How do the Mormons do it?

[Stephen168]

One of the experiences I have had with a co-worker/friend of mine who is Mormon, is that whenever we get into a debate I am always left with the feeling that he feels justified in agreeing with most of what I would say even though it went against what he said he believed. When I thought about his attitude towards scripture and God it was almost as if, for hypothetical reasons, say he was the only Mormon left on earth then he would receive the revelations necessary to carry on Mormonism, and it would be the same for all priesthood holding members.

There was a Mormon who is now an ex-Mormon after he thought about what you just said in relation to the “Great Apostasy.”

1. According to Mormonism there is no way that “priesthood authority” could be lost in the Mormon Church.
2. Mormonism claims to be the restored church of Christ
3. If “priesthood authority” can not be lost in the current church of Christ, then it could not be lost in the original Church started by Christ Christ 2000 year ago.
4. Therefore; there is no need for a restoration.
5. Joseph Smith made it all up.

 

[Naf623]

Jesus Christ gave us His sacraments, the foundation of liturgy, and within 70 years, there was already a uniformity of belief and practice through the then known Christian world.

Really, because it seems that the second and third centuries saw various changes to baptism for a start. Firstly restricting it to only two of the Church festival days, then adding preparation time as a catechumen; neither of which have any doctrinal basis taught by Christ or the Apostles. Newly baptised converted were fed milk and honey; anointing with oil was added, variously before the baptism, after or both; sometimes an exorcist might be employed to further embellish the proceedings. And it was not until the third century that immersion was done away with and a sprinkling of water (hardly symbolic of death and resurrection as immersion clearly is) was deemed sufficient.
Infant baptism was never suggested by Christ or the Apostles. The Lord Himself clearly had nothing but the greatest love for children. Nothing regarding the baptism of infants is heard until around the time of Irenaeus (AD 130-200), and it was clearly much disputed right up until it was deemed necessary to make it official doctrine in the third century.
Unless I’m very much mistaken, a century is much longer than 70 years… and three of them considerably longer still…

I do not see logic …Jesus Christ’s teachings and practice…that of Christianity is very different than that of Mormonism’s…Mormonism’s long running beliefs were a different belief system…if it is true…then we did not hear all of the truth until 1800, America.

That is a pretty big gap of information from God Who claims to be Truth before Pilate…

But according to your beliefs, we did not hear all of it until Jesus’ time, 4000+ years also seems a pretty big gap…

to what purpose is the Book of Mormon? There is all that we need in Scripture and in the Church for holiness and morality.

What new addition to the moral life and the knowledge of God does Mormonism provide?

That God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are three separate and distinct personages, collectively forming the Godhead. Three in persons, one in purpose.
That God the Father and Jesus Christ each have bodies of flesh and bones, as tangible as ours.
That baptism is an essential ordinance for salvation, and that God (being loving and merciful as we know Him to be) has wisely instituted a way that those who do not have the opportunity to receive it in life can have it performed so they may choose to accept this and not be found at a disadvantage in eternity for something beyond their control.
I could go on…

1. Tricks the brain into thinking the body is already carrying a baby so the ovaries are less likely to release an egg; however, eggs are still released from time to time.

Eggs are released as part of the natural process regardless, and sometimes they are not. This only references its effectiveness; and it is always recommended not to rely on one form of contraception only in any case.

1. Thickens the cervical mucus so sperm has a harder time reaching the fallopian tubes; however, sperm occasionally reaches its destination and on occasion fertilizes an egg.

Its good that you highlighted “on occasion” yourself, because its part of the point. The only sure way to avoid pregnancy without contraception is to abstain completely; because even just planning around the ‘time of the month’ is far from 100% successful. Many women do not have the regular periods that people talk of being so regular you could set a clock by them. And especially after having children, this irregularity often gets worse, and can sometimes start in women who did not experience it before.

1. Hardens the utural lining so that a fertilized egg cannot implant itself; THIS KILLS THE BABY!.

This is much disputed.

So for you to say that the pill is preferrable is shocking.

Please, quote me saying this?

Many cult leaders practice polygamy to show their power over the other males in the group.

Now, when I said that the idea of the real presence is comparable to cannibalistic ritual, you all got very much offended. How is this comment any different?
Oh yes, because its anti-someone else’s religion, not anti-Catholic.

Faith in what? Works of which kind? Whose grace?
That’s why.

Faith in Jesus Christ
Works according to His laws by which we demonstrate our faith and show our true heart
Grace of Jesus Christ.

All are absolutely vital to our eternal salvation.

 

[Naf623]

There was a Mormon who is now an ex-Mormon after he thought about what you just said in relation to the “Great Apostasy.”

1. According to Mormonism there is no way that “priesthood authority” could be lost in the Mormon Church.
2. Mormonism claims to be the restored church of Christ
3. If “priesthood authority” can not be lost in the current church of Christ, then it could not be lost in the original Church started by Christ Christ 2000 year ago.
4. Therefore; there is no need for a restoration.
5. Joseph Smith made it all up.

Point 1. is untrue to begin with, so the rest of the argument is irrelevant.
You, however, do believe that it is completely impossible that the church as established by Christ could ever have veered from true teachings, doctrine and practises. Despite evidence to the contrary, and biblical prophecy of a period on the earth where the word of the Lord was nowhere to be found.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Many cult leaders practice polygamy to show their power over the other males in the group.

I think the Mormon practice of polygamy is a combination of the above. Joseph Smith was on a power trip and used his “revelations” to justify it, and later Mormons tried to rationalize the practice with the Old Testament.

It especially seems to be a show of power in the cases where Joseph Smith married other men’s wives. Talk about a power trip, that other men actually let you marry their wives.

 

[Stephen168]

Now, when I said that the idea of the real presence is comparable to cannibalistic ritual, you all got very much offended. How is this comment any different?
Oh yes, because its anti-someone else’s religion, not anti-Catholic.

I was not offended. Ignorance of what Christians believe, by pagans, goes back to the beginning of Christianity. Christians have always believed in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and pagans have always believed it sounds like cannibalism. Catholics still believe in the real presence and you still think it sounds like cannibalism.
Cult comes from the word ‘cultus’ which is a devotion to an individual like Christians have for a saint. Mormonism at the time of Joseph Smith was clearly a cult and Joseph Smith was there leader. I’m not sure whether ‘cult’ would apply to the current state of Mormonism.

Point 1. is untrue to begin with, so the rest of the argument is irrelevant.

He said it was true. Maybe you could explain, step by step, how the Mormon Church could lose ‘priesthood authority’ and still be a functioning organization.

 

[Denise1957]

It’s hard for me to determine what they think about Jesus and varies according to who you are speaking. What bothers me is that they hold their temple rights so sacred (and secret) and bristle at the thought of anyone speaking negatively about them, and then turn around mock the most sacred thing in Catholicism, the holy Mass. It really burns me. It seems that he/she also refuses to apologize. I’m not surprised, but I am dissapointed.

I don’t understand why they would mock the Mass, since it is mainly a re-enactment of the Sacrifice of Calvary. The Sacrifice of Calvary is central to Christian belief. Also, the Mass incorporates many Jewish aspects. Mormons talk a lot about the OT, but don’t seem to understand the nature and significance of the sacrificial lamb.



I want to add that Mormonism sees a bit similar to the beliefs of the Rev. Moon of the Unification Church. Members of this church have an aversion to the Cross, since they believe that Jesus did not fulfill his divine mission, and wasn’t supposed to die on the Cross. The Rev. Moon believes that he is God’s prophet for today, and that he is fulfilling the mission that Jesus was not able to do. I have a Jewish friend who is a member of the Unification church. She has attended two Masses with me. At one one them, she became teary-eyed, and said how beautiful the Mass was. But she also said that it bothered her to see the corpus on the cross above the altar. Not only because she’s Jewish, but because of what she was taught by her church. She’s such a lovely person, but she can’t get past the crucifix.

 

[KathleenGee]

Naf…you are deflecting…

First, you are deflecting the American mythological contrivances of Joseph Smith, and those who worked with him making the Book of Mormon…

What you say today…seeing how Mormonism is continually morphing, you could be speaking differently may be several years from now. Mormons are removing any links they can find that are revealing their foundational beliefs. Atleast we are consistent.

There is only one God. And from God and of God came Christ; before He was in spirit. At the Incarnation He took on human form. No Jew believes in spirit children…neither do we.

The rite of catechumen was structured as Church form; it isn’t denying baptisms were not taking place any other time either. As stated earlier, the first three hundred years, the Church at various times faced annihilation…the worst happening immediately prior to Constantine where many bishops were killed, many churches destroyed.

Entire households were baptized in Acts, including those of children and infants. We do the same.

Many in ancient Roman times died for Christ, refusing to have their virginity violated. Yes, early Christians abstained from sex, only for procreation…alot of thought put in…considering most lived in danger for the first three hundred years. Atleast in our country, we have had freedom of religion, albeit various forms of persecution…but people have not been killed in our soil because they are Catholic or Mormon. So I as a parent, living under great persecution and fear of being found out, yes…I would be very discerning whether or not to have children…

And St. Paul exhorted married and single alike to have some days set aside each month to abstain and reflect solely on the Lord…Natural family planning works, and there are up to 3 days a month a woman can become pregnant…it is a matter of the woman, and then her husband, working together…and I think the early Christians did very well, considering that marriage to them was sacred…

As their sacred meetings always were those where they professed to renounce lying, stealing and adultery…one spouse, no more…different from your pioneer polygamous leaders and domineering men who told their wives they could not enter the celestial sphere without their permission.

And there is a big gap in your thinking not facing either the great reality of what contraception has done to populations…in spite of what we are hearing today…of its facilitation of sexual promiscuity and adultery.

Christ is of the order of Melchizedek…your Mormon ‘priests’ cannot be compared to Aaron’s. Melzhizedek had no beginning or end…the Scripture did not say anything more…so you cannot contrive another story like he was some kind of diety. The Levite priesthood could only serve a number of years…so they had a beginning and end. Christ is the eternal High Priest…and the Catholic/Orthodox priests serve their life time, no end.

We Catholic and protestant baptized women are also of Christ’s order of priests…we extend Christ into the world through the Word and sacraments. So our Church does not have an exclusive male dominance and control over all members of our faith.

You may be unwilling to study the truth of the Mass. It can be said that the Mass and its redemptive and saving power, through our participation and living out Christ, is the answer to why God permits suffering.

To observe the Mass without knowledge is paralleling the Mormon anti-Catholic rituals that were done away with only recently in 1997…with guys grabbing their throats and choking…

I saw the ‘King James Bible’ on BYU TV again last night…only parts…last night towards the end…showing a Mormon labeled martyr dying at the stake with Catholic clerics watching…and the smoke rising up, going up the side of the fortress…and then words coming out …a short phrase from Sacred Scripture regarding Christians living from the Word of God…to a small piece in Revelations…about the martyrs robed in white surrounding the altar…

Mormonism is now using ‘the bible card’ to win Sola Scriptura Protestants over to their side against the Bible suppressing, Word of God suppressing Catholic Church…

And in regards to the smoke going up in your show, where are your Mormon martyrs???

Following the Mormon anti-Catholic program on KJV, then there is a short take on the Mormon Tabernacle choir singing all great pieces…including ‘Classical Christianity’ …how much money is is your religion making using ‘corrupt’ Christian music?

By the way, the caricatures you demonstrated about the Mass coincide as well with the scenarios on your KJV Bible show.

We believe in the light of Christ, His light sufficient to enlighten us…

Most people have enough sense not to bother with Joseph Smith’s ‘enlightening’ spectacles…never saw symbolic use of spectacles for 4,000 years of Salvation History in the Old Testament either.

More and more Mormons are leaving the American based religion because its source is here, as well as its history and practices…People overseas are not aware, Mormon children are being taught differently than before.

I believe within Mormonism, there are those who do turn to Christ and experience Him as we do.

 

[KathleenGee]

Naf…

Look at the new thread on Exaltation and Theosis…posts 24 through 27…sounds like those boys were being taught they were going to be gods…and yes, the women would not have it so good, their spirit kids not even talking to them once they were in the celestials…

There’s perspective of who they were under…assuming presidents…Kimball mentioned…

Mormon Patriachal blessing is unique unto itself…it would stand better on its own if it would stop referring Judaism and Christianity so much…understand?

 

[truthsave]

Faith in Jesus Christ
Works according to His laws by which we demonstrate our faith and show our true heart
Grace of Jesus Christ.

All are absolutely vital to our eternal salvation.

Yes the words are the same but **I guess you are talking about Jesus as revealed by Joseph Smith. His laws…which laws, mormons? since I don’t know Jesus left any laws a part the one to love each other as He loved us, but even this was not a law since you cannot command to someone to love somebody **so you must very well study the original text to fully understand His statement and ths is not the right post to do it.

 

[mwok]

Eggs are released as part of the natural process regardless, and sometimes they are not. This only references its effectiveness; and it is always recommended not to rely on one form of contraception only in any case.

 

[Naf623]

He said it was true. Maybe you could explain, step by step, how the Mormon Church could lose ‘priesthood authority’ and still be a functioning organization.

Presumably the same way the Catholic church has.

Also, the Mass incorporates many Jewish aspects. Mormons talk a lot about the OT, but don’t seem to understand the nature and significance of the sacrificial lamb.

The sacrificial lambs offered from the time of Adam were ‘in similitude’ of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice. They were a token to direct people’s minds to the future when Christ would come and suffer Himself for sin.

Members of this church have an aversion to the Cross, since they believe that Jesus did not fulfill his divine mission, and wasn’t supposed to die on the Cross.

Well we definitely believe Jesus Christ fulfilled His divine mission, and that His death was absolutely necessary (although the cross was not a requirement). But His suffering on the cross was not the central aspect of His mission; He came to suffer for our sins (in Gethsemane where He bled from every pore), and then to give up His life (with reference to John 10:17-18, nothing but His own will cause Him to exit this mortal existence, and no other power was involved in His resurrection but His own divine authority.)so that He could take it again, and release each and every one of us from the power of death.

The rite of catechumen was structured as Church form; it isn’t denying baptisms were not taking place any other time either. As stated earlier, the first three hundred years, the Church at various times faced annihilation…the worst happening immediately prior to Constantine where many bishops were killed, many churches destroyed.

The biblical record is clear that people were baptised immediately upon the profession of faith, and showing fruits of repentance.

Entire households were baptized in Acts, including those of children and infants. We do the same.

There is no record to suggest that infants were included, no idea if any of these families even included infants, so you’re still going to have to provide some teachings from either Jesus or an Apostle to support your claims.

And there is a big gap in your thinking not facing either the great reality of what contraception has done to populations…in spite of what we are hearing today…of its facilitation of sexual promiscuity and adultery.

Guns don’t kill people…
People found plenty of ways to be sexually promiscuous, to fornicate etc. etc. etc. before any form of artificial contraception was available.

And in regards to the smoke going up in your show, where are your Mormon martyrs???

I fail to see your point? I could cite Joseph Smith as one…
But why do we need any?

I believe within Mormonism, there are those who do turn to Christ and experience Him as we do.

I don’t.

 

[Denise1957]

The sacrificial lambs offered from the time of Adam were ‘in similitude’ of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice. They were a token to direct people’s minds to the future when Christ would come and suffer Himself for sin.

Wrong. The lambs that were sacrificed were a requirement from God to make atonement for sin. They were not a token. Our Lord Himself became the sacrificial lamb, a spotless victim, as the lambs used then were without blemish.

Our Lord did not have to suffer and die on the Cross, but He freely chose to do so. He could have just pricked his finger - that blood in itself would have been enough to atone for sin. It is the blood of the lamb, the perfect, spotless victim, which will atone for sin.

 

[SteveVH]

I don’t understand why they would mock the Mass, since it is mainly a re-enactment of the Sacrifice of Calvary. The Sacrifice of Calvary is central to Christian belief. Also, the Mass incorporates many Jewish aspects. Mormons talk a lot about the OT, but don’t seem to understand the nature and significance of the sacrificial lamb.

As I had stated, my hope is that it is due to ignorance. The fact is that they reject everything about the Mass and have no understanding of what is happening. So the meaning behind sitting to listen to the Old Testament reading and the epistles and then standing when listening to the Gospel, the words of our Lord, himself, and then kneeling when our Lord is present in the Eucharist, completely escapes them. They do not realize that to “remember” the sacrifice of Christ takes on an entirely different meaning than the modern understanding of the word. We do not just “remember”, rather Christ’s eternal sacrifice is truly made present to us. We are, in a sense, transported to the actual event as if we were standing under the cross with his blood dripping on us. So I will cut them some slack in their ignorance, but I will not cut them any slack in mocking the Mass, especially on a Catholic Forum.

 

[Telstar]

Presumably the same way the Catholic church has.

The Catholic Church hasn’t. It’s a myth created by Joseph Smith, just like everything else in Mormonism.

The sacrificial lambs offered from the time of Adam were ‘in similitude’ of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice. They were a token to direct people’s minds to the future when Christ would come and suffer Himself for sin.

Token? Tell all the Jews that gave the ‘cream of their crop’ for all those sacrifices, that they were just a ‘token’. They didn’t call it a ‘sacrifice’ without it being a real hardship to their families.

Well we definitely believe Jesus Christ fulfilled His divine mission, and that His death was absolutely necessary (although the cross was not a requirement). But His suffering on the cross was not the central aspect of His mission; He came to suffer for our sins (in Gethsemane where He bled from every pore), and then to give up His life (with reference to John 10:17-18, nothing but His own will cause Him to exit this mortal existence, and no other power was involved in His resurrection but His own divine authority.)so that He could take it again, and release each and every one of us from the power of death.

(emphasis added)
The Agony in the Garden was only the beginning of all that Jesus suffered for our sins during His Passion. It was just the start of the sacrificial act that He came to earth to fulfill. It continued throughout that entire night and the whole next day, until its culmination at His death on the Cross, when He said His final words, “It is finished.”. To quote a famous American, “It ain’t over 'til it’s over.”

Also, He did not come to save “each and every one of us”, but only those that faithfully follow His teachings.[Hebrews 9:28][28] “So also Christ was offered once to exhaust the sins of many; the second time he shall appear without sin to them that expect him unto salvation.”

The biblical record is clear that people were baptised immediately upon the profession of faith, and showing fruits of repentance.

There is no record to suggest that infants were included, no idea if any of these families even included infants, so you’re still going to have to provide some teachings from either Jesus or an Apostle to support your claims.

I find it absolutely laughable that Mormons will nitpick over whether “sprinkle or dunk” is valid, or whether babies should be Baptized, etc., etc., and claim that these are all sure signs that the Catholic Church was “apostatized”, but with their belief in ‘continuing revelation’, they would allow one of their own church leaders to suddenly have a ‘revelation’ that Baptism was no longer necessary, at all, and they’d have no problem buying it, whatsoever. http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y39/Telstars/Smilies/roll.gif

The Catholic Church can never throw out any established doctrine, just because it’s no longer ‘convenient’ for Catholics to believe (i.e. LDS doctrines on polygamy, blacks in the priesthood). But, the Catholic Church has full authority, given to it by Jesus Christ, to make changes in the practices related to them, so long as the basic tenets remain, intact.

Guns don’t kill people…
People found plenty of ways to be sexually promiscuous, to fornicate etc. etc. etc. before any form of artificial contraception was available.

There were ‘artificial’ methods of contraception used as far back as the Old Testament, even abortions, so you’re argument is moot.

I fail to see your point? I could cite Joseph Smith as one…
But why do we need any?

People that get shot while trying to run away are not ‘martyrs’, but cowards. I think her point is that there are no LDS that have willingly died for the LDS faith. Not to mention that there are no miracle workers of any kind in the LDS church. Jesus performed impossible miracles as proof of His identity and of His Truth. Where are the lists of miracles that JS or any other Mormon has performed, spontaneously, that could not be explained by any other means?

I don’t.

Neither do I. At least we can agree on one thing.

 

[truthsave]

People that get shot while trying to run away are not ‘martyrs’, but cowards…

Sorry but you are wrong Telstar.
JS was not a coward, because before he was shot he shot at least 3 people.
Not really a martyrs way of dying…
While being arrested he said he was like a lamb taken to the bucher… a lamb killing to defend himself? I would say more a wolf…

The nice thing about it is that once there were some mormon missionaries visiting me and I told them the story of the death of JS and that they could have found in history account.

One of them said to me: so what! he had to defend himself.
So why they sing hyms to him as a martyr then?
For mormons who is a martyr then, if they consider JS as one?

 

[CopticChristian]

So were quite a few others, King James I, Popes Innocent V and Urban VII, were all against tobacco use a couple of hundred years before JS. The first anti tobacco movement formed in 1830 and there were many who preached against tobacco use citing it’s use as dirty and unhealthy. Connections to cancer were made by English physicians as early as 1761. JS was simply a product of his time like the SDA’s and Grahamites.

Coffee and tea do not contain “nicoteine” and again many people were against the use of coffee, tea Sylvester Graham of the Graham cracker comes to mind. These days tea has been shown to have many beneficial properties, green tea in particular. And now coffee is racking up impressive possibilities:

Coffee and diabetes
Coffee and heart disease
Coffee and colon cancer
Coffee and Parkinson’s disease
Coffee and breast cancer
Coffee and esophageal cancer

As do most religions, a call for moderation in habit forming things is common in most religions and I can’t think of one that is okay with pornography or fornication./QUOTE]

Tantric Yoga.

 

[KathleenGee]

Naf…

Ever hear of the telephone game? You have a group of people sitting in a row, and a story is whispered in the first ear…then that person passes it down the line, until it comes to the last person. Then the last person stands up and repeats what the first one originally said…it is different. You just have a group of people…6, 10, 12, and it is messed up.

Mormonism began with all sorts of incredulous ideas all based that Joseph Smith had it right, and almost 2000 years of Chrstianity wrong, and so that made Joseph Smith right.

The the Mormon church is changing all the time its beliefs…just like the telephone game. You have seen plenty of references of how your Quorum and presidents change their tunes.

And why is that? Because Mormonism is a man made belief making unsubstantiated claims it is better than anyone else with prior unheard revelations…all based on a compromised character with no witness.

Socrates said there is nothing new under the sun…

What we are witnessing is a man made church that is based on grandiose claims and an adversarial one at that defaming all Christian doctrine and practices as corrupt. Why? Simply because of this great prophet.

A true prophet always leads us to the will of God, to sanctification, not presumption and elevation and denigration of that which is truly holy.

I would not die for a man made church, but for Christ alone. And we do not see testimony of any one shedding their blood for Christ. Bibleprobe.com has an index on the ‘Catecums’, ‘Martyrs’…SS Perpetual and Felicity have a most powerful witness of their martyrdom, nourished by the Eucharist…such strength only through which Christ can give in His sacrament.

So going back, St. Justin the Martyr explained the Mass in 155 AD to the Roman Emperor and its spirit and essential elements in how it was being practiced throughout the ancient world…great uniformity and practice of faith by 100 AD…the communion of belief and practice can only come from God.

As God Himself is the Creator of Peace and Communion.

And to deny the reality of premarital sex, the degradation of women, the destruction of marriage through adultery, the porn culture that is coming out of America, and the subsequent human trafficking, the denial of married couples having children to have a materialistic lifestyle and not give children to society…and for their future care when they are old, the millions of infants aborted in the wombs of their mothers and 165 orphan children throughout the world…all due to contraception.

Yes, we are praying for celibate priests and religious, for laborers who can give their entire lives to all the innocent who are broken…just like the Early Church did to those who were used up by the time they were teenagers in ancient Rome…people coming together to experience the Light of Christ in the catacombs…the places of the dead.

Ours is a living faith based on Christ and no man.

 

[CopticChristian]

And I find it hard to believe you Chistian, given you do not even follow His example in baptism, which is really one of the first steps. Get that wrong, and who knows what path you’re starting on.

God has given two sets of rules for people to live by: His Everlasting Gospel, being the fullness of teaching including everything necessary to achieve salvation; and The Law of Moses, being only those instructions specific to the Children of Israel between their Exodus for Egypt, and the start of Jesus’ mortal ministry. Only one of these was known as ‘the law’, particularly to the Jews.
To start with Paul points out that he is speaking to people who know the law, meaning he is speaking to Jews who are aware of The Law of Moses. He then explains that since Christ’s teachings, the Law of Moses is no longer relevant to us (we are dead to the law) and we must be part of the body of Chist, living by His teachings, which teachings are the Gospel.

And if you were using it to achieve a euphoric effect then it would become addictive and would be contrary to the laws of God.

Speed bumps and cameras are nowhere near as effective to prevent road colissions as not allowing people to drive in the first place; you advocate this also for the protection of life? After all, if people are not driving, they are not colliding with other people and harming/killing them. By the same argument, all safety devices (anti-lock brakes, side impact protection, seat belts, crumple zones) are unnecessary, because none of them are as effective as not driving to start with.
What about safety clothing: after all, if people didn’t do the job to begin with this would be much more effective.
Abstinence is just another way to prevent conception, and therefore by definition is contra-(con)ception.
That’s the most ridiculously extremist opinion on contraception I have ever heard. Using minuscule risks (which are present in all medicines and medical procedures) as a reason to argue against it, just makes you sound paranoid.
Intimacy between man and wife is not solely for the purpose of procreation, it is an expression of love and commitment and a way to become more unified together (therefore shalt a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh).

No properly prescribed and applied drugs, good. Misuse of drugs of any sort, bad.
I would note that we taught against the consumption of alcohol long before the health risks were realised, and against tobacco before smoking the stuff was linked with any detrimental effects whatsoever. We also taught against drinking tea and coffee before it was known they contained addictive nicoteine.
Whilst there are great health benefits to the avoidance of these substances, another major aspect is the addiction itself. We teach against the use of anything taken to the point at which it becomes habit forming/addictive. These things (which go further than just substances and can include thrill seeking, pornography and other fornications, computer games, shopping, gambling etc.) inhibit our ability to think clearly and make reasoned correct decisions, and this makes it difficult for the Holy Spirit to work with us…

You may want to read Romans again and understand that when you say Law, you must distinguish between “ceremonial law” and “moral law” , Paul says clearly that the Gentile without circumcision were circumcised of the heart and who have not the law were a law unto themselves. If you don’t understand this and cannot differentiate then do not try to teach what you do not know.

 

[Naf623]

Our Lord did not have to suffer and die on the Cross, but He freely chose to do so. He could have just pricked his finger - that blood in itself would have been enough to atone for sin. It is the blood of the lamb, the perfect, spotless victim, which will atone for sin.

His death was necessary, but was not necessary with respect to atoning for our sins.

Wrong. The lambs that were sacrificed were a requirement from God to make atonement for sin. They were not a token. Our Lord Himself became the sacrificial lamb, a spotless victim, as the lambs used then were without blemish.

God required it, in the same way as He requires obedience, repentance and for us to forgive others if we are to have our sins forgiven. But the sacrificing of the lamb did not of itself make any atonement; only Jesus’ sacrifice did that.p

The Catholic Church hasn’t.

According only to its own records…

Token? Tell all the Jews that gave the ‘cream of their crop’ for all those sacrifices, that they were just a ‘token’. They didn’t call it a ‘sacrifice’ without it being a real hardship to their families.

Oh, it was definitely a sacrifice, showing to God how important following His words was to them, and how important being cleansed from sin was too. It was essential that they do it, because God required it, but we no longer have to do it since the sacrament (/eucharist) was instituted and we now look back in remembrance of His sacrifice. If it were the sacrificingmofmthe lamb itself that was important, then the practise would have to continue to this day; but it doesn’t.

The Agony in the Garden was only the beginning of all that Jesus suffered for our sins during His Passion. It was just the start of the sacrificial act that He came to earth to fulfill. It continued throughout that entire night and the whole next day, until its culmination at His death on the Cross, when He said His final words, “It is finished.”

After the suffering of Gethsemane, none of the subsequent suffering was necessary for the completion of His mortal mission, all that remained was to die, which He could accomplish at any time He chose.mhowever, the point of His gospel is that we believe and follow Him because we want to, not because we are faced with absolute proof. Had He used His divine power to avert the awful suffering that was to come, He would have been providing that proof to those who were too stubbornly blind to see it when He appeared only to be a lowly mortal man.

Also, He did not come to save “each and every one of us”, but only those that faithfully follow His teachings.

He came to suffer for all sins, and all can be saved. The only reason that not all will be is through their own actions.

I find it absolutely laughable that Mormons will nitpick over whether “sprinkle or dunk” is valid, or whether babies should be Baptized, etc., etc., and claim that these are all sure signs that the Catholic Church was “apostatized”, but with their belief in ‘continuing revelation’, they would allow one of their own church leaders to suddenly have a ‘revelation’ that Baptism was no longer necessary, at all, and they’d have no problem buying it, whatsoever.

Every individual has the right and opportunity to approach God themselves to receive confirmation of any teaching, doctrine, practise or prophecy. This is the beauty of Christ’s true church, that nobody needs to rely on the strength of others, but can be strengthened themselves by testimony of the truth.

The Catholic Church can never throw out any established doctrine, just because it’s no longer ‘convenient’ for Catholics to believe (i.e. LDS doctrines on polygamy, blacks in the priesthood). But, the Catholic Church has full authority, given to it by Jesus Christ, to make changes in the practices related to them, so long as the basic tenets remain, intact.

Where did Christ give you authority to do away with the symbolic aspects of Baptism?
The Doctrine on polygamy has never changed, but we believe in being subject to the laws of the land. The exclusion of African Americans from the priesthood was, just like the Mosaic Law, always taught as temporary until such time as God saw fit to lift it.

There were ‘artificial’ methods of contraception used as far back as the Old Testament, even abortions, so you’re argument is moot.

They did not always exist, though, but God’s prophets have always had to teach people against immorality.
The point being that you (and I know it wasnt you personally who said this, but unless you want to claim this is not Catholic teaching then its still relevant) claim that artificial contraceptives are wrong due (in part at least) to the way that people employ them; by the same logic cars, computers, baseball bats, hands (/fists), piano wire etc.etc.etc. are all wrong also…

Neither do I. At least we can agree on one thing.

Oh, I’m sure there are plenty of other things, probably only a handful relating to Christianity though haha.

 

[Naf623]

Coffee and tea do not contain “nicoteine”

clearly I meant caffeine