How Do Those Who Call Themselves Catholic Support Gay Marriage?

[frobert]

The door was never closed. But once we enter the door our duty is to learn to understand why the church teaches what it does.not try and change the churches teachings. And most certainly we should never try and convince other Catholics that the church is wrong .

To be honest i dont agree with the chruches teaching on barrier methods of contraception. however i accept them follow them and strive to understand why i am mistaken.

We should love and respect those who are struggling with accepting areas of church teachings. We should not condemn or try and drive them out of the church. but we should NEVER affirm their rejection of the teachings and lovingly engage them with he truth.

We are 99.999 % in agreement. I think the small disagreement we might have is how we react to others who may hold opposing views. I believe the overriding principle is “do no harm” and if my judgement tells me to accept without comment or to share with sympathetic joy is the best way to do no harm then that is what I will do and let God judge my motives.

One only has to look at the high suicide rate of LGBT youth to know that some of the things that we routinely do are harmful even though our intentions are good.

 

[kozlosap]

We are 99.999 % in agreement. I think the small disagreement we might have is how we react to others who may hold opposing views. I believe the overriding principle is “do no harm” and if my judgement tells me to accept without comment or to share with sympathetic joy is the best way to do no harm then that is what I will do and let God judge my motives.

One only has to look at the high suicide rate of LGBT youth to know that some of the things that we routinely do are harmful even though our intentions are good.

:thumbsup:Exactly

 

[Lochias]

We are 99.999 % in agreement. I think the small disagreement we might have is how we react to others who may hold opposing views. I believe the overriding principle is “do no harm” and if my judgement tells me to accept without comment or to share with sympathetic joy is the best way to do no harm then that is what I will do and let God judge my motives.

One only has to look at the high suicide rate of LGBT youth to know that some of the things that we routinely do are harmful even though our intentions are good.

This ignores both the health of the soul, and the responsibility that people have for their own actions. Telling someone that what they do is wrong, when done in love, is not harmful. Actions undertaken by the other party are where the harm is centered, whether to themselves or others.

 

[PRmerger]

We are 99.999 % in agreement. I think the small disagreement we might have is how we react to others who may hold opposing views. I believe the overriding principle is “do no harm” and if my judgement tells me to accept without comment or to share with sympathetic joy is the best way to do no harm then that is what I will do and let God judge my motives.

I suppose, then, the question becomes, “How do we determine when a particular issue is, indeed, harming, us”, right?

 

[frobert]

This ignores both the health of the soul, and the responsibility that people have for their own actions. Telling someone that what they do is wrong, when done in love, is not harmful. Actions undertaken by the other party are where the harm is centered, whether to themselves or others.

I not only I respect your conclusion I don’t disagree with any of it and for you to act in accordance with it is something you need to do. It would be sinful for you to do otherwise.

Where I differ is that my guiding principle is “do no harm.” if my conscience and my heart tells me that to comment or to take or omit a particular action that could be harmful then I, can in clear conscious, believe that I must remain quite and when God judges me He will judge me knowing my heart and my motives.

The other night the exchange we had profound effect on me. During that exchange I realized that I was selfishly wanting others to empathize with my position without considering their position. I thanked you for it then and thank you for it again.

Frank

 

[frobert]

I suppose, then, the question becomes, “How do we determine when a particular issue is, indeed, harming, us”, right?

Let your actions reflect your conscious and your heart, not everyone will agree with you. Even if I don’t agree with your actions I do believe you will have a clear conscious when you meet your maker.

Edit: To be clear, I am not referring to matters of scripture or other matters of the church that we must remain true to.

 

[PRmerger]

Let your actions reflect your conscious and your heart, not everyone will agree with you. Even if I don’t agree with your actions I do believe you will have a clear conscious when you meet your maker.

I have to disagree with you that having a clear conscience is an arbiter of how one is judged.

There can be some very, very evil people who go to God with a clear conscience.

Edit: To be clear, I am not referring to matters of scripture or other matters of the church that we must remain true to.

I know you are attempting to be clear here, but this is very nebulous to me. What, specifically, falls into the categories of “matters of the Church that we must remain true to” and what are matters that are outside of this?

 

[Lochias]

I not only I respect your conclusion I don’t disagree with any of it and for you to act in accordance with it is something you need to do. It would be sinful for you to do otherwise.

Okay.

Where I differ is that my guiding principle is “do no harm.” if my conscience and my heart tells me that to comment or to take or omit a particular action that could be harmful then I, can in clear conscious, believe that I must remain quite and when God judges me He will judge me knowing my heart and my motives.

…possibly. I would say that, perhaps, what you are viewing as “harmful” may in fact be less harmful than saying nothing at all. We’re called to share our light with everyone, and sometimes, people don’t like what they see when it’s brought to light. We don’t press the issue, but I do think we have to take a firm stand on the matter. Our conscience must always be formed by what we know to be true, yes?

The other night the exchange we had profound effect on me. During that exchange I realized that I was selfishly wanting others to empathize with my position without considering their position. I thanked you for it then and thank you for it again.

Frank

Er, well, you’re welcome. We can all always use more empathy, myself included. I don’t think I did much that’s deserving of thanks, but if what I said helped you, I’m glad to be able to serve.

 

[aidanbradypop]

But the post you were responding to is about the link.

No, the link was not about gay marriage, but about what happened to a parent when they tried to respond to their son’s sexuality in the word of God. Views of gay marriage do not exist in a vacuum, they are part of a continuum. How can we not discuss this without discussing what the people involved went through to get there?

 

[frobert]

I have to disagree with you that having a clear conscience is an arbiter of how one is judged.

There can be some very, very evil people who go to God with a clear conscience.

I know you are attempting to be clear here, but this is very nebulous to me. What, specifically, falls into the categories of “matters of the Church that we must remain true to” and what are matters that are outside of this?

I do not know how God will judge my conscience, I can only know my conscience.

I believe that a sociopath or someone without a conscience or with a faulty conscience will be judged differently than someone who has a decent moral compass and seeks to do no harm which I have stated is the overwhelming principle that I strive for.

I only talk about how I follow my own moral compass, I would feel very uncomfortable telling others how they should follow theirs. I encourage everyone to follow the teachings of the church as they know them and to seek to know more. I do not claim to know everything that is outside church doctrine and teachings and listing everything would undoubtedly leave some gaping holes. When someone is in doubt, I believe they should seek spiritual guidance from a qualified church teacher. I know other well meaning people here feel it a moral obligation to interpret how others should live, I do not know if they are wrong or right but I respectfully disagree with them for the very same reason, namely that they may have gaps in their knowledge. I have found that listening to others and discussing their beliefs along with mine in a non harmful way is a good way to improve. I often find issues have cleared up and that there is a lot more agreement than when we first started the exchange.

Obviously you did not find my post helpful, I apologize that parts of it were left nebulous. I know your knowledge is much greater than mine and you have been in here a lot longer than me, what can you suggest that will make discussion more helpful.

 

[PRmerger]

I do not know how God will judge my conscience, I can only know my conscience.

True, true…

I believe that a sociopath or someone without a conscience or with a faulty conscience will be judged differently than someone who has a decent moral compass and seeks to do no harm which I have stated is the overwhelming principle that I strive for.

Yes. All are judged by God in whatever manner He discerns.

However, if feeling good about one’s conscience is a major factor in determining whether a behavior is moral or not, then that makes morality quite subjective. That is, an adulterer who feels quite comfortable with his adultery (after all, she drove me to it by withholding sex! or, she did it 10 years ago! or it’s only sex, not love!) will not be wrong, in your opinion?

 

[PRmerger]

I only talk about how I follow my own moral compass, I would feel very uncomfortable telling others how they should follow theirs. I encourage everyone to follow the teachings of the church as they know them and to seek to know more. I do not claim to know everything that is outside church doctrine and teachings and listing everything would undoubtedly leave some gaping holes. When someone is in doubt, I believe they should seek spiritual guidance from a qualified church teacher. I know other well meaning people here feel it a moral obligation to interpret how others should live, I do not know if they are wrong or right but I respectfully disagree with them for the very same reason, namely that they may have gaps in their knowledge. I have found that listening to others and discussing their beliefs along with mine in a non harmful way is a good way to improve. I often find issues have cleared up and that there is a lot more agreement than when we first started the exchange.

I don’t see anything here that is contrary to what anyone else has said.

Obviously you did not find my post helpful, I apologize that parts of it were left nebulous.

Could you please explain, more specifically, what “matters of the church” we must “remain true to” and on what matters we can divorce ourselves from the church?

I know your knowledge is much greater than mine and you have been in here a lot longer than me, what can you suggest that will make discussion more helpful.

I would suggest not taking it personally when someone refutes or challenges or questions your arguments here. There is a lot of give and take here–that’s what a *forum *is all about.

 

[estesbob]

We are 99.999 % in agreement. I think the small disagreement we might have is how we react to others who may hold opposing views. I believe the overriding principle is “do no harm” and if my judgement tells me to accept without comment or to share with sympathetic joy is the best way to do no harm then that is what I will do and let God judge my motives.

One only has to look at the high suicide rate of LGBT youth to know that some of the things that we routinely do are harmful even though our intentions are good.

What is it we routinely do that causes high school students to commit suicide??? I think that is a stretch to say the least.

 

[Stephen168]

Adultery is wrong. It is legal. Being a single parent by choice is not giving a child a mother and a father, that is legal. Getting married and divorced and remarried is a sin, yet not illegal. Pre marital sex is legal. Shacking up is legal. Being a stripper is legal. I actually find it a little creepy that so much energy is focused on gay marriage as opposed to these other issues. If we really wanted to protect society, why is this the huge issue at hand?

I think you are equating same sex-marriage and sodomy.
Sodomy is legal. I think it is possible to explain to a homosexual child that their relationship, while loving, is not marriage.

 

[frobert]

What is it we routinely do that causes high school students to commit suicide??? I think that is a stretch to say the least.

Google can be your best friend.

I have said all I need to say on the subject and am burnt out. I am thankful to have had the opportunity to discuss and learn from both sides of the divide. I now need a few days to consolidate what I have learned. I apologize if any of my words have upset anyone, please know it was not my intention to do so, and if anyone would like a private apology please PM me.

Thank you again.
Frank

 

[esieffe]

With all due honor and respect to all loyal Catholics, this has become such a tiresome debate. The Catholic Church does not recognize heterosexual marriage under several different circumstances. Those people in such situations can either live in sin under Catholic doctrine, or re-organize and possibly observe this sacrament properly according to Catholic teachings.

To simply remain married, is also an option. Their marriage is still legal under secular law in the US, and they go on, leaving the outcome with God. If gay marriage becomes legal under secular law, there is no difference from the first example I mentioned. It is not legitimate in the eyes of the church, and that is that.

Personally, I want to live within Catholic doctrine as it stands, to properly receive the Eucharist. Others may not choose to do this. So be it. The actions by a secular society have no true or lasting effect on the Church. Gay people who want to get married are not concerned if the RCC approves. So be it. If they are happy and monogamous and are otherwise good Christians, all the better. At that point it is between them and God.

What we have here is a bunch of people beating a dead horse who will never budge either way, wasting precious time and resources. We should always make doctrine clear and available to those who wish to understand and live by it, or by those who wish to adapt, and that my good friends is THAT.

Lets move on, shall we! We have other fish to fry. The Holy Father has suggested that we focus on other things for now. [although I have a tough time doing that with abortion issues more than anything else.] Let us stop worrying about others and concentrate on ourselves. I am certainly no exception, I need to take my own medicine. But I will no longer allow myself to be sidetracked by issues I have absolutely no control over.

 

[esieffe]

A good example is Anne Hathaway,an accomplished actress and formerly devout Catholic.She now
Rejects the Faith because her brother is a homosexual and the Church wont accept his behavior…

I guess I get that…still, I have unconditional love for my family, but none of that alters my faith. Who does not want their family members to be happy, or to know true love? I can accept and love them for who they are without compromising my faith and my relationship with Christ, the Mother of Heaven, God or his Church. Is that so very hard to do?

 

[Lochias]

I guess I get that…still, I have unconditional love for my family, but none of that alters my faith. Who does not want their family members to be happy, or to know true love? I can accept and love them for who they are without compromising my faith and my relationship with Christ, the Mother of Heaven, God or his Church. Is that so very hard to do?

If we allow others to continue in actions that are both physically and spiritually harmful to themselves and others for the sake of “keeping the peace”, we are only helping those actions along.

We never stop loving people for who they are, but love also encompasses protecting and guarding our loved ones from things that they may not (or choose not to) realize are harmful.

 

[estesbob]

I guess I get that…still, I have unconditional love for my family, but none of that alters my faith. Who does not want their family members to be happy, or to know true love? I can accept and love them for who they are without compromising my faith and my relationship with Christ, the Mother of Heaven, God or his Church. Is that so very hard to do?

I have a very close relative who is in a committed homosexual relationship. She and her partner know we don’t approve of their relationship but we include them in all family activities and get along quite well. the key is love them but never affirm their behavior.

 

[esieffe]

What is it we routinely do that causes high school students to commit suicide??? I think that is a stretch to say the least.

Gays don’t have the power to destroy marriage, they never have. The do not have power over the sacrament of marriage. They never will.

Evil people, who wear the cloak of Christianity, but are clearly not Christians, do, it would seem, to have the power to push gay students to the brink of suicide. Not a stretch at all estesbobb. You see it here in words, written by some with such zeal. We all have our history, including our CAF history.