How do we know that Mary was without sin and forever a virgin

[pocohombre]

I could say more on this topic but it is off topic so back to the topic.

The priest in his homily spoke of the reality of how women were treated. He said that they were totally reliant on men. If a woman did not have a son to take care of her, she had to rely on another. She might ask a son-in-law as we see with Peter. He also stated that if they could not find someone than they starved to death. This goes to the crux of why Mary would need Joseph even with a vow of virginity.

What about her sister? Could she not have helped in raising her sisters’ kids ?

 

[fbl9]

chop…
. Beside him there is no other. Yes, down here I love mothers and princesses and queens, and we can intercede for one another. Up there Christ will be are all in all and we shall be like Him.

We are like Christ. in what manner?
What does Christ do in heaven? Does He mediate?
If you are like some one do you as they do?

 

[adrift]

What about her sister? Could she not have helped in raising her sisters’ kids ?

Only if her brother-in-law would take her in to his home which he was not obliged to do. However, where does it say that she had a sister? Mary did not have any siblings according to tradition she was an only child.

You can ask all sorts of speculative questions. Couldn’t this or couldn’t that but the facts are unwed mother would have been stoned or at the very least ostracized from the community which was the same as death. Mary needed a husband to protect her. She would not have been accepted into their society as a single mother. That is a modern term and concept. There would be nothing else available to her in that time for her to raise Jesus on her own.

 

[pocohombre]

We are like Christ. in what manner?

Not sure totally how we shall be like him.For sure we will not sin, miss the mark anymore. We have His "mind’.

What does Christ do in heaven?

Sits? Waits? Intercedes.Rules the heavenlies.Rules the earth where it does not abrogate free will.

If you are like some one do you as they do?

Yes,disciples we are.Not sure saints rule with Him yet in heaven, but for sure later yes.Again ,He told us it will be different as far as husband /wife.He also said spirit is thicker than blood (as in earthly relations,brother, sister, husband, wife).Get that partly and partly don’t. I suppose we never forget our spouses but it looks like it will be spiritual union only, we move on, much like I will never forget my childhood but now I am an adlut (most of the time) and have left childish things behind. Earthly sentiment is strong,but heavenly I am told is better and lasts forever.

 

[pocohombre]

Only if her brother-in-law would take her in to his home which he was not obliged to do. However, where does it say that she had a sister? Mary did not have any siblings according to tradition she was an only child.

Yes brother in law would have to consent. I was not saying Mary would force herself into his protection/care. Not sure where I get she had a sister, or was it a cousin? I hear it when we discuss “the brethren of Jesus”. I hear either they were from Joseph of a previous marriage or from sister,or cousin, that “brethren” were cousins.

You can ask all sorts of speculative questions. Couldn’t this or couldn’t that but the facts are unwed mother would have been stoned or at the very least ostracized from the community which was the same as death. Mary needed a husband to protect her. She would not have been accepted into their society as a single mother. That is a modern term and concept. There would be nothing else available to her in that time for her to raise Jesus on her own.

Understand, but we were discussing her alledged vow of virginity before she knew she was to be pregnant, and it’s social ramifications and need for marriage.

 

[adrift]

Yes brother in law would have to consent. I was not saying Mary would force herself into his protection/care. Not sure where I get she had a sister, or was it a cousin? I hear it when we discuss “the brethren of Jesus”. I hear either they were from Joseph of a previous marriage or from sister,or cousin, that “brethren” were cousins.

Brethern covered uncles aunts and cousins. There were no terms to distinguish an aunt from a cousin or a natural sibling. It is stated in John

25 These things therefore the soldiers did. But there were standing by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene

It is unlikely that two sisters would be named Mary. It is thought that Clopas was an uncle.

Understand, but we were discussing her alledged vow of virginity before she knew she was to be pregnant, and it’s social ramifications and need for marriage.

It was also asked why Mary would need a husband. She would need a husband because she would have to be cared for and that is the way it was for women at that time. They lived in someones household or they didn’t survive.

 

[pocohombre]

Brethern covered uncles aunts and cousins. There were no terms to distinguish an aunt from a cousin or a natural sibling. It is stated in John

It is unlikely that two sisters would be named Mary. It is thought that Clopas was an uncle.

It was also asked why Mary would need a husband. She would need a husband because she would have to be cared for and that is the way it was for women at that time. They lived in someones household or they didn’t survive.

How do we get word for cousin in reference to Elizabeth, Mary’s cousin? I think Greek can differentiate.It’s weird but my Greek shows difference in two names slightly (Marie and Mary ?) don’t have it in front of me. Anyways that is a suggestion I have heard from other Catholics,that they were cousins, not sure now if they stressed sister,brother or uncle (second gen uncle ?)

 

[adrift]

How do we get word for cousin in reference to Elizabeth, Mary’s cousin?

The word used is suggenes adj 1) of the same kin, akin to, related by blood 2) in a wider sense, of the same nation, a fellow countryman
It is translated as kinswoman, relative or cousin. As you can see the Greek, means related by blood or a fellow countryman. Remember that the Greek is a translation of what would have been said in Aramaic.
The word used when mentioning brothers is adelphos.

I think Greek can differentiate.It’s weird but my Greek shows difference in two names slightly (Marie and Mary ?) don’t have it in front of me. Anyways that is a suggestion I have heard from other Catholics,that they were cousins, not sure now if they stressed sister,brother or uncle (second gen uncle ?)

From my understanding, the name would have been Mariam. The Greek has the same name for both Mary Magdalene and the sister of Mary.

 

[pocohombre]

Here are some of the fruits(progression) from a sinless,ever virgin Mary. Instead of or along side of “God is our refuge,Thou art my refuge,The God of Jacob is our refuge, In the shadow of thy wings( O God) will I take refuge.” you now have “Beneath your compassion(Mary),we take refuge”, The Virgin of Mercy protecting souls under her mantle,“to whose protection the faithful fly in all dangers and needs”.

 

[pocohombre]

Instead or along side of , " No man can come to me (Jesus) except the Father…draw him" and “I am the Door of the sheep…by me if any man enter in he shall be saved”,and “No one goes to the Father except through the Son”, you have “No one can enter Heaven unless by Mary, as through a door”, ( St.Bonaventure) and “Thou art the gate through which all find Jesus,through thee ( Mary) I hope to find Him”

 

[adrift]

Here are some of the fruits(progression) from a sinless,ever virgin Mary. Instead of or along side of “God is our refuge,Thou art my refuge,The God of Jacob is our refuge, In the shadow of thy wings( O God) will I take refuge.” you now have “Beneath your compassion(Mary),we take refuge”, The Virgin of Mercy protecting souls under her mantle,“to whose protection the faithful fly in all dangers and needs”.

Instead or along side of , " No man can come to me (Jesus) except the Father…draw him" and “I am the Door of the sheep…by me if any man enter in he shall be saved”,and “No one goes to the Father except through the Son”, you have “No one can enter Heaven unless by Mary, as through a door”, ( St.Bonaventure) and “Thou art the gate through which all find Jesus,through thee ( Mary) I hope to find Him”

What does this have to do with us knowing Mary is sinless and forever a virgin?

 

[Persecuted]

Hi,

I’m not a Catholic (yet) but I think this is a very good talk on the two questions that you are asking:

biblechristiansociety.com/download → then click on Mary & the Bible; plus Purgatory & the Bible.

Just personally, the way I reasoned myself over the obstacle of Mary was, if Mary does not have the status Catholics say she does, how do you discount the many and well attested Marian apparitions?

Particularly I’m thinking of Fatima, Portugal. I have looked into this case a bit and it’s very very, very hard to explain it away. Just going by the evidence, if you were going to ignore the Fatima miracle of the sun, you would be at least as justified in ignoring the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus.

 

[pocohombre]

What does this have to do with us knowing Mary is sinless and forever a virgin?

It’s in the eye of the beholder.One would look at what I said and see the beauty of the additional revelation, others would see it as more than "veneration’ , and spoiling the lump,the leaven being sinless Mary and ever virgin. It proves absolutely nothing but sometimes you can look at the fruit of a possible dogma and determine it’s necessity or probability of truth in it.

 

[adrift]

It’s in the eye of the beholder.One would look at what I said and see the beauty of the additional revelation, others would see it as more than "veneration’ , and spoiling the lump,the leaven being sinless Mary and ever virgin. It proves absolutely nothing but sometimes you can look at the fruit of a possible dogma and determine it’s necessity or probability of truth in it.

You are right about the eye of the beholder. The fruit of a dogma? This indeed would be in the eye of the beholder. I assume you see bad fruit where others see good. It is to subjective to hold much value and could actually lead a person astray. Taking out of context doesn’t help either. Context not only in what is written but the time and intent which are lacking in your quotes. Everything is about Jesus including His mother. Did you get that HIS mother. Those who disparage Jesus’ mother also disparage their own mother. Jesus was like us accept is sin. He loved His mother. Don’t you think the honor we give her is the honor He gives? Would you not want your own mother to be honored by others.

 

[pocohombre]

You are right about the eye of the beholder. The fruit of a dogma? This indeed would be in the eye of the beholder. I assume you see bad fruit where others see good. It is to subjective to hold much value and could actually lead a person astray. Taking out of context doesn’t help either. Context not only in what is written but the time and intent which are lacking in your quotes. Everything is about Jesus including His mother. Did you get that HIS mother. Those who disparage Jesus’ mother also disparage their own mother. Jesus was like us accept is sin. He loved His mother. Don’t you think the honor we give her is the honor He gives? Would you not want your own mother to be honored by others.

Yes it could be subjective both ways and lead astray. Some feel the focus shifts too much to Mary.Tying it to Jesus, or with better context may help but still may be unecessary.Pretty sure the context is there on the Mary as protector qoutes.The image is still there, we are all huddlled under her "wings, and that is the practice. One may say but the exact dogma,teahcing is that she is tied to the King, hence the protetction,really coming from Him. That is nice but those are not the sentiments always said by individuals. Those are not the sentiments potrayed by OT scripture of whom are protetcor is .OT could have given similar images to Moses,Abraham,David as protectors for they certainly were thru God, yet they properly obstained from such references…It is only disparaging in your eyes.Others feel that any wrong portrayal of Mary is wrong,over or under venerating her.It is not all or nothing,my way or the highway ,either she is Queen of Heaven or you think of her as nothing much.Earthly sentiments again,like don’t you love your mother.If Mary is not Queen I don’t love her? That is the whole debate, just how does Jesus think of her. I see a long glorious chain from Eve all the way to Mary , and Joseph ,as given by the scriptures from which the crown Jewel is hung Christ .Any break in the chain and it is broken .Each is due honor.Each is the gate to Christ. Know Abraham, David and you can know Christ ,as you can thru Mary also.

 

[adrift]

Yes it could be subjective both ways and lead astray. Some feel the focus shifts too much to Mary.Tying it to Jesus, or with better context may help but still may be unecessary.Pretty sure the context is there on the Mary as protector qoutes.

Ponder the wedding at Cana. Was she not an advocate, a protecter of the bride and groom?

Jesus’ first miricle at the behest of His mother. She protected them against the embarrassment of not having enough wine. She asked (advocted) Jesus for help. She gave us a most importand lesson “do as He says”

You didn’t answer my question
Don’t you think the honor we give her is the honor He gives to her as His mother?

 

[pocohombre]

Ponder the wedding at Cana. Was she not an advocate, a protecter of the bride and groom?

Jesus’ first miricle at the behest of His mother. She protected them against the embarrassment of not having enough wine. She asked (advocted) Jesus for help. She gave us a most importand lesson “do as He says”

You didn’t answer my question
Don’t you think the honor we give her is the honor He gives to her as His mother?

There were 3256 plus miracles done by Jesus .How many advocates do you think there were for many of those miracles ? We have one advocate, one mediator before the Father, the Lord Jesus. Mary was graced in that he complied, but only after asserting it was His decision.The next time she asked for something he did not comply (to come home to rest when he was at Capernum).He showed something deeper than blood and human relationship/sentimentality and showed true “brotherhood,motherhood etc” is spiritual. Do as he says, does he say ask in her name and the Father can not deny? Does he not say ask in my name and the Father can not deny?

 

[pocohombre]

Don’t you think the honor we give her is the honor He gives to her as His mother?

As CC teaches and especially as practiced, no. Shall we be like the apostles and argue as to who will be the greater, who will sit at his right side ?.. All who do the will of the Father are His mother.

 

[adrift]

There were 3256 plus miracles done by Jesus .How many advocates do you think there were for many of those miracles ?

Where did you get this number? I would say that we don’t know the number. What is recorded in the Bible is 37 according to one site I consulted. Your answer struck my funny bone
How many did He tell it wasn’t His time? To say that she didn’t have influence is really burying your head in the sand.

We have one advocate, one mediator before the Father, the Lord Jesus.

I don’t disagree. However, you should never ask anyone to pray for you then. Jesus being our one advocate and the important words that you used before the Father does not prevent us having others ask Jesus. Paul asked that prayers be said for him.

Mary was graced in that he complied, but only after asserting it was His decision.The next time she asked for something he did not comply (to come home to rest when he was at Capernum).

Could you tell me what Scripture this would be that states she asked him to come home to rest?

]He showed something deeper than blood and human relationship/sentimentality and showed true “brotherhood,motherhood etc” is spiritual. Do as he says, does he say ask in her name and the Father can not deny? Does he not say ask in my name and the Father can not deny?

This is a straw man argument.

 

[adrift]

As CC teaches and especially as practiced, no. Shall we be like the apostles and argue as to who will be the greater, who will sit at his right side ?.. All who do the will of the Father are His mother.

You don’t think she did the will of the Father? You really skirted the question. Jesus was human as well as being God. He never sinned so He honored His mother. Do you believe this honor disappeared even now? The Scripture you rely on was Jesus making a point. Do you really think that Jesus was disowning His mother? In which case, wouldn’t that be a breaking of the commandment?