How Do Those Who Call Themselves Catholic Support Gay Marriage?

[GEddie]

Wait…so does that mean anyone can get a divorce without sinning? Do you have to have your Priest’s approval to submit the legal divorce? That just seems counterintuitive (the Church teaches that there’s no such thing as a divorce, but you’re expected to get a legal divorce before you find out if your marriage was real or not?

If there is no legal divorce, the issue is first and foremost to save the existing marriage.

Once there has been a legal divorce, although couples have reconciled, saving the marriage is no longer a realistic option.

ICXC NIKA

 

[GEddie]

. I do not see this as a liberal ve conservative issue. If this is not what you meant by liberalization then please forgive me.

It is not.

I meant “liberal” in the classical sense of increasing “freedom” to divorce.

It’s OK.

ICXC NIKA

 

[kanrok]

Exactly. This thread state “How can someone call themself Catholic and support gay marriage.”

I know a couple that are both Catholic(crable for both) and were married by way of civil union in Hawaii. Their marriage has never been blessed by the Church, they wish to not have children and lived together for many years before actually getting united in the civil court. Church teachings say they are not “married” and are still living in sin, yet they claim to still be Catholic. What gives?

Why no debate and battle over this? They are living in “sin” just as the gay couple are but there is no priest on Good Moring America demanding this to stop.

I know Catholics who murdered their spouses.

But it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Neither does your example.

Care to chime in on how a person who is Catholic could support gay marriage, or do you feel unqualified to answer, since your not Catholic?

 

[kanrok]

Comparatively, both divorce and homosexuality are against the Church and Scripture.

But there was never the hue and cry over the liberalization of divorce in the American States as there is now over gay marriage. The question was why.

A valid question, IMNAAHO.

ICXC NIKA

Are there any laws currently being considered anywhere in the US about liberalizing divorce laws?

If so, this would potentially be a valid issue in this thread.

But, as I stated elsewhere, the last state in the union to liberalize divorce laws was New York - in 2010, and there certainly was a hue and cry over that law there by vocal Catholics.

The reason why we see a “hue and cry” over gay marriage today is because it is a current issue.

 

[kanrok]

You know what I haven’t seen in this thread yet?

An answer to my initial question by a Catholic supporting gay marriage.

I’ve seen a lot of skirting around the edges, and the same old tripe you typically see when this issue is brought up - “Jesus never said anything about homosexuality being sinful!”

But no one - no one who calls themselves Catholic and supports gay marriage has provided a rationale.

Why is that?

 

[aidanbradypop]

I know Catholics who murdered their spouses.

But it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Neither does your example.

Care to chime in on how a person who is Catholic could support gay marriage, or do you feel unqualified to answer, since your not Catholic?

Hi Kanrok. I trust you are having a wonderul day!

Why do you feel the need to single homosexuality out?

That example I gave about my friends (the Catholic couple that were united in a civil union and have yet to be blessed by the Church) is no different than a Catholic same sex relationship. Why do you fill the need to harp on one and not the other? That couple is living in a state of sin. They wish not to have children nor have their marriage blessed by the Church. They are somehow better than two men or women that love one another and wish the share a lives together?

My chime: The Quinnipiac University poll found 54 percent of Catholics support same-sex marriage while just 38 percent are opposed, compared to a 47-43 percent margin among all American voters.

Both margins represent a reversal from the 36-55 percent opposition among all voters the group found as recently as July 2008.

As a former Roman Catholic and currently Anglican Catholic, I guess I am not “qualified” to answer this question and will allow the 54% to speak on my behalf.

In Christ
Dusitn

 

[kanrok]

I’m having a great day.

As usual.

You might not have read the entire thread, and that’s okay.

I “single out” homosexuality because - in case you haven’t been reading the papers - it’s all over the news.

In my home state of Illinois Catholic legislators recently helped to pass gay marriage there.

The same Catholic legislators voted against it before the summer break.

It got me wondering, how is it that those who proclaim that they are Catholics support gay marriage?

Capisce?

 

[kanrok]

BTW, none of the 54% feel the need to speak out.

I wonder why?

 

[aidanbradypop]

I’m having a great day.

As usual.

You might not have read the entire thread, and that’s okay.

I “single out” homosexuality because - in case you haven’t been reading the papers - it’s all over the news.

In my home state of Illinois Catholic legislators recently helped to pass gay marriage there.

The same Catholic legislators voted against it before the summer break.

It got me wondering, how is it that those who proclaim that they are Catholics support gay marriage?

Capisce?

Si, ho capito. Vi ringrazio per l’espansione del se

No clue kanrok. Wish I had an answer for you. Those 54% have spoken out by way of voting…etc

Sadly it has become a major political issue rather than basic civil rights. The Right turned against it so naturally the Left will support it lol. With only a few Conservative Catholic lawmakers, the more liberal Catholics become heard. Maybe that is why.

As to how they say they are Catholic and support such…no clue bud. I guess you would have to get them to tell you.

BTW, none of the 54% feel the need to speak out.

I wonder why?

see above

 

[Origen52]

*QUOTE=Nacho45;11458220]

I could ask the same thing for those advocating against what was once the secular state moral rules to get what they want. What laws are NOT built on religious moral value?*

First, whose moral values? There are Christian denominations which accept homosexual unions. You may not agree with them, but you can’t demand that civil laws only reflect your religious belief.

Secondly, civil laws are not based on religious moral values, they are based on the constitution. If you disagree with laws which permit same sex civil marriages, you must challenge them by citing the constitution, not your individual beliefs.

If your objective is only to prove that same sex unions contradict church doctrine, you’re right. If you expect catholic politicians to oppose same sex unions based on religion, rather than the constitution you’re wrong. Politicians must be guided by the constitution.

 

[aidanbradypop]

First, whose moral values? There are Christian denominations which accept homosexual unions. You may not agree with them, but you can’t demand that civil laws only reflect your religious belief.

Secondly, civil laws are not based on religious moral values, they are based on the constitution. If you disagree with laws which permit same sex civil marriages, you must challenge them by citing the constitution, not your individual beliefs.

If your objective is only to prove that same sex unions contradict church doctrine, you’re right. If you expect catholic politicians to oppose same sex unions based on religion, rather than the constitution you’re wrong. Politicians must be guided by the constitution.

Thank you for this post!

 

[inocente]

BTW, none of the 54% feel the need to speak out.

I wonder why?

Your OP. Questions like “isn’t support of gay marriage fomenting scandal” leave them no reason to participate, especially if they’re in a majority anyway.

PS: I’m not Catholic but support gay equality along with two thirds of Catholics in my country who supported equal marriage when it was made law here.

 

[kanrok]

Si, ho capito. Vi ringrazio per l’espansione del se

No clue kanrok. Wish I had an answer for you. Those 54% have spoken out by way of voting…etc

Sadly it has become a major political issue rather than basic civil rights. The Right turned against it so naturally the Left will support it lol. With only a few Conservative Catholic lawmakers, the more liberal Catholics become heard. Maybe that is why.

As to how they say they are Catholic and support such…no clue bud. I guess you would have to get them to tell you.

see above

Grazie!

 

[frobert]

You know what I haven’t seen in this thread yet?

An answer to my initial question by a Catholic supporting gay marriage.

I’ve seen a lot of skirting around the edges, and the same old tripe you typically see when this issue is brought up - “Jesus never said anything about homosexuality being sinful!”

But no one - no one who calls themselves Catholic and supports gay marriage has provided a rationale.

Why is that?

You man have missed my post #175 where, whether or wrongly I answer try to directly address question. This is similar to that post:

When you are born as a Catholic or convert you are a Catholic. If you are excommunicated or renounce your religion you are an ex-Catholic. When you are in the state of sin you are not in good standing as a Catholic But even if you are not a Catholic or an ex-Catholic their is no law against labeling yourself or as parading as a Catholic.

Have any politicians been excommunicated for voting for same-sex marriage. I am not being facetious, I really don’t know.

Supposing a politician who voted for gay marriage has a change of heart and confesses his sin, the priest absolves him. The vote is over and same sex marriage is now legal in your state. Would he/she now be a Catholic in good standing? I believe he would.

 

[kanrok]

You man have missed my post #175 where, whether or wrongly I answer try to directly address question. This is similar to that post:

When you are born as a Catholic or convert you are a Catholic. If you are excommunicated or renounce your religion you are an ex-Catholic. When you are in the state of sin you are not in good standing as a Catholic But even if you are not a Catholic or an ex-Catholic their is no law against labeling yourself or as parading as a Catholic.

Have any politicians been excommunicated for voting for same-sex marriage. I am not being facetious, I really don’t know.

Supposing a politician who voted for gay marriage has a change of heart and confesses his sin, the priest absolves him. The vote is over and same sex marriage is now legal in your state. Would he/she now be a Catholic in good standing? I believe he would.

Thanks for the reply.

As for excommunication, my understanding is that we are excommunicated* latae sententiae* (read: automatically) under certain circumstances. I’m not sure that supporting gay marriage fits into one of the categories or not. I’d leave that to a canon lawyer to hash that out.

I cannot recall any instance of a Catholic legislator being excommunicated publicly for supporting gay marriage - and I cannot, off the top of my head, recall if one were ever excommunicated for supporting abortion.

Even if one were excommunicated, he or she would not be drummed out of Catholicism. They could repent, confess and be back in the good graces of the Church.

I also totally agree with your last comment that a Catholic legislator can confess and be back in good standing even if not excommunicated.

My question though is simple: how does a Catholic justify his or her position supporting gay marriage given the dogma of the Church on this issue?

 

[aidanbradypop]

I have been debating on whether or not to share this story. I have now decide to go ahead and do so.

“How Do Those Who Call Themselves Catholic Support Gay Marriage”

Tricky question but one that really cuts me deep. In high school, one of my best friends was a wonderful guy of character. He would do anything for you! He cared so much for people and loved to laugh and sing. His voice was truly amazing! He was a devout Catholic and attended Mass every chance he could. He loved God so dearly and Church also.

One day after baseball practice we were sitting there and chatting. He said, “Dustin I have something to tell you and I do not want you to hate me for it but I want to share this with you because you are a great friend and I feel as if I am lying to you.”

I told him that I would never hate him and be honest with me.

He stated that he was gay and didn’t know how to tell his parents about it. He had heard his father talking about homosexuals and about how they were an abominations…etc (I will spare the choice words he used). He was terrified that by “coming out of the closet” his family and faith would disown him.

I had no clue what kind of advice to give him so I simply stated that I would love him no matter what and would be with him when he decided to tell his parents about it.

We never got that chance. A month later they found him hanging in his closet. He left no letter or ever told his parents his “secret.” The guilt he felt from Church and family for being what he was born as was too much for one beautiful, caring, and Catholic guy to handle.

 

[frobert]

Dustin I am so sorry for both you and your friend. At least you should be comforted in the knowledge for doing the right thing by reaching out to your friend with love. My guess is that you were among the few people that he was sad to be leaving.

Frank

 

[kanrok]

I have been debating on whether or not to share this story. I have now decide to go ahead and do so.

“How Do Those Who Call Themselves Catholic Support Gay Marriage”

Tricky question but one that really cuts me deep. In high school, one of my best friends was a wonderful guy of character. He would do anything for you! He cared so much for people and loved to laugh and sing. His voice was truly amazing! He was a devout Catholic and attended Mass every chance he could. He loved God so dearly and Church also.

One day after baseball practice we were sitting there and chatting. He said, “Dustin I have something to tell you and I do not want you to hate me for it but I want to share this with you because you are a great friend and I feel as if I am lying to you.”

I told him that I would never hate him and be honest with me.

He stated that he was gay and didn’t know how to tell his parents about it. He had heard his father talking about homosexuals and about how they were an abominations…etc (I will spare the choice words he used). He was terrified that by “coming out of the closet” his family and faith would disown him.

I had no clue what kind of advice to give him so I simply stated that I would love him no matter what and would be with him when he decided to tell his parents about it.

We never got that chance. A month later they found him hanging in his closet. He left no letter or ever told his parents his “secret.” The guilt he felt from Church and family for being what he was born as was too much for one beautiful, caring, and Catholic guy to handle.

Sorry about your loss.

But the problem with anecdotes is that they cannot be tested.

Are you asserting that being faithful to the Church’s teachings causes suicide?

If so, I would take issue with that.

Untreated major depression is the cause.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Sorry about your loss.

But the problem with anecdotes is that they cannot be tested.

Are you asserting that being faithful to the Church’s teachings causes suicide?

If so, I would take issue with that.

Untreated major depression is the cause.

Anecdote: a short account of a particular incident or event, especially of an interesting or amusing nature.

I trust you did not find that story I shared amusing.

kanrok…do you really think I stated the being faithful to the Church is what brought his death? I have read and read that story 5 or 6 times and I am actually sad that you somehow came to that conclusion from that story. Maybe I am wrong.

I do not know what was going through his mind when he decided that life was not worth living. I am sure he was depressed. He was a gay teen living in a society that is not very friendly to you guys like him.

You asked how a person can say the are Catholic and support gay marriage. Obviously what happened to my friend is not the answer. I do not blame Catholic, Baptist, Anglican, Islam(although being gay can get you killed in some places) or any other faith. I believe the blame lands hard on society. You can only push so far before someone starts pushing back and we should not be surprised at how hard some are pushing. Correct?

 

[kanrok]

Anecdotal: “Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis.”

Your words: “The guilt he felt from Church and family for being what he was born as was too much for one beautiful, caring, and Catholic guy to handle.”

Clearly you are concluding that your friend committed suicide because of “the guilt he felt from Church and family for being what he was born”

By “being what he was born” I conclude that you are referring to the fact that he was gay and felt he was not accepted.

Correlation does not equal causation.

You have no idea what caused this young man to kill himself other than guess, speculation and conjecture.