How do the Mormons do it?

[Telstar]

I find it ironic that the LDS belief in a church being established by Jesus in America, just seems to prove that, not only did Jesus make a huge mistake in picking the first 12 Apostles (that obviously were totally incompetent to succeed in building a viable church that “the gates of hail shall not prevail against it”), but He also goofed big-time when He picked the ‘tribe’ in the Americas to build His church, here, because they were too busy killing each other off to bother to follow any of His teachings.

I can’t even fathom how anyone could ever believe that all of this was supposed to be the work of the true Son of God. Knowing that entire scenario, I also have to wonder how it reflects on the image that the members of the LDS church have of Jesus, not to mention the Holy Spirit. The whole fable makes Jesus out to be nothing but a bumbling idiot that pathetically failed His Father’s mission, not once, but twice. How could they possibly believe in that kind of God? Wouldn’t that seem to make those people think that God doesn’t have any kind of real power at all, if Jesus has to keep starting over, and over, and over, again, before He finally gets it right??

That has to be the most horrendously insidious insult to every Person of the Holy Trinity, for anyone to ever believe that God could be such a completely incompetent fool! I, for one, would certainly not want to have to face Him on the other side of the veil, and try to explain to Him how I could ever believe that He could be such an utter buffoon! Somehow, I really don’t think He’ll be in the mood to even listen to any attempt at an explanation for that one. I doubt that He likes being seen as an idiot by the people that are supposed to be His ‘chosen ones’.

Just another random thought from Telstar, albeit a pretty scary one when you really think about it. :bigyikes:

 

[NewSeeker]

1Voice,

Also, and more importantly, the whole reason for there to be a book given to the world by God to provide another witness that Jesus Christ is the Savior and Redeemer of the world, is so that people could receive that witness only according to their "faith, heed, and diligence…[snip]…For anyone to think that they are going to “outsmart” God and find the evidence through some physical means, yet according to His promises will only be found by a personal test of faith, desire, diligence, and heed, seems to be saying they think God is not really omnipotent after all.

This perfectly illustrates the built-in ‘logic’ of the LDS approach to the Book of Mormon. Only those who read it, pray about it, and accept it are sincere. Those who read, pray, and do not accept are, ipso facto, faithless, heedless, and lacking in desire and diligence. The proof for this is in their failure to gain a testimony of the book - because, dagnabbit, the church is twue!

I can’t think of a better example of faulty, circular logic than this.

 

[ParkerD]

…

I can’t think of a better example of faulty, circular logic than this.

New Seeker,

Since a few years ago I had conversations with atheists about belief in God, then I am very familiar with the “circular logic” come-back that was very, very common as their response. I would estimate that it is the most common come-back they wrote.

The Bible and the Book of Mormon both affirm that spiritual knowledge is only attainable by spiritual means, meaning it will not be obtained by “logic” or the “wisdom of the world”. This provides that people will have as many truths about living by gospel teachings (which atheists do when they live such principles as loving their neighbor and helping the poor, which some often do) as they desire and seek.

 

[NewSeeker]

New Seeker,

Since a few years ago I had conversations with atheists about belief in God, then I am very familiar with the “circular logic” come-back that was very, very common as their response. I would estimate that it is the most common come-back they wrote.

The Bible and the Book of Mormon both affirm that spiritual knowledge is only attainable by spiritual means, meaning it will not be obtained by “logic” or the “wisdom of the world”. This provides that people will have as many truths about living by gospel teachings (which atheists do when they live such principles as loving their neighbor and helping the poor, which some often do) as they desire and seek.

It also means that people will have as many subjective ideas about gospel truths as there are people who are interested in the gospel. Without an objective standard, there’s no such thing as actual gospel truth, just private opinion about truth.

 

[zaffiroborant]

1

seems to be saying they think God is not really omnipotent after all.

Oh piffle Parker, no one here has implied any such thing, and your saying so seems like a sneaky way to get in an ad hominem thus avoiding the subject at hand. I suppose one might understand these tacics seeing how you apparently think God is such a “Sneaky Pete”

 

[ParkerD]

Oh piffle Parker, no one here has implied any such thing, and your saying so seems like a sneaky way to get in an ad hominem thus avoiding the subject at hand. I suppose one might understand these tacics seeing how you apparently think God is such a “Sneaky Pete”

The statement had to do with archaeologists looking for evidence of Book of Mormon peoples. My comment related to that statement.

Revelation 13:7, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, and 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11 and 14 show that God could but doesn’t provide physical evidence and withholds spiritual knowledge dependent upon the person’s faith, and that there are purposes He has for doing that.

 

[NewSeeker]

The statement had to do with archaeologists looking for evidence of Book of Mormon peoples. My comment related to that statement.

Revelation 13:7, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, and 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11 and 14 show that God could doesn’t provide physical evidence and withholds spiritual knowledge dependent upon the person’s faith, and that there are purposes He has for doing that.

This only applies to individuals seeking spiritual knowledge from God. It doesn’t apply to times like this, when a Catholic and a Mormon are in disagreement. There needs to be something that transcends both parties and their subjective experience of God’s presence. The only thing that serves is an agreed-upon standard: typically, the use of reason and a careful review of the available evidence. Swapping testimonies and spiritual experiences is a waste of everyone’s time. As a Catholic with Mormon family members, I always begin a gospel discussion by saying - “I’m happy to discuss these matters with you. Only check your testimony at the door or we’ll just be wasting each others’ time. Let’s just stick to the facts.” Usually, they ends the conversation before it even gets going. That’s not my intent, but I’m just being honest. A Mormon bearing a testimony means nothing to me as a Catholic.

 

[1voice]

1Voice,

It is always interesting to me that “archaeologists” assume they could find undisputed evidence of some kind of archaeology for the Nephites or Lamanites, when the Book of Mormon itself says that the Lamanites destroyed all records and anything that could remind their people that the Nephites even existed–and did so with a passion and a vengeance. Also, that the Lamanites were in continual war among themselves and with outside groups, and would nearly be destroyed by the outside groups.

Also, and more importantly, the whole reason for there to be a book given to the world by God to provide another witness that Jesus Christ is the Savior and Redeemer of the world, is so that people could receive that witness only according to their “faith, heed, and diligence”–meaning that God who has absolute omnipotence could certainly use men who were seeking vengeance to destroy the evidence of the records and of the simple homes and buildings of the Nephite people. Cataclysmic factors such as earthquakes and hurricanes would also play a part to change the face of the land, and hide evidences within the earth. For anyone to think that they are going to “outsmart” God and find the evidence through some physical means, yet according to His promises will only be found by a personal test of faith, desire, diligence, and heed, seems to be saying they think God is not really omnipotent after all.

The archeologists mentioned that the response from LDS leadership is … Just because no one found proof doesnt mean that the stories are not true.

The archeologists state that it was their intention to prove Mormon writings to be factual … just as has been done in supporting evidence of the historic/archeological proof that the Bible is not just a fable … as many have asserted. They further stated that if there were such a vast civilization … they would have found something.

… There is also the ancient writing … that turned out to be an Egyptian prayer written in hieroglyphics.

 

[1voice]

1Voice,

It is always interesting to me that “archaeologists” assume they could find undisputed evidence of some kind of archaeology for the Nephites or Lamanites, when the Book of Mormon itself says that the Lamanites destroyed all records and anything that could remind their people that the Nephites even existed–and did so with a passion and a vengeance. Also, that the Lamanites were in continual war among themselves and with outside groups, and would nearly be destroyed by the outside groups.

Also, and more importantly, the whole reason for there to be a book given to the world by God to provide another witness that Jesus Christ is the Savior and Redeemer of the world, is so that people could receive that witness only according to their “faith, heed, and diligence”–meaning that God who has absolute omnipotence could certainly use men who were seeking vengeance to destroy the evidence of the records and of the simple homes and buildings of the Nephite people. Cataclysmic factors such as earthquakes and hurricanes would also play a part to change the face of the land, and hide evidences within the earth. For anyone to think that they are going to “outsmart” God and find the evidence through some physical means, yet according to His promises will only be found by a personal test of faith, desire, diligence, and heed, seems to be saying they think God is not really omnipotent after all.

If a man came to you … and said that an angel told him that he was to establish a new religion … and one of the foundations of that religion is a document written in a strange cryptic form of lines and pictures … that only he could translate and understand. A hundred or so years later archeologists figure out how to understand those lines and pictures … and as it turns out … the man that founded the religion based on his translation … turns out to be completely wrong… Would you believe anything else that he said about that religion?

 

[SteveVH]

1Voice,

It is always interesting to me that “archaeologists” assume they could find undisputed evidence of some kind of archaeology for the Nephites or Lamanites, when the Book of Mormon itself says that the Lamanites destroyed all records and anything that could remind their people that the Nephites even existed–and did so with a passion and a vengeance. Also, that the Lamanites were in continual war among themselves and with outside groups, and would nearly be destroyed by the outside groups.

Is there any evidence within these “outside groups” that they were in continual war with the Lamanites? Do we even know who these “outside” groups were? Is there any evidence of their existence?

Also, and more importantly, the whole reason for there to be a book given to the world by God to provide another witness that Jesus Christ is the Savior and Redeemer of the world, is so that people could receive that witness only according to their “faith, heed, and diligence”–meaning that God who has absolute omnipotence could certainly use men who were seeking vengeance to destroy the evidence of the records and of the simple homes and buildings of the Nephite people. Cataclysmic factors such as earthquakes and hurricanes would also play a part to change the face of the land, and hide evidences within the earth. For anyone to think that they are going to “outsmart” God and find the evidence through some physical means, yet according to His promises will only be found by a personal test of faith, desire, diligence, and heed, seems to be saying they think God is not really omnipotent after all.

This entire scenario seems out of character as to how God acts. Are you trying to say that it was his will that all physical evidence should be removed so that we are left with only “faith, heed, and diligence” (whatever that means)? If this is the case then why wasn’t Jerusalem, in fact the entire holy land, wiped off the face of the earth as well. We have mountains of evidence of the existence of the Jewish and early Christian cultures, wouldn’t you say? We have detailed, documented history. We know where the Temple was located. We know where Christ was born, baptized and crucified. We even know details such as where the house of Peter is located. We can go there and touch it. Why should this second testimony of Jesus be any different? Again you act as though reason, a gift given to mankind in order that he might discern truth, is not something to be desired, but rather shunned. Your answer for a complete lack of evidence is that it was God’s will that no evidence be left behind. Do you not find that just a little too convenient, or at least see how those of us that do employ reason as a tool in the search for truth might find it a little too convenient?

 

[aquabatix]

I suppose that all evidence would have to be taken off the face of the earth seeing that they had things that would not be seen again on this continent for hundreds of years. If in fact they had the iron working, donkeys, pigs and silk, then there would be evidence of these things. These things on their own do not identify the people from any other, but the lack of them and the insistence of the BoM that they did have them, makes the entire thing suspect.

 

[ParkerD]

If a man came to you … and said that an angel told him that he was to establish a new religion … and one of the foundations of that religion is a document written in a strange cryptic form of lines and pictures … that only he could translate and understand. A hundred or so years later archeologists figure out how to understand those lines and pictures … and as it turns out … the man that founded the religion based on his translation … turns out to be completely wrong… Would you believe anything else that he said about that religion?

1Voice,

Since you don’t believe Abraham went to Egypt and taught the Egyptians, then we come from a far different perspective about that papyrus. I look at it as what happens when people take truth (or as much truth as they wanted to learn) and make it into what satisfies their own whims. The Rosetta Stone captured meaning at one single point in time, after generations of changes in religious ideas of the Egyptians. To expect that those religious ideas were unchanged over those many hundreds of years, is an assumption that if made is unfounded by realities of history. The original would have been a far different meaning, and the “funerary” papyrus wasn’t the papyrus that contained the Book of Abraham, anyway.

 

[ParkerD]

Is there any evidence within these “outside groups” that they were in continual war with the Lamanites? Do we even know who these “outside” groups were? Is there any evidence of their existence?

SteveVH,

Take your pick of any of the indigenous tribal groups of North and South America. There is indeed evidence of their existence.

This entire scenario seems out of character as to how God acts. Are you trying to say that it was his will that all physical evidence should be removed so that we are left with only “faith, heed, and diligence” (whatever that means)? If this is the case then why wasn’t Jerusalem, in fact the entire holy land, wiped off the face of the earth as well. We have mountains of evidence of the existence of the Jewish and early Christian cultures, wouldn’t you say? We have detailed, documented history. We know where the Temple was located. We know where Christ was born, baptized and crucified. We even know details such as where the house of Peter is located. We can go there and touch it. Why should this second testimony of Jesus be any different? Again you act as though reason, a gift given to mankind in order that he might discern truth, is not something to be desired, but rather shunned. Your answer for a complete lack of evidence is that it was God’s will that no evidence be left behind. Do you not find that just a little too convenient, or at least see how those of us that do employ reason as a tool in the search for truth might find it a little too convenient?

Yes, a phrase one sometimes hears is “the inconvenient Messiah”. There is a filtering process, but the important thing is people ultimately are blessed with what they desire, want, and have faith to receive, and thus God gives them what they deep-down want.

A teaching the Savior used that was an apt one for your questions is contained in Luke 7:35.

 

[1voice]

1Voice,

It is always interesting to me that “archaeologists” assume they could find undisputed evidence of some kind of archaeology for the Nephites or Lamanites, when the Book of Mormon itself says that the Lamanites destroyed all records and anything that could remind their people that the Nephites even existed–and did so with a passion and a vengeance. Also, that the Lamanites were in continual war among themselves and with outside groups, and would nearly be destroyed by the outside groups.

Every single book of the old testament except fot the book of Esther is found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. There are over 5000 manuscripts or partial manuscripts of the New Testament… going back to within one or two hundred years of the events depicted.
The written records are a minimum 2000 years old … or more.

There is no ancient copy of the Book of Mormon. The time between the last events depicted in the Book of Mormon … and the first writing of these events is 1400 years.

Where are the documents … where is the supporting archeology and history that we find amply … when we dealing with the Bible?

Archeology tells the truth and nothing but the truth … Civilizations have been destroying each other throughout history … Yet there is always proof that they were there. They leave their tombs, houses, temples, foundations … as well as the destruction itself.
The Jaredites were promised that they would become the greatest nation on Earth … There is absolutely no evidence anywhere to support that claim … The Roman, Egyptian Babylonian, Persian,Hellenist/Greek, Assyrians, Chin Dynasties, Druids, Norsemen, Cananites, Philistines … all of these empires and conquerers as well as conquered … all left visible evidence … yet Three huge empires … including the ‘greatest nation on earth’ … not a trace… anywhere.

The Lamanites were supposed to have destroyed the Nephites civilization around 400AD.
Earlier versions of the book of Mormon depict Mayan ruins as an indication of the location of some of these events in Mormon history.
The most advanced civilizations in Central and South America peaked in 600-900 AD. Well after the events of the Book of Mormon were supposed to have taken place.

The DNA of the decedents of Native Americans show that the original people migrated from Mongolia … Not from Israel as is claimed by the LSD Church on the plaque near the Hill Cumorah in Palmyra NY.

---

“There is no map anywhere showing ancient Mormon lands because they cant place it on Earth”
… William Wilson, LDS Anthropologist, Northern Arizona University.

---

“You cant have a geography because there is no real world setting for the events described in the Book of Mormon. We cant agree upon it because any time we try to put it in a real world setting … we have to either distort that real world setting or the text itself. The LDS Church takes no official position on the geography for the Book of Mormon. One of the reasons for this is obvious … it is because none of the events ever took place anywhere.”
… Thomas W. Murphy, PhD, LDS Anthropologist

There wer over 30 major cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Because of the development of the understanding of ancient writing … Anthropologists are now able to read most of the names of the ancient cities in Central and South America. None of the names resemble those in the Book of Mormon.

It is impossible for a large city to exist without leaving archaeological evidence.
…Dr Yizhar Hirschchfeld, Archaeologist, Hebrew University

No wheat, … No cattle, sheep, goats, horses, elephants… none of these things, specifically described in the Book of Mormon, existed in the Americas during the time frame when these ancient civilizations were supposed to have existed.

The Book of Mormon mentions the use of steel as well as copper and gold. Not a single location for the smelting of steel has ever been found in the ancient Americas.

Metal armor, books made of metal, metal currency, metal coins.
The Nephites were supposed to have used metal coins fo a thousand years.

In fact … metal coins were never found or used in anywhere in the Americas until the Europeans arrived.

Theere were said to have been written a tremendous number of records, over a thousand years… on plates made of ore. None has ever been seen.

Between 600 BC and 400 AD no civilization in Central and South America wrote on metal tablets … in fact there was an absence of the use of metal for almost anything.
… Hector Escobedo, New World Archeologist, Guatemala

 

[zaffiroborant]

but the important thing is people ultimately are blessed with what they desire, want,

As is clearly illustrated in the Moroni promise scenario.

 

[1voice]

1Voice,

Since you don’t believe Abraham went to Egypt and taught the Egyptians, then we come from a far different perspective about that papyrus. I look at it as what happens when people take truth (or as much truth as they wanted to learn) and make it into what satisfies their own whims. The Rosetta Stone captured meaning at one single point in time, after generations of changes in religious ideas of the Egyptians. To expect that those religious ideas were unchanged over those many hundreds of years, is an assumption that if made is unfounded by realities of history. The original would have been a far different meaning, and the “funerary” papyrus wasn’t the papyrus that contained the Book of Abraham, anyway.

Mormon experts who agreed with the findings and after analyzing handwriting, spelling, content, and other contextual issues, determined that the papyri was written sometime during the late Ptolemaic or early Roman period (circa 50 B.C. to A.D. 50). This is problematic for Mormons, however, for if the papyri are only about 2,000 years old, they are far too “new” to have been 'written on by the hand of Abraham '.

---

with the rediscovery of the papyri in 1966, … The rediscovered papyri contained not only text, but the same drawings that Joseph had drawn into the Book of Abraham! It was now possible to absolutely determine whether or not Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God.

This particular scroll was examined by experts (including Mormon experts who agreed with the findings) …

Joseph Smith said that Facsimile No. 1 depicted a bird as the ‘Angel of the Lord’ with ‘Abraham fastened upon an altar,’ ‘being offered up as a sacrifice by a false priest. The pots under the altar were various gods ‘Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, Korash, Pharaoh,’ etc. But Egyptologists translated to original papyri and discovered that it was ‘an embalming scene showing the deceased lying on a lion-couch.’ Facsimile No. 1 actually ‘depicts the mythical embalming and resurrection of Osiris, Egyptian god of the underworld. Osiris was slain by his jealous brother Set, who cut up his body into 16 pieces and scattered them…The jackal-headed god Anubis is shown embalming the body of Osiris on the traditional lion-headed couch so that he might come back to life…’ (’…by his own hand upon papyrus’ Institute for Religious Research, Grand Rapids, Mich. 1992, p. 62)

---

In Joseph Smiths drawing in his manuscript titled Facsimile No. 1 … Joseph Smith, in fact, changed the drawing of the original to include a knife in the hand of the standing figure … which did not exist in the original drawing on the papyrus (see the link below for detailed pictures)

---

The Truth of the Translations
In the original papyri, Facsimile No. 1 is attached to hieroglyphics from which Joseph derived the beginning of the book of Abraham which begins with the words, ‘In the Land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my father, I, Abraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence’(1:1). In reality, however, the hieroglyphics translate as, ‘Osiris shall be conveyed into the Great Pool of Khons – and likewise Osiris Hor, justified, born to Tikhebyt, justified – after his arms have been placed on his heart and the Breathing permit (which [Isis] made and has writing on its inside and outside) has been wrapped in royal linen and placed under his left arm near his heart; the rest of the mummy-bandages should be wrapped over it. The man for whom this book was copied will breath forever and ever as the bas of the gods do.’

The document is not the writing of Abraham in Egypt, but is instead the opening portion of an Egyptian “Shait en Sensen”, or “Book of Breathings”, a late funerary text that grew out of the earlier and more complex “Book of the Dead.” This particular scroll was examined by experts (including Mormon experts who agreed with the findings) and after analyzing handwriting, spelling, content, and other contextual issues, determined that the papyri was written sometime during the late Ptolemaic or early Roman period (circa 50 B.C. to A.D. 50). This is problematic for Mormons, however, for if the papyri are only about 2,000 years old, they are far too “new” to have been 'written on by the hand of Abraham '.

Thousands of Mormons have left the church as a result of these findings.

pleaseconvinceme.com/index/Can_We_Trust_the_Book_of_Abraham

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Christianley,

A testimony doesn’t “trump” logic, but it does have the following considerations involved:

1–Is the person being sincere in their prayers to Heavenly Father?

2–Is the person being sincere in desiring to live by truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ, including keeping the commandments, repenting of sins, having faith in Jesus Christ as the Redeemer and Savior of the world and as the Good Shepherd, and earnestly living by the “word of God” found in the holy scriptures, including the Bible as a bedrock foundation of all the scriptures and recognizing that scripture came by revelation to prophets and apostles or by record keeping by those appointed to keep records of the house of Israel?

3–Is the person familiar with how the Holy Spirit bears witness to the soul of the person, as the disciples on the road to Emmaus experienced when Christ taught them about the scriptures that bore record of Him?

Those considerations being in place, including a sufficient knowledge of the Bible to be familiar with the prophecies of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Jesus Christ, and the Apostle John the Revelator, then there is no need for a feeling that the testimony has “trumped” logic–the truths are consistent with logic, but also consistent with the sifting process about motives and desires and faith that God set in place on this earth and allows to happen in the many ways that sifting process happens.

God is perfect, and His sifting process in His plan of salvation is perfect also–no mistakes.

So if I knew someone who prayed ernestly all the time, someone who I believed was honest and sincere, someone who I believed was upright in how he conducted himself, someone who said that he is guided by the Holy Ghost; if that person gave me “The Lord of the Rings” and said that that is the unabridged new Gospel I’m supposed to believe now in Elves and Valinor and that the evil one’s name is Melkor?

Sorry, does not follow.

 

[ParkerD]

Every single book of the old testament except fot the book of Esther is found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. There are over 5000 manuscripts or partial manuscripts of the New Testament… going back to within one or two hundred years of the events depicted.
The written records are a minimum 2000 years old … or more.

There is no ancient copy of the Book of Mormon. The time between the last events depicted in the Book of Mormon … and the first writing of these events is 1400 years.

Where are the documents … where is the supporting archeology and history that we find amply … when we dealing with the Bible?

1 Voice,

There are Biblical translations and texts from Biblical times that have been destroyed, totally and completely. There are books mentioned in the Bible that are not found anywhere in the world. Just because the Lamanites were successful in destroying all evidence of the Nephite writings and culture, does not mean those did not exist.

Archeology tells the truth and nothing but the truth … Civilizations have been destroying each other throughout history … Yet there is always proof that they were there.

Anyone doing recent reading about archaeological discoveries know that new discoveries occur, sometimes beneath a “dig” that had already been examined. This should not be news.

The Jaredites were promised that they would become the greatest nation on Earth …

The DNA of the descendants of Native Americans show that the original people migrated from Mongolia … Not from Israel as is claimed by the LDS Church on the plaque near the Hill Cumorah in Palmyra NY.

I have no idea why you have quoted a plaque, nor why the blanket statement as though you know the ancestry of every tribal group of the Americas.

---

There were over 30 major cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Because of the development of the understanding of ancient writing … Anthropologists are now able to read most of the names of the ancient cities in Central and South America. None of the names resemble those in the Book of Mormon.

So what?

It is impossible for a large city to exist without leaving archaeological evidence.
…Dr Yizhar Hirschchfeld, Archaeologist, Hebrew University

Did he define “large”? Was he talking about the New World, where the climate conditions are far different than he is used to in the Old World where he studied?

The Book of Mormon mentions the use of steel as well as copper and gold. Not a single location for the smelting of steel has ever been found in the ancient Americas.

It doesn’t mention those as commonly used, so to expect to find a smelting location would be like trying the find one needle in a thousand haystacks.

Metal armor, books made of metal, metal currency, metal coins.
The Nephites were supposed to have used metal coins for a thousand years.

No–a misunderstanding about the text.

There were said to have been written a tremendous number of records, over a thousand years… on plates made of ore. None has ever been seen.

They were not common. To expect to find them as though they were a common occurrence, shows a complete misunderstanding of the text. To expect to find them at all shows a complete misunderstanding of the text, also. They were a one-of-a-kind product for a one-of-a-kind purpose.

 

[catholic-rcia]

1 Voice,

There are Biblical translations and texts from Biblical times that have been destroyed, totally and completely. There are books mentioned in the Bible that are not found anywhere in the world. Just because the Lamanites were successful in destroying all evidence of the Nephite writings and culture, does not mean those did not exist.

Anyone doing recent reading about archaeological discoveries know that new discoveries occur, sometimes beneath a “dig” that had already been examined. This should not be news.

The Jaredites were promised that they would become the greatest nation on Earth …

 

[1voice]

1voice:
The Jaredites were promised that they would become the greatest nation on Earth …

No, they weren’t.

“And there will I bless thee and thy seed, and raise up unto me of thy seed, and of the seed of thy brother, and they who shall go with thee, a great nation. And there shall be none greater than the nation which I will raise up unto me of thy seed, upon all the face of the earth. And thus I will do unto thee because this long time ye have cried unto me” (Ether 1:43)

“and never could be a people more blessed than were they, and more prospered by the hand of the Lord” (Ether 10:28).