speak as one.

Uniontown Pilgrimage (held at a Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic convent by the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church): perpetual rosary, devotions at the Immaculate Conception shrine, exposition/adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, and the curious “veil wearing non-Ruthenian refugees who kneel for communion and bar their children from the Eucharist.”
Not to mention what you said above about divorce/annulments.
How much deviance in dogmatic adhesion is permissible by an Eastern Catholic without disengaging themselves from the communion with the Pope. These are some serious questions that need to be answered. Because while some sui juris churches claim they have the right to deny the Magisterium of the church, it isn’t absolutely clear if they are allowed to do this.
I believe an attendance check at the recent Ravenna conference will enlighten us to the attitude of the Vatican on this matter.

You are right. These things need to be addressed, but I doubt anyone on here is willing to do so…There needs to be a council to address the inconsistensies between Eastern and Western Catholics. If I were the Pope, then I would do this asap. Until then, the amount of Eastern Catholics will continue to decline…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[jj2011]

Uniontown Pilgrimage (held at a Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic convent by the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church): perpetual rosary, devotions at the Immaculate Conception shrine, exposition/adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, and the curious “veil wearing non-Ruthenian refugees who kneel for communion and bar their children from the Eucharist.”

Wearing of veils was enjoined by St. Paul; why is that practice disparaged here?

 

[dvdjs]

Uniontown Pilgrimage (held at a Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic convent by the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church): perpetual rosary, devotions at the Immaculate Conception shrine, exposition/adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, and the curious “veil wearing non-Ruthenian refugees who kneel for communion and bar their children from the Eucharist.”

This is all very interesting, but the question was about faith, and you are talking about praxis. Or do you consider your response to be about faith? I admit that I sometimes get the idea that Romophobia is central to the faith of internet’s novo-orthodox.

Fortunately, I also have considerable experience with real parish life with a mix of cradles and converts and immigrants in an Orthodox mission. From that experience it’s easy to be reassured by all of the good people who are working out their salvation with fear and trembling, rather than pontificating from their lofty perch on the first rungs of the ladder of ascent.

And to what, indeed, would you compare our praxis, anyway? To ACROD, who, after all of the history of this century, is actually not so very far ahead of us in liturgical restoration and de-latinization. (P.S. It’s clear your not reporting from the most recent Odpusts.)

How much deviance in dogmatic adhesion is permissible by an Eastern Catholic without disengaging themselves from the communion with the Pope. These are some serious questions that need to be answered.

Pardon me. It is for the Catholic communion and magisterium to assess the gravity of the these issues and the need for definition and declaration. I don’t doubt that you might find it all very interesting, but I cannot fathom your chutzpah in assessing seriousness and in calling for answers. The noive!

I believe an attendance check at the recent Ravenna conference will enlighten us to the attitude of the Vatican on this matter.

When International Orthodoxy will agree to sit down at a meeting that includes the dreaded U … know-what’s, (as does occur in at meetings in north America), then the attendance check will be meaningful.

 

[Woodstock]

Wearing of veils was enjoined by St. Paul; why is that practice disparaged here?

I don’t have a problem with women wearing headcoverings. There is a stereotype attached particularly to the lace mantilla when seen in Eastern Catholic Churches. They are associated with traditionalist Latins who, on average, do not want the east to be eastern and are only looking for western symbols and reverence. This is not an absolute, but is a stereotype.

Likewise, non-immigrant women wearing full babushkas, long drab skirts, and ethnic clothing is associated with the opposite extreme, for right or wrong.

I agree with Aramis that most of what was listed was praxis and did not fit the criteria being discussed, but I also point out that theology changes when practices change so a predominance of western customs has a bearing on a discussion on theological differences. We keep (or restore) the eastern customs because they most fully express the eastern theology.