How do we prove the soul exists?

[atheistgirl]

But for most people it is completely natural to prefer everlasting life to everlasting life.

Perhaps

That doesn’t make it so

Can’t understand how you know for a certainty there is no life after death.

There’s no evidence for it.

I do however, have a lot of evidence that suggests that all things that die, decompose and become recycled back into the food chain eventually.

This is how it should be and is very very attractive to me.

My remains will feed a particular tree I have selected, offering food, shelter and joy for many years to come to many more generations of my family, until eventually the earth implodes and I’m returned to star dust from which I, and all of us, came.

This is just awesome to me

And means, of course, I will live on after death, just not in the way that this ‘‘most’’ you refer to understands it

Sarah x

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I do however, have a lot of evidence that suggests that all things that die, decompose and become recycled back into the food chain eventually.

This is how it should be and is very very attractive to me.

You will perhaps forgive me for suggesting that I detect some whistling in the dark here?

 

[atheistgirl]

You will perhaps forgive me for suggesting that I detect some whistling in the dark here?

I’m not sure what you mean?

Are you saying you don’t think I’m serious?

I assure you I am being completely honest when I say I find the natural recycling process that applies to all things once living, very attractive and in fact, reassuring

It’s natural.

Eternal life in a Heaven isn’t natural to me.

It holds no appeal I’m afraid.

Honestly!

Sarah x

 

[Charlemagne_III]

There’s no evidence for it.

That would of course be true if you are saying the only evidence you would accept would be to communicate with the souls of dead people.

Then again, in all likelihood you’d have to believe in God before you could believe in a soul, never mind an immortal soul. That appears to be for you a stumbling block.

Would it be fair to say that the only way you would believe in God is if He appeared to you in person?

I don’t think so. Because after second thoughts, you would probably explain that you had gone delusional for a bit?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Eternal life in a Heaven isn’t natural to me.

It holds no appeal I’m afraid.

Of course it’s not natural. It’s supernatural. Are you afraid of adventure?

 

[atheistgirl]

Of course it’s not natural. It’s supernatural. Are you afraid of adventure?

That round is yours



Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

Because after second thoughts, you would probably explain that you had gone delusional for a bit?

It’s not unheard of in the medical community



Sarah x

 

[inocente]

On recycling:

"Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?

So I saw that there is nothing better for a person than to enjoy their work, because that is their lot. For who can bring them to see what will happen after them?"

Ecclesiastes 3

 

[ynotzap]

Just because things are non-deterministic doesn’t mean science is reduced to mere opinion. There are good reasons for using stochastic approaches even in deterministic systems, and it may turn out that some processes are fundamentally stochastic in nature.

Your human experience certainly isn’t my human experience.

Even in a stochastic system there must be some objective credibility to even consider it a science. It can not be all subjective.
For example: If I flip a coin it is a guess to determine which side will land face up. But if one applies the objective laws of physics, and of math one can determine which side will land face up., by calculating the number of turns of the coin, the degree of the force exerted, at what angle to the coin, the distance traveled and the speed it moves, etc. So what appears as a random guess is really a lack of knowledge on the part of the one making the guess. So if the guess is right, we call it coincidence. We can not calculate or even be aware of all the forces involved we can’t do this spontaneously but it is possible to do it scientifically because there is some objective knowledge in physics and math that is determined There are laws that govern physics and math, universal laws that are found in all objective fields of knowledge,

Its by sharing our human experiences that we grow in knowledge and truth, no one person has a monopoly on truth, after all where did we get our knowledge if it wasn’t given to us by others, and I’m thankful for God and my fellow-man.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

Even in a stochastic system there must be some objective credibility to even consider it a science. It can not be all subjective.
For example: If I flip a coin it is a guess to determine which side will land face up. But if one applies the objective laws of physics, and of math one can determine which side will land face up., by calculating the number of turns of the coin, the degree of the force exerted, at what angle to the coin, the distance traveled and the speed it moves, etc. So what appears as a random guess is really a lack of knowledge on the part of the one making the guess. So if the guess is right, we call it coincidence. We can not calculate or even be aware of all the forces involved we can’t do this spontaneously but it is possible to do it scientifically because there is some objective knowledge in physics and math that is determined There are laws that govern physics and math, universal laws that are found in all objective fields of knowledge,

Its by sharing our human experiences that we grow in knowledge and truth, no one person has a monopoly on truth, after all where did we get our knowledge if it wasn’t given to us by others, and I’m thankful for God and my fellow-man.

The Uncertainty Principle states that there are things about the universe it is impossible to know perfectly. “Know” in this sense does not mean “the human mind could come to know it” or “attempts to know it will change it” or “if we had better equipment we could measure it.” It rather means that some things have this uncertainty as a fundamental property and there is no way anything could circumvent it. It even turns out that this sort of uncertainty has measurable effects, and those effects have been measured and accounted for in experiments where they are relevant.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

On recycling:

"Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?

So I saw that there is nothing better for a person than to enjoy their work, because that is their lot. For who can bring them to see what will happen after them?"

Ecclesiastes 3

That last sentence was a good one. And we know how the New Testament answered it!

 

[ynotzap]

On recycling:

"Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?

So I saw that there is nothing better for a person than to enjoy their work, because that is their lot. For who can bring them to see what will happen after them?"

Ecclesiastes 3

John 6; 22-71 "…unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live for ever…It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail, the words I have spoken to you are spirit and life… (quote: Jesus) read the whole passage. The truth is in the Faith which confirms what is said about the soul being spiritual from metaphysic.
Matter can not destroy the spiritual, and matter itself can not be destroyed.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

The Uncertainty Principle states that there are things about the universe it is impossible to know perfectly. “Know” in this sense does not mean “the human mind could come to know it” or “attempts to know it will change it” or “if we had better equipment we could measure it.” It rather means that some things have this uncertainty as a fundamental property and there is no way anything could circumvent it. It even turns out that this sort of uncertainty has measurable effects, and those effects have been measured and accounted for in experiments where they are relevant.

Indeed, we can know almost anything in the universe but we cannot know it perfectly or with utmost cognitive certainty. That is true of God as well as of the universe. And so we speak in colorful metaphors. The poet trumps the philosopher.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

Indeed, we can know almost anything in the universe but we cannot know it perfectly or with utmost cognitive certainty. That is true of God as well as of the universe. And so we speak in colorful metaphors. The poet trumps the philosopher.

If you are trying to draw some parallels between the uncertainty principle and God, you will fail. God neither changes nor has un-actualized potentials. God’s properties are not probability distributions.

The uncertainty principle does not imply inscrutability. It is possible to investigate and make conclusions about things subject to the uncertainty principle.

 

[ynotzap]

The Uncertainty Principle states that there are things about the universe it is impossible to know perfectly. “Know” in this sense does not mean “the human mind could come to know it” or “attempts to know it will change it” or “if we had better equipment we could measure it.” It rather means that some things have this uncertainty as a fundamental property and there is no way anything could circumvent it. It even turns out that this sort of uncertainty has measurable effects, and those effects have been measured and accounted for in experiments where they are relevant.

How can uncertainty be a fundamental property ,of something and not be able to be circumvented and then through experiment be able to be measured and have certain effects that can be accounted for and be relevant. It appears to be a contradiction. Can you give me an example?

I know the human mind can have uncertainty, it also is not omniscient. That if a thing exists it has objective reality that is what gives certainty to the human mind. When we label some things have uncertainty as a fundamental property, what things, physical things, spiritual things? If a thing didn’t exist the question of uncertainty never arises, uncertainty of what?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

God’s properties are not probability distributions.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Are the soul and the intellect one and the same?

Other than by revelation, how can we prove the soul exists and that it is immortal?

Dear friend

My own opine, is it can be answered simply, but may not be simple to understand. A quick look at my ideas -

Do you have thoughts and feelings and emotions? Do you have a mind and a heart? Yes, of course. This is your soul. Simple, but true.

Is the soul immortal. Gets a bit difficult to understand this perhaps. I think we are already in eternity. We know we choose heaven, hell, purgatory now. Many experience these partially in this life even.

I think we and our world are a thought in Gods Mind, like a Dream come True, if you will. God is eternal and outside time. God made this creation to have experiences. I think He lives vicariously through us and all myself. He does other things no doubt. Infinities and more?

But whilst God cannot have thoughts over time, He must have all His thought " NOW " He can, and I think He does make His thought of this world and us gradually unfold. We need this because we could not experience our whole existence, or eternity, all at once. That is obvious.

I think we only have a concept of time because we experience the phenonemon of change. This change gradually unfolding steadily gives us a feeling there is time. But there is no proof or real evidence time is an actual thing. It is just made up to measure change by us.

Have you noticed when things are great time flies faster, and when things are bad time seems to take forever, from a personal standpoint? It is because, in my humble opinion, that everything is out of balance, since we lost the Garden of Eden Paradisiacal state. In the beginning everything was just perfect and we had no concept of time, no good, average or bad times.

So the short end is we have already existed for eternity, as we exist truly in Gods eternal Mind, but we have not experienced our whole existence yet. Maybe this is one of the ways God occupies Himself in eternities. Who knows for sure.

There are many arguments intellectual, but in the end you just have to have faith. Those are my thoughts dear friends. Could be right, wrong, or a mixture. Hope this helps the discussion…

Adios…

Blessings & peace

 

[Aloysium]

. . . thoughts and feelings and emotions . . . a mind and a heart . . . . This is your soul. . . we are already in eternity. . . we and our world are a thought in Gods Mind, like a Dream come True . . . whilst God cannot have thoughts over time, He must have all His thought " NOW " He can, and I think He does make His thought of this world and us gradually unfold. . . we only have a concept of time because we experience the phenonemon of change. . . we have already existed for eternity, as we exist truly in Gods eternal Mind, but we have not experienced our whole existence yet. . .

Thank you for your thoughts. I hope I haven’t completely butchered your post. I focussed on some of the interesting points you make, wanting to add :twocents::

I cannot separate my soul from my physical being. Thoughts, feelings and emotions, while in themselves belong to a mental and spiritual “dimension”, are at the same time in union with physical processes, a myriad of neurobiochemical events.
This soul, however, existing as it does in eternity - always now, cannot be destroyed along with the corruption of the body. I will know what it means to be disembodied, but not yet.
However, the fact that we are not some strand in a single soup of infinite being points to the existence of our individual soul.

Free will is an attribute of the soul that is reflected in our meeting here and now.
At this very point in time, what is past is fixed as the result of our choices, the future undetermined by what we have not yet done.
This “now”, albeit finite, is undefined, having no borders, no start or finish, but containing change, the progression of history.
God’s Now contains all these moments in which we participate, in His eternal creation of the world.
Free will generates the particular moment in which the person finds himself in space and time; or is it that the particular moment generates free will?. Maybe they are the same thing - our soul

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Dear Aloysium,

You make some great points. I will offer my 1 cent further if it’s ok? I personally think that in this creation there are only the spiritual, diff types of spirit though. The physical is only a different type and varying degree of the spiritual, in my humble opine, if I am right. All this being thought or dream in Gods Mind, to simplify it as God is not Mind but I call Him oft the Unknown Unknowable, then thoughts and dreams are spiritual.

Body and soul are one, but can be separated. Because they are diff types of spirit. Same as heart and mind are spirit, but diff types of spirit, and they are one. I think the fall caused division in man; otherwise he would be a composite complete in itself, of a living soul.

Perhaps we believe the physical is different ton the spiritual because of the supposed properties of solidity and impassibility, but in reality even science is questioning the nature of the physical now. When you study solid physical objects at a sub-atomic level for instance, there is mostly space and / or air there. Why can’t we just put a pin through it, at least sometimes it should work?

This is a miraculous world and science is even starting to realize this. Look at the particle being in two places at once here reuters.com/article/2012/10/09/us-nobel-physics-quantum-idUSBRE8980V620121009 Also, we see all through history the miraculous is real and occurs every day. I believe the nature of this world is miraculous, and mankind is messing it up with the ignorant abuse of his free will, using his miraculous faith and prayer incorrectly.

Jesus more or less said two things, “ whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it and it will be yours”, and, “ if you had faith as small as a mustard seed you would say to the mountain move, and it would move “.

People believe everything on faith when it comes down to it, not just religious faith; it is the normal modus operandi for all human belief. You cannot prove anything absolutely, even if you touch or see it. You could be dreaming, hallucinating, an alien having a fantasy. You get the picture?

And with prayer, it is essentially communication with God. Everyone and everything in this creation is continually communicating with God in various and varied ways. I think we are stuffing things up too much now especially. If this is understood you see why the world, and humanity in general, is such a mess.

Miracles, when true ones – good ones of God, restore reality. Lepers are cured, same with cancer, the dead rise. And plenty of Saints have raised the dead back to life, not just Jesus. Sickness and death are illusory too.

We lost reality when we lost the Garden of Eden and thus state of being for our world and selves. Salvation history is about getting back at the Tree of Life, Jesus, in order to get reality back.

I personally think in the end we will have our world recreated into Eden again and combined with Heaven, the Book of Revelation calls it the “ New Heavenly Jerusalem “.

Free will is not what people think. We only have freedom to do Gods Will, hence the loss of reality. The supposed freedom people have, to be evil or go against Gods Will for instance, is an illusion. We have put ourselves outside reality with this. We become more and more reality the more and better we do Gods Will. Like we see with Saints restoring even the dead back to reality miraculously, by bringing them back to life.

Man is not free in the way he thinks as it stands, you cannot do anything you like at all, common sense reveals this, but the ability to go against Gods Will for the present, is really just man malfunctioning. See it like this perhaps, if you damage an atom it will still be an atom, but it will not function properly. In order to do Gods Will it must function as a normal atom. The only reason it seems to go against Gods will is it is damaged. Fallen humanity is damaged, and we have damaged our whole world.

In Eden when we only had Adam and Eve their miraculous faith and prayer, which Jesus speaks of as quoted earlier, contained the totality of miraculous faith and prayer in our world, and made it very powerful in messing things up. I think if there were several billion people and only two might or did stuff up, it might be different.

Human life is about experiences in my way of thinking. If we already experienced all eternity, life would have no point for us. God wants an eternal infinite experience in and through us too. We get prophecies about future events such as in Holy Writ or the testimony of Saints. We are to learn from the past, and plan for the future, but live NOW.

The only reason why the future being unknown and mysterious to us is a potential worry (to say the least), is because of the fallen state. We are supposed to be intoxicated with delight at thoughts of what is to come. Not dread the unknown as many, if not all do.

In the beginning it was sheer ecstatic blissful perfection that would just get better. But the future is so oft bleak or even hellish now. Otherwise there would not be considerations about past, present, future. We would be totally perfectly happy NOW, and if it stayed as NOW forever we would still be just as happy.

Things are messed up temporarily unfortunately though. Very deep questions. No doubt we’ll find out when we meet God. I pray it is a happy meeting. These are my personal thoughts. Others will have their own, and fine. I may be right, wrong, or a mix. Glad to chat though…

Hope this helps the discussion for all:thumbsup:

Blessings & peace

 

[Amandil]

OK, aside from The Argument from the Soul’s Ability to Objectify the Body, you have this:

The Antimaterialist Self-Contradiction Argument.

A computer is not reliable if it has been programmed by chance rather by rational design(e.g. hailstones falling at random on a keyboard).

The human brain and nervous system are a computer. They may be much more, but they are not less than a computer. So the human brain is not reliable if it has been programmed by mere chance.

But if materialism is true, if the soul is only the brain, if there is no spirit, no human soul and no God, then the brain has been programmed by mere chance. All the programming our brains have received, through heredity(genetics) and environment(society), is ultimately only unintelligent, undersigned, random chance, brute facts, physical causes, not logical reasons.

Therefore materialism cannot be true. It refutes itself, It destroys its own credentials. If the brain is nothing but blind atoms, we have no reason to trust it when it tells us about anything, including itself and atoms. Thus, if there is nothing but atoms, we have no reason to believe that there is noting but atoms.

If materialism is not true, this means there is immaterial reality too. And that immaterial reality-usually called spirit or soul-need not be subject to the laws of material reality, including the law of mortality.

(For a more extended and adequate treatment of this argument, see C.S. Lewis, Miracles, chpt 3.)

Handbook of Christian Apologetics, pgs 244-245