How do we know that the Church has infallible authority?

[guanophore]

The passages that you quote make my point. Jesus is given all authority in Heaven and on Earth. It’s not passed along to any mortal man. Jesus is still with us through the power of the Holy Spirit. The apostles may have had the “authority” to teach if you want to use the word authority, but that’s because they witnessed Jesus death and ressurection or were called as in the case of Paul. What they wanted was for reliable people to pass along these teachings so they would not get distorted and people like us could understand who Jesus really was. Which makes my point about the importance of the Bible plain and simple. In matters of Faith the Bible overrides anything a church official may think he has the authority to say.

Ahh. I see you are a Sola Scriptura! Where did your bible come from, I wonder?

It was not just authority to teach, although that is an important part of it, but also authority to bind and loose.

Perhaps this is hard for you to accept because you have authority problems?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

When Jesus says “Whatever” when it comes to binding and loosing is that just too much authority given by Jesus for a Protestant to take?

Of course it is! That much authority brings down the whole system of Protestant lies.

Why do Protestants think that God has supreme authority but would not give “Whatever” authority to Peter?

That doesn’t bring down God–He remains in charge–He’s big enough not to be threatened by that.

He did it so those who would not submit would be easily discerned and would have no excuse!

What is the truth? What the Catholic Church teaches!

A church like that would always prevail–not because of Peter or his successors but because Peter and his successors believed Jesus!

Say you don’t believe Peter and his successors? Then you don’t believe Jesus!

Jesus’ transmission of “Whatever” authority to Peter is Binding on every Protestant that has ever lived.

If you are Protestant and don’t like the fact that Jesus transmitted that authority–if you don’t like the fact that He gave the disciples the authority to forgive sins–then tuff!

If you don’t like it then you don’t like Jesus!

And your personal relationship with Christ is as small as the Christ that you have created!

 

[inchrist101]

Most don’t even understand the meaning of Binding and Loosing which comes from the Jewish culture. The Rabbis were given the power of binding and loosing which means to interpret the law of God. If someone wasn’t sure if an action they took was a violation of God’s law then they went to the Rabbi who had the power to either Bind tightly to the law or to be a little Loose. But whatever the ruling the person had to abide by that. Jesus didn’t only give this power to the Apostles he gave it to the entire church which is all believers in Christ.

Matthew 18: 15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly,** I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed [6] in heaven.**

Was Jesus speaking to just the apostles? NO he was addressing this to everyone. Notice how he says take it to the church. To think that Peter has the ultimate authority in the Church because Jesus mentioned bind and loose is ridiculous.

You can argue all you want about authority but tell me this oh great Roman Catholics, what power or authority do you have to tell me or anyone that our souls are not saved unless we are part of the Roman Catholic church. I’m a devout Christian which makes me part of the universal church of Jesus which is Christian not Roman Catholic. And tell me this, when I went through my divorce what authority did the Catholic church have to tell me that I could not come back unless it was annulled. And by the way I was supposed to pay $2000 for this ridiculous thing which I didn’t of course. Show me that in the Bible.

I attend a non-denominational church which preaches straight from the Bible. Our congregation is approaching almost 4000 people, 80% of which are former Catholics. 7-8 of every 10 new members are from the Catholic church. Why? Because they are sick of the power and authority trip the Catholic church is on. At the end of the day our salvation is dependent upon our belief and acceptance of Jesus as our savior. And I don’t mean just saying it, I mean really living it day to day. Someone who professes their belief in Jesus and then murders or steals doesn’t cut it for me. I don’t need any authority to tell me how to believe in Jesus. You either do or you don’t. And I certainly don’t need the authority of the Pope which is nothing but a political office created by Leo the Great to tell me I’m saved or not saved.

The rock that the church is built on is not Peter. It’s the confession he made that Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus isn’t revealing Peter as the deity, it’s the other way around. Otherwise Jesus would have said Peter I build my church on you. He wouldn’t have been so confusing as to use the word rock and leave it up to our interpretation. So I guess since the Orthodox churches split off because of this you’re going to tell me they’re not saved either. Read a little more scripture Catholics and notice that Jesus tells us not to judge anyone.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

There’s a very big difference between judging what is true doctrine and what the consequences are for rejecting what the true church teaches and judging individual souls.

The people who always come with the lame “Judge not that ye be not judged”–if they really beive it in that narrow ignorant sense–they should be out campaigning to get rid of all the courts and all of the jails!

That’s the logical conclusion you get from such absurdity!

 

[guanophore]

Most don’t even understand the meaning of Binding and Loosing which comes from the Jewish culture. The Rabbis were given the power of binding and loosing which means to interpret the law of God. If someone wasn’t sure if an action they took was a violation of God’s law then they went to the Rabbi who had the power to either Bind tightly to the law or to be a little Loose. But whatever the ruling the person had to abide by that. Jesus didn’t only give this power to the Apostles he gave it to the entire church which is all believers in Christ.

If you believe this, then why did you refuse to submit to the ruling of your elders with regard to your anullment?

Matthew 18: 15 ,** I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed [6] in heaven.**

Was Jesus speaking to just the apostles? NO he was addressing this to everyone. Notice how he says take it to the church. To think that Peter has the ultimate authority in the Church because Jesus mentioned bind and loose is ridiculous.

You need to look back at the context. this authority was apostolic only. Jesus was in the house. Peter came in, and Jesus told him to pay tax. Then all the disciples came in, and Jesus taught them how to resolve conflicts among the believers. Jesus at NO time said “sling Bible verses at each other till someone caves in”. No, the Church is a Theocracy. Jesus is the head. Jesus gave the keys to Peter, and instructed all the Apostles in how to exercise their authority.

You can argue all you want about authority but tell me this oh great Roman Catholics,

This seems like a pompous approach by someone who ends the thread by chastising us for not reading our bibles about judging others. there are more judgemental remarks in your post than the whole rest of the thread put together!

what power or authority do you have to tell me or anyone that our souls are not saved unless we are part of the Roman Catholic church.

No one ever said that.

However if the Church did teach anything, it was because Jesus gave the church the power.

I’m a devout Christian which makes me part of the universal church of Jesus which is Christian not Roman Catholic.

No one ever said the universal church was Roman. The pope is only pointing out the obvious, that there is only one church, and everyone who is saved is part of it. Or are you going to say that you are not subject to scripture either?

Eph 4:3-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all."

And tell me this, when I went through my divorce what authority did the Catholic church have to tell me that I could not come back unless it was annulled. And by the way I was supposed to pay $2000 for this ridiculous thing which I didn’t of course. Show me that in the Bible.

It seems unlikely that you were told “not to come back”. The church is full of sinners, ones who pay their fees, and one’s who do not.

Why? Because they are sick of the power and authority trip the Catholic church is on.

This is certainly a most solid base for a Protestant faith!

You either do or you don’t. And I certainly don’t need the authority of the Pope which is nothing but a political office created by Leo the Great to tell me I’m saved or not saved.

In that case, perhaps your Jesus will heal you of the obvious resentment you have toward the Catholics, and the painful experience of your divorce, anullment, and resultant separation from the sacraments.

The rock that the church is built on is not Peter. It’s the confession he made that Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus isn’t revealing Peter as the deity, it’s the other way around. Otherwise Jesus would have said Peter I build my church on you. He wouldn’t have been so confusing as to use the word rock and leave it up to our interpretation. So I guess since the Orthodox churches split off because of this you’re going to tell me they’re not saved either. Read a little more scripture Catholics and notice that Jesus tells us not to judge anyone.

The Catholic Church does not decide who is saved, and who is not. It is understood that this is up to God, just as it was up to God to establish the Church whereby they might be saved.

 

[Sams_Son]

That the Catholic church has listened to just one authority for two thousand years simply is not true. Consider all of the heresies, the councils called to debate them, the people excommunicated, the schisms. There are many people who were considered Catholic at the time that disagreed with the church. And many others have challenged its authority and continue to do so. What you have now is a remnant, and that remnant believes that it has always been right, but as those who have been pushed to the side believed they were right.

You may ultimatley be proved to be right in your theology, but the idea that there has been unanimity within the Catholic church for its entire history is just so much nonsense.

You are almost Catholic… Continue you study. God Bless you

 

[Church_Militant]

IC101 would like us to believe that we are in error because we are actually reading the Word of God and pointing out that what he (and I guess his church as well) holds as a personal belief is actually a doctrinal error. That’s simply not true because the New Testament says that the spiritual man discerns all things. (1st Corinthians 2:15).

I have to wonder if he is accurate in his assertion that 80% of his 4,000 member church (that comes to what? 3200 people?! ) are former Catholics. That makes it sound a lot like hype and propaganda to me and feeds my innate skepticism.

 

[Church_Militant]

Most don’t even understand the meaning of Binding and Loosing which comes from the Jewish culture. …

Matthew 18: 15-18…

Was Jesus speaking to just the apostles? NO he was addressing this to everyone. Notice how he says take it to the church. To think that Peter has the ultimate authority in the Church because Jesus mentioned bind and loose is ridiculous.

Am I the only one who notices here that he cites only the passage he likes because it seems to make his case? Yet here is the other passage where this is mentioned. Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

And in this case it is very clear that Our Lord IS speaking especially to Peter and then the apostles. Even the Greek text shows that this was addressed to St. Peter.

You can argue all you want about authority but tell me this oh great Roman Catholics, what power or authority do you have to tell me or anyone that our souls are not saved unless we are part of the Roman Catholic church.

We cannot speak as to your salvation, and in fact if you are in doctrinal error, then the Catholic Church does indeed have not only tech right but the responsibility to offer correction whether you and your friends like it or not or heed it or not.

I’m a devout Christian which makes me part of the universal church of Jesus which is Christian not Roman Catholic.

Again, how would we know since no one but you and God know your heart? We can accept your profession at face value, but honestly that is all it is.

And tell me this, when I went through my divorce what authority did the Catholic church have to tell me that I could not come back unless it was annulled. And by the way I was supposed to pay $2000 for this ridiculous thing which I didn’t of course. Show me that in the Bible.

This is your allegation and since it cannot be verified, why even bring it up? If this is an issue then perhaps you should have taken that up with your bishop. Did you? I somehow doubt it.

None of us can ascertain the veracity of your comments, so you’ll forgive me if ignore them due to the lack of verifiability and relevance to this topic.

I attend a non-denominational church which preaches straight from the Bible. Our congregation is approaching almost 4000 people, 80% of which are former Catholics. 7-8 of every 10 new members are from the Catholic church. Why? Because they are sick of the power and authority trip the Catholic church is on.

Again, unverifiable allegations and then a rhetorical rash generalization offered as if it is fact. Unless you can prove your remarks true then, again, it loses relevance and may as well be ignored.

Your rhetoric notwithstanding, I have not seen any evidence “of the power and authority trip the Catholic church is on.” I have found the Church to be a good and faithful shepherd of my soul in some of the worst times of my life.

At the end of the day our salvation is dependent upon our belief and acceptance of Jesus as our savior.

Unscriptural belief. I’m sorry, but that is not consistent with the teachings of the New Testament on salvation. Your statement infers belief in Sola Fide, which is an error in teaching that the Christian Church has never taught until some 500 years ago…but that is another thread topic, and I’m sure you can find articles and threads around here that detail why it is wrong.

And I don’t mean just saying it, I mean really living it day to day. Someone who professes their belief in Jesus and then murders or steals doesn’t cut it for me.

So you do not sin? How miraculous! I’m sorry if I find your concept of Christian living just a bit oversimplified in the light of my own pretty extensive reading of the Word of God.
(Cont’d)

 

[Church_Militant]

I don’t need any authority to tell me how to believe in Jesus. You either do or you don’t. And I certainly don’t need the authority of the Pope which is nothing but a political office created by Leo the Great to tell me I’m saved or not saved.

This is nothing but an anti-Catholic propaganda without basis in fact. The papacy existed long long before Leo the Great…

Furthermore, you do indeed need an authority to tell you how to believe in Jesus, else why would Our Lord have left us a church? Matthew 28:19-20 says, “19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.” So your remark is not based upon the Word of God. There are also many other passages that point up the need for the church’s authority. Your own scripture citation above about binding and loosing also teaches this

The rock that the church is built on is not Peter. It’s the confession he made that Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus isn’t revealing Peter as the deity, it’s the other way around. Otherwise Jesus would have said Peter I build my church on you.

This is actually completely inaccurate since the Greek text shows that Our Lord was indeed speaking directly to St. Peter. Your interpretation is in error as is the rest of your comments which have nothing whatever to do with Catholic teaching since we are not taught Peter was divine. However, if Jesus had not meant that Peter was His rock that he built His Church upon then why would he have commanded him to feed His lambs and sheep and strengthen his brethren? That was said to Peter alone…

He wouldn’t have been so confusing as to use the word rock and leave it up to our interpretation.

Our Lord called Peter Kepha from the moment he chose him as an apostle. (John 1:42)

So I guess since the Orthodox churches split off because of this you’re going to tell me they’re not saved either.

It would really be nice if you’d actually read what that Catholic Church does teach before going off on an anti-Catholic rant like this. If you did, you wouldn’t make such an inaccurate remark.

Read a little more scripture Catholics and notice that Jesus tells us not to judge anyone.

“Physician heal thyself” as the Word of God says. It feels to me more like you have gone off on an uncharitable and judgmental rant against the Catholic Church and in the process made several inaccurate statements about what Catholics supposedly believe.

To be honest, if this is a display of your level of knowledge of the Catholic faith before you left, then it’s a small wonder that you left to embrace some of the errant doctrines that you have expressed in this post.

 

[Good_Fella]

InChrist101, may I suggest you reopen your Bible and see what Jesus has to say about divorce.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[Barbara_Shafto]

Hi all,

Back in the day I seem to recall Jesus giving Peter the authority
to bind and loose. Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build
my Church and behold I will be with you all days even until the
consumation of the world and the gates of hell will not revail against it.
What is he binding and loosing if not sin and thereby He was giving him moral authority.

What do you think?

Barbara Shafto

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Welcome to CAF Barbara!

 

[Tomster]

You need to stop using using the term authority. Jesus gave no one authority and if you refer to scripture you will see that.

Matthew 20: 25 But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 26 It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, [3] 27 and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, [4] 28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Jesus meant for his church to be a serving church. He wanted the Apostles to evangelize his name to everyone just as we should. The church itself has no authority over anyone. Jesus is the only one with authority.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in [2] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 **teaching **them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Notice the word teaching not authority. The important thing for Christians is to have faith. How do we achieve that today? We have the Bible which records the teachings of the Apostles and some of their followers in the case of Mark and Luke. Scripture is really all we have as far as documentation from anyone that followed Jesus. It’s a measuring stick for us so we can know when we come across false teachings. As Bruce Shelly writes in his book “History of the Church”, the early church fathers always used scripture when deciding on matters of faith. The first question was what does the Bible say. We need to do the same thing.

Invoking authority in the case of Bishop Leo who was the first self proclaimed Pontifex Maximus (i.e. Pope) is what caused the first split in the church. The churches in the East referred to scripture immediately on this matter and showed that it was counter to Leo’s argument for authority.

As far as Paul was concerned he didn’t look at the Apostles as having authority, he taught about Jesus before he even had the chance to converse with them. When he did finally have the chance to converse with them he wanted to make sure what he was teaching was the same thing they were. Not because of authority but because he knew they walked with Jesus and would know what he taught.

Acts 9: 26 And when he had come to Jerusalem, he attempted to join the disciples. And they were all afraid of him, for they did not believe that he was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles and declared to them how on the road he had seen the Lord, who spoke to him, and how at Damascus he had preached boldly in the name of Jesus. 28 So he went in and out among them at Jerusalem, preaching boldly in the name of the Lord.

The church simply does not have authority over anyone. No Christian church does whether Protestant, Roman Catholic, etc. etc.

A salvation which is secured by believing that we are saved, and a Bible interpreted to suit its reader, has led Protestants to regard even Protestant churches as irrelevant to salvation, although they continue to be gathering places for hearing the Word, Sunday school classes, Bible study, and the all-important fellowship.

Why all-important? The severance from and repudiation of the Church, tantamount to throwing the divine plan for our spiritual and social needs back in the face of Christ, breeds the terrifying, subterranean loneliness which characterizes the world of the Protestant. He inhabits a desolate terrain, resembling the site of some colossal explosion. Each soul is isolated from every other. Each believer holds a set of beliefs differing in particulars from every other set of beliefs held by every other believer even in the same sect, and often differing even from that which he believed only yesterday.

 

[Tomster]

continued

Held, in the main, only by strong social ties, but dissatisfied inside, he may go to this denomination this week, and to that next week, or perhaps nowhere, until, maybe next year, when he hears of some new doctrine, some new preacher. He is unable to conceive of the unchanging nature of Catholicism, because it is outside his experience. He can never feel that he is part of something larger than himself, because inexorable Protestantism imperatives ensure that there IS nothing larger than himself.

The Fundamentalist accepts many divinely revealed truths, but those tenets which identify him as a Protestant are the denials of Revelation originating with the Protestant Reformation. His most cherished beliefs are disguised as negatives: “faith alone” is a denial of everything else; " I am saved," its formal expression. He establishes contact with his fellow believers not through subscribing to a creed of apostolic origin, or joining them in a worship service prescribed by Christ, in use by the apostles before the Bible was written. He joins them through the recitation of the negatives of his oral tradition - the list of what he does NOT believe - and the reiteration of Luther’s “I am saved.”

The unremitting repetition possibly offsets a deep, probably unconscious malaise, proceeding from an unrecognized apprehension that the Catholic Church IS the Church, after all, and the consequent need for an excuse. The gnawing uneasiness manifests itself by a continual, seemingly daily as evidenced on these message boards, apparently compusive justification of his inability to accept the Church. The explanation of why he is not a Catholic is preferably made to a Catholic, who has not asked, nor even wondered. It must be put forward, nevertheless, if only to another Protestant.

continued

 

[Tomster]

continued

It is a phenomenon which has no Catholic parallel. There is the frequent cataloguing of the myths furnished by his tradition: the Church forbade the reading of the Bible, the Church was founded by the Emperor Constantine, transubstantiation was never heard of before 1215 A.D., and so forth. He may be attacking Catholic beliefs, and maligning the Church, but he is the one who needs to hear, and hear continually, that the Catholic Church is not, and cannot be, the Church established by Jesus Christ.

The Protestant who can detach a Catholic from the Church is vindicated in his own rejection of the truth. Driven by the need to prove that he has been right all along, he is alert to any and every opportunityto enlighten Catholics. He may be surrounded by people who are divorced and remarried, procuring abortions, tubal ligations and vasectomies, watching pornographic movied, telling and enjoying filth jokes, and committing adultery at every opportunity. It is the Catholic he will “witness to” and attempt to “save.”

The Catholic who accepts the Fundamentalist/Protestant’s supposed expertise and permits him to guide him in spiritual matters, ot teach him what the Bible says, is in need of instruction, and badly, but not from this source. Catholics have not been taught to despise Protestant beliefs, while every Protestant has been inculcated with an intense animosity toward the Catholic Church and whatever she teaches, although he is frequently misinformed about the latter, and opposes not her actual teaching, but teaching which has been attributed to the Church. The Fundamentaist, being more fervant than the liberal Protestant, is more determined to act on his animosity. But he has nothing to offer a Catholic. He can only take away what he has.

 

[inchrist101]

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!!!

Not impressed.

 

[clmowry]

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!!!

Not impressed.

Oh…I wanna play too.

Wha…wa…waw waa wah waaaaaah. - The Teacher from Charlie Brown.

 

[wanner47]

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!!!

Not impressed.

Translation: “I can’t refute the logic, so I choose to ignore it so as not to upset my pleasant worldview.”

You’re in my prayers.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

(Edited)
As I read Tomster, whether he meant to say it or not, his worldview becomes quite apparent: Salvation is found in no other place than the Catholic Church. I.E. Salvation is not found in the person and work of Christ. Though I don’t think that this is what the Catholic church teaches, that is the essence of what he said above. (Edited)

 

[wanner47]

As I read Tomster, whether he meant to say it or not, his worldview becomes quite apparent: Salvation is found in no other place than the Catholic Church. I.E. Salvation is not found in the person and work of Christ. Though I don’t think that this is what the Catholic church teaches, that is the essence of what he said above. The rest really was “blah, blah, blah”, just repeating more of the same, and it was appropriate to label it as such.

So refute what’s refutable. Saying merely “blah blah blah” helps no one and in no way contributes to a constructive discussion.