How do the Mormons do it?

[Naf623]

And to deny the reality of premarital sex, the degradation of women, the destruction of marriage through adultery, the porn culture that is coming out of America, and the subsequent human trafficking, the denial of married couples having children to have a materialistic lifestyle and not give children to society…and for their future care when they are old, the millions of infants aborted in the wombs of their mothers and 165 orphan children throughout the world…all due to contraception.

Are you kidding? All due to contraception, it has nothing to do with people’s careless attitude towards sex and relationships, all just because there’s a condom handy?

 

[zaffiroborant]

clearly I meant caffeine

Well it would have been clear if you used the word caffeine.

We also taught against drinking tea and coffee before it was known they contained addictive nicoteine.

But you clearly do not teach against using caffeine since a myriad of caffeinated beverages are allowed under the WoW.

 

[CopticChristian]

His death was necessary, but was not necessary with respect to atoning for our sins.

God required it, in the same way as He requires obedience, repentance and for us to forgive others if we are to have our sins forgiven. But the sacrificing of the lamb did not of itself make any atonement; only Jesus’ sacrifice did that.p

According only to its own records…

Oh, it was definitely a sacrifice, showing to God how important following His words was to them, and how important being cleansed from sin was too. It was essential that they do it, because God required it, but we no longer have to do it since the sacrament (/eucharist) was instituted and we now look back in remembrance of His sacrifice. If it were the sacrificingmofmthe lamb itself that was important, then the practise would have to continue to this day; but it doesn’t.

**
After the suffering of Gethsemane, none of the subsequent suffering was necessary for the completion of His mortal mission, all that remained was to die, which He could accomplish at any time He chose.mhowever, **the point of His gospel is that we believe and follow Him because we want to, not because we are faced with absolute proof. Had He used His divine power to avert the awful suffering that was to come, He would have been providing that proof to those who were too stubbornly blind to see it when He appeared only to be a lowly mortal man.

He came to suffer for all sins, and all can be saved. The only reason that not all will be is through their own actions.

Every individual has the right and opportunity to approach God themselves to receive confirmation of any teaching, doctrine, practise or prophecy. This is the beauty of Christ’s true church, that nobody needs to rely on the strength of others, but can be strengthened themselves by testimony of the truth.

Where did Christ give you authority to do away with the symbolic aspects of Baptism?
The Doctrine on polygamy has never changed, but we believe in being subject to the laws of the land. The exclusion of African Americans from the priesthood was, just like the Mosaic Law, always taught as temporary until such time as God saw fit to lift it.

They did not always exist, though, but God’s prophets have always had to teach people against immorality.
The point being that you (and I know it wasnt you personally who said this, but unless you want to claim this is not Catholic teaching then its still relevant) claim that artificial contraceptives are wrong due (in part at least) to the way that people employ them; by the same logic cars, computers, baseball bats, hands (/fists), piano wire etc.etc.etc. are all wrong also…

Oh, I’m sure there are plenty of other things, probably only a handful relating to Christianity though haha.

So, you believe and have been taught that Jesus sweat blood and that was the atonement?

 

[KathleenGee]

Naf…are you kidding???

There is a reason the Church has condemn artificial contraception and its works are evident everywhere…now some states here are working to teach vaginal, oral, and anal sex to first graders…along with the condom.

And back to Mormonism and no martyrs…there is no need to have martyrs…because you are living to become a god some day so there is no Christ to die for. You are living for your own exaltation.

 

[blueadept]

You are living for your own exaltation.

LDS members fall in line with Protestants in regards to believing their salvation is assured while Catholics worry about losing we have in regards to our salvation.

Faithful LDS members tend to worry about being exulted though. A concept that should be totally foreign for the Catholic mind to try to understand IMO.

 

[Miriam1947]

Oh, it was definitely a sacrifice, showing to God how important following His words was to them, and how important being cleansed from sin was too. It was essential that they do it, because God required it, but we no longer have to do it since the sacrament (/eucharist) was instituted and we now look back in remembrance of His sacrifice. If it were the sacrificingmofmthe lamb itself that was important, then the practise would have to continue to this day; but it doesn’t.

You used the word Eucharist. Do you realize what it means? Just a clue, it ain’t bread and water.

After the suffering of Gethsemane, none of the subsequent suffering was necessary for the completion of His mortal mission, all that remained was to die, which He could accomplish at any time He chose.mhowever, the point of His gospel is that we believe and follow Him because we want to, not because we are faced with absolute proof. Had He used His divine power to avert the awful suffering that was to come, He would have been providing that proof to those who were too stubbornly blind to see it when He appeared only to be a lowly mortal man.

So Jesus didn’t need to die on the cross? Then why would Jesus, who is God, die on the cross? Why would Jesus, who is God, do something unnecessary?

Every individual has the right and opportunity to approach God themselves to receive confirmation of any teaching, doctrine, practise or prophecy. This is the beauty of Christ’s true church, that nobody needs to rely on the strength of others, but can be strengthened themselves by testimony of the truth.

Well then you should join Christ’s true church. Welcome home to the Catholic Church!!

They did not always exist, though, but God’s prophets have always had to teach people against immorality.
The point being that you (and I know it wasnt you personally who said this, but unless you want to claim this is not Catholic teaching then its still relevant) claim that artificial contraceptives are wrong due (in part at least) to the way that people employ them; by the same logic cars, computers, baseball bats, hands (/fists), piano wire etc.etc.etc. are all wrong also…

This is so illogical and you know it.

 

[zaffiroborant]

His death was necessary, but was not necessary with respect to atoning for our sins.

After the suffering of Gethsemane, none of the subsequent suffering was necessary for the completion of His mortal mission, all that remained was to die, which He could accomplish at any time He chose.

Well you can go right ahead and believe that our Lord’s actions were superfluous I can not be so dismissive of any part of His earthly mission.

 

[KathleenGee]

A lady shared this pm on ‘views on Mormonism’ of her Mormon grandparents. It totally coincided with all that I was reading after visiting the LDS store…very sad…

 

[Miriam1947]

A lady shared this pm on ‘views on Mormonism’ of her Mormon grandparents. It totally coincided with all that I was reading after visiting the LDS store…very sad…

Kathleen what are you talking about? I do not have a clue.

Are you talking about this?

Marie,

Quote:
The LDS church is especially horrific for women. Their husbands - not Christ - call them forth on Resurrection Day. Women are made to go through their husbands for any kind of contact with God. I love and respect my husband, but how terrible would it be to believe that God didn’t really want to have anything to do with me? That he’d only listen to my prayers if they were repeated by my husband’s lips?

I had not ever really thought about the ramifications for women in Mormonism. Wow. Just wow!

That is truly awful. How can anyone think that God does not love the women? He created woman. Jesus was incarnated because of a woman.

 

[KathleenGee]

Miriam…

You saw the post…and it was answered by Parker…but the problem with polygamy, and with those leaving Mormonism, this idea that the wife is subservient to the husband either allowing her or denying her entry into the next life has been the beliefs and practices of too many Mormons.

There is no discussion allowed in the Mormon religion regarding the Mother of Christ, Mary. If she could be made known to Mormon women, she would give them a new insight and proximity to Christ that would atleast provide them a greater security and autonomy in their own path to heaven…and I do not intend this either to violate the sacred union of marriage either. I make that reference in terms only to abusive relationships where the woman is under inordinate control by her husband. And this is a problem irregardless of race, creed or culture.

The East coast Mormons, assuming Governor Romney is one, are much more moderate and didn’t take on the extreme thinking of those who went West with J.Smith and Bringham Young.

 

[ParkerD]

Miriam…

You saw the post…and it was answered by Parker…but the problem with polygamy, and with those leaving Mormonism, this idea that the wife is subservient to the husband either allowing her or denying her entry into the next life has been the beliefs and practices of too many Mormons.

…

Kathleen,

I realize you are being compassionate in your concern about Latter-day Saint women, but you might as well be aware that “this idea that the wife is subservient to the husband…” is completely erroneous, although there may be some men who still have that sort of thinking based on how their father treated their mother. That sort of thinking comes more from the epistles of Paul and from the Old Testament representation of women being “subservient” to their husband, and the carrying on of that kind of attitude through the cultural influence of generations past, than from anything that was taught in early Latter-day Saint history or is taught today.

My dear wife would have just as much right to “deny” me “entry into heaven” as I would to “deny” her such entrance (which I actually wouldn’t have at all–it is a symbolic priesthood ordinance that gives the idea of jointly being resurrected and jointly entering into heaven), since what counts is what our relationship is and what is really going on in our hearts, and all of that gets completely revealed before the judgment day. When Eve was given to Adam as an “help meet for him”, it was not only a good thing–it was an essential thing for him progressing in the way that God desired that they progress together. She was his equal, and women today are just as much the equal and have just as direct access to God and to the Savior as do men. There is no difference.

So it might help your compassion to realize that married Latter-day Saint women will be able to testify on judgment day how they were treated, whether they were upheld as an “help meet” and an equal partner by their husband, and if any repenting hasn’t been done before that judgment day then it may be everlastingly too late as far as “exaltation” for the man in a situation if he didn’t treat his wife as an equal partner and love her as his “help meet for him” given to him by God, and teach sons to treat their wife in the same way.

 

[KathleenGee]

I know the Mormon belief and practice is in the process of being revamped and standardized, and disowning its prior beliefs and practices. There are too many testimonies that coincide with the practice of polygamy, irregardless of where it is allowed.

It goes back to the nature of man and original sin…the desire to dominate, to be a god, to label classes of people and beliefs as corrupt—the Catholic Church, the rest of Christianity, black people, the shunning…the caricaturizing of my church, the misinformation about it and our beliefs, to now claiming the Early Church Fathers as supporting Smith’s teachings on becoming gods…

It is like the Catholic Church is your apple, an entitlement to baptize people against their will and knowledge to claim new members for your won, through dead people–, compelling members to fund temples to the recent trend of using our Catechism 460, St. Ireneaus, St. Athanasius thinking they were supporting Smith. The truth is they were teaching the opposite!..and all the texts leading up to 460 were ignored whose footnote is from a certain treatise by St. Thomas Aquinas…on the Eucharist!!

So I have a very hard time believing what Mormons say they are, and their intentions.
I see this continual ongoing, competitive adversarial relationship underneath all the nice talk…because I don’t just listen to what people say, I watch what they do.

 

[truthsave]

As farm as concern mormon poligamy I would like to see what they would do if poligamy was legal. I have a feeling their prophet would have then a new revelation about it.
How they would justify this change? Different times different revelation. That’s it! So trut is something that changes according to times.
I say this because from my side I know few mormons and they just say (not officially) that this would be the case. And they would accept it even if with difficulty. It means they are alredy prepared for it, at least in their mind there is a "soft"spot for it.

 

[RebeccaJ]

As farm as concern mormon poligamy I would like to see what they would do if poligamy was legal. I have a feeling their prophet would have then a new revelation about it.
How they would justify this change? Different times different revelation. That’s it! So trut is something that changes according to times.
I say this because from my side I know few mormons and they just say (not officially) that this would be the case. And they would accept it even if with difficulty. It means they are alredy prepared for it, at least in their mind there is a "soft"spot for it.

My family has Mormon polygamist roots. Growing up, my mother was very proud of this fact, and told me that she was always prepared for the day it would be practiced again.

This is because that is what Mormon leaders taught when polygamy was ended, that there would be a day where it would be “instituted again”. It remains a doctrine of Mormonism, a doctrine that is not practiced. They still teach that marriages in the next life will be polygamous.

When I speak to Mormons today, it’s mixed, some say they would practice polygamy, others say they would leave Mormonism. The latter, being a risk the LDS church may not want to make, I can’t see that it would be likely to be practiced again.

The more disturbing experience and question, I think, are men and women who turned over their young daughters to Joseph Smith. If you ask Mormons today if they would turn over their 14 year old daughter to Joseph Smith, some of them actually say yes, they would.

Gives me the creeps. But I think it shows very clearly how Mormons think.

 

[KathleenGee]

And Rebecca, you live at Mormonism Ground Zero.

Do you know if your grandparents had the same practices that Marie, a few posts back stated…it is not sure if she was observing or not.

 

[RebeccaJ]

And Rebecca, you live at Mormonism Ground Zero.

Do you know if your grandparents had the same practices that Marie, a few posts back stated…it is not sure if she was observing or not.

It is what I was taught.

What ParkerD is failing to disclose is a part of their temple endowment rite. Which, he won’t do of course.

Part of this rite is where a person is given a new name, by which they will be called at resurrection. The husband is told his wife’s name, and he will call her. No one knows the name given to the husband, God calls the man, the husband calls the wife. If he doesn’t call her, it’s like a Native American cultural idea, where the man throws some sticks up in the air and the divorce is done. If the man doesn’t call his wife, it means he doesn’t want her, so God is second in place to call the wife at resurrection in that case.

So when ParkerD says they call each other up, he is saying something that can’t be done, because being called into the Mormon heavens requires a secret name that the wife doesn’t know. They call this name a token. Which, I found interesting that in one of these Mormon posts somewhere, a Mormon was calling Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the cross a “token”…very temple-speak.

One of the common thing you see among ex-Mormons, is sharing with each other their “secret” name, something that no believing Mormon would ever do.

to add: what this means for the woman who isn’t called by her husband is, she is SOL, no exaltation for her until some other guy will accept her as a wife…maybe plural wife. She can sit there and call for her husband all she wants, but he won’t hear, because she doesn’t have the secret name.



But what ParkerD says, yes, the wife enables the husband’s godhood and she enables his. Mormonism has a strong dualism aspect. But, the husband always has the upper hand.

 

[RebeccaJ]

That last sentence…he enables hers.

In short, spouses are god-enablers…if you ain’t got one you ain’t gonna be one. And if you’re a woman you better keep your husband happy, or he may just decide to have his godhood enabled by someone else.

 

[Stephen168]

There was a Mormon who is now an ex-Mormon after he thought about what you just said in relation to the “Great Apostasy.”

1. According to Mormonism there is no way that “priesthood authority” could be lost in the Mormon Church.
2. Mormonism claims to be the restored church of Christ
3. If “priesthood authority” can not be lost in the current church of Christ, then it could not be lost in the original Church started by Christ Christ 2000 year ago.
4. Therefore; there is no need for a restoration.
   Joseph Smith made it all up.

Point 1. is untrue

He said it was true. Maybe you could explain, step by step, how the Mormon Church could lose ‘priesthood authority’ and still be a functioning organization.

Presumably the same way the Catholic church has.

So you are wrong. According to the Mormon Church there is no way that “priesthood authority” could be lost in the Mormon Church. It does require someone to actually think and reason to see how the “Great Apostasy” could never happen. When a Mormon does that, they will not be Mormon for long.

The way that “Mormons do it,” they don’t (reason).

 

[Naf623]

LDS members fall in line with Protestants in regards to believing their salvation is assured while Catholics worry about losing we have in regards to our salvation.

No.
Our salvation is far from assured, faith alone can save no one, we must have spent our lives doing everything we can to follow God’s laws to the best of our ability. But even everything in our power to accomplish is not enough to get us into heaven, as we will still have sinned, and so we must also rely on the Grace of Jesus Christ to make up the difference.

So Jesus didn’t need to die on the cross? Then why would Jesus, who is God, die on the cross? Why would Jesus, who is God, do something unnecessary?

Well you can go right ahead and believe that our Lord’s actions were superfluous I can not be so dismissive of any part of His earthly mission.

The discussion was regarding Jesus Christ’s mortal mission to redeem mankind and free us from the effects of sin. With regards to this mission, His death was necessary, but the place, manner and time were not.
I have absolute confidence that He has a very good purpose in mind to choosing to allow His death in such manner, but the cross is not an important part of His sacrifice for our sins.

This is so illogical and you know it.

Yes, the idea of banning something because of the way it can be employed, should someone choose to, is entirely illogical; and that is my point.

You saw the post…and it was answered by Parker…but the problem with polygamy, and with those leaving Mormonism, this idea that the wife is subservient to the husband either allowing her or denying her entry into the next life has been the beliefs and practices of too many Mormons.

That’s like someone condemning Catholicism because of professed members who use contraception, sleep with lots of different people or do things contrary to any of the church’s tenets.

There is no discussion allowed in the Mormon religion regarding the Mother of Christ

Wrong.

I know the Mormon belief and practice is in the process of being revamped and standardized, and disowning its prior beliefs and practices.

Wrong

baptize people against their will and knowledge

Wrong

to claim new members for your won, through dead people

Wrong

They still teach that marriages in the next life will be polygamous.

Wrong

When I speak to Mormons today, it’s mixed, some say they would practice polygamy, others say they would leave Mormonism. The latter, being a risk the LDS church may not want to make, I can’t see that it would be likely to be practiced again.

People left the church when African Americans were allowed the priesthood, people left when the Word of Wisdom was introduced (and some still leave because of it), I am certain the people left when the prophet suggested that women should have only one pair of discrete earrings and no other piercings, people splintered when polygamy was stopped, many more departed when Brigham Young was called as Joseph Smith’s successor instead of JS’s son.
We don’t beat around the bush when doing as God asks. If people don’t like it, they have their freedom to leave; or they can find faith enough to ask Him for themselves.

to add: what this means for the woman who isn’t called by her husband is, she is SOL, no exaltation for her until some other guy will accept her as a wife…maybe plural wife. She can sit there and call for her husband all she wants, but he won’t hear, because she doesn’t have the secret name.

Wrong

But what ParkerD says, yes, the wife enables the husband’s godhood and she enables his. Mormonism has a strong dualism aspect. But, the husband always has the upper hand.

Wrong

In short, spouses are god-enablers…if you ain’t got one you ain’t gonna be one. And if you’re a woman you better keep your husband happy, or he may just decide to have his godhood enabled by someone else.

Wrong

Perhaps you shouldn’t rely on rumour and information from people (including ex-members) who don’t know what they are talking about and don’t understand.

Marriages that were polygamous in this life (correctly recognised by God, as with OT prophets for example) will continue to be so in eternity, but I’m not aware that we will comtinue to make further marriages.

As to the temple sealing covenants: it is entirely three ways, between the two spouses, and also between them and God. Even should the connection between the two be broken by disobedience or divorce, the sealing covenant can still remain in effect for the worthy spouse and still gives them claim on salvation if they keep their covenants with God.

The temple sealing is necessary to achieve the highest degree of exalted glory, but God’s eternal perfect justice cannot deny something to someone on the basis of something beyond their control. If someone has dilligently sought to gain this sealing, but has not has the opportunity to do so, He has a plan prepared that they will not be at a disadvantage eternally. Just the same way that baptism for the dead enables all those who have died without the opportunity to come to Christ to still enter heaven.

 

[Naf623]

So you are wrong. According to the Mormon Church there is no way that “priesthood authority” could be lost in the Mormon Church.

We do not teach or believe this. We do not believe it ever will happen, but we do believe that widespread departing from true teaching could cause it, should it happen. Just the same as it did in the early few centuries after Christ and the Apostles’ death.