How do we teach girls to truly respect themselves?

[The_Old_Maid]

We had a similar discussion on NarniaWeb (page 10 of the Wuv, Twue Wuv, and Mawwiage thread).

It gets to Modesty Culture and “mangst” about the middle of the page, but I recommend reading the whole thing.

 

[MomaMary8]

My goal in raising my daughters is teach them and give them a deep sense of being a daughter of God. This may sound trite to some, but when you delve into filial piety, you witness and experience a deep and profound respect of who you are. You are not just any person, but a beloved child, created by our Heavenly Father. When women experience this, it brings them to a new level of awareness. The New Testament has wonderful examples of women encountering the love of Jesus and how deeply it affected them. Mary Magdalene, the woman at the well, and the woman hemoraging all encountered Jesus and were drawn closer to Him. It gave them an inner awareness of the beauty of their creation. In my own life it makes me aware that even my small actions are enough for Our God and I need no worldly validation of my work as a mother to value what I do. Thankfully, it also comes with a dash of humility because this awareness gives the glory to God.

So far so good. I have two beautiful teenage daughters who love God more than any young man.

 

[Xantippe]

One thing I’ve learned is that the ideas of selflessness and self-sacrifice can be abused by a manipulator. I think young Christian women especially are often taught to put others first in a way that is not always good.

Right.

 

[Anglewannabe]

. It was very easy to fall for the first guy who told me I was pretty, even if he had no respect for my boundaries and often ridiculed my interests. .

With all due respect, this seems like a self-esteem issue, or should I say low self-esteem issue. It doesn’t matter what a church teaches, a woman with high self-esteem doesn’t fall for the first compliment

 

[Xantippe]

With all due respect, this seems like a self-esteem issue, or should I say low self-esteem issue. It doesn’t matter what a church teaches, a woman with high self-esteem doesn’t fall for the first compliment

Self-esteem is not unrelated to self-respect.

 

[Anglewannabe]

Self-esteem is not unrelated to self-respect.

ah! I did not realize that

 

[EasterJoy]

With all due respect, this seems like a self-esteem issue, or should I say low self-esteem issue. It doesn’t matter what a church teaches, a woman with high self-esteem doesn’t fall for the first compliment

The difficult thing is that self-esteem or self-concept is not a one-dimensional thing. A woman can have very good boundaries at work or with her friends and not know how to make boundaries in an intimate relationship. The same goes for men, too. The other thing is that people will sacrifice themselves to a family or spousal relationship. We all know, too, that there are couples who know how to draw boundaries with each other who somehow allow their children to walk all over them! The whole landscape of “boundaries” can be quite different in romantic and familial settings, when the person violating your boundaries is someone for whom you would sacrifice life itself.

People who are good at drawing boundaries outside their families can also have family-of-origin issues that keep them from doing the same when it comes to intimate relationships. If your mother and father did not seem to have this thing called “boundaries,” you may think that this is not something that has a place in romantic relationships, just as you may not know how a couple works out real differences of opinion if your parents never let you know how that happens or never model how it is done in a positive way. If all you know is that you don’t want to be like your parents, that doesn’t mean you know how you DO want to be.

 

[Allegra]

I think fathers play a big role in this, by how they interact with their daughters for sure, but maybe especially how daughters see them treat other women, especially their mothers.

Absolutely! The best person to teach a girl to respect herself is her father and the best way for him to teach her is by example. She is watching how he respects her mother and other women.

 

[LongingSoul]

Originally Posted by DarkLight View Post
One thing I’ve learned is that the ideas of selflessness and self-sacrifice can be abused by a manipulator. I think young Christian women especially are often taught to put others first in a way that is not always good.

True scenario. I observed that dynamic in the context of marriage breakdown many times in my volunteer work experience over lots of years. That dynamic rarely ends well these days. Either the womans love and faithfulness dies or her spirit dies.

 

[SilverLight]

Fair enough - I was thinking in terms of modesty of dress. I do think that it’s important to watch how we teach women to cover themselves. Not showing off your body is important, but it is also quite easy to slide into blaming women for men not wanting to control themselves. Even once I became Catholic I got a lot of that mentality. (E.g. complaining about harassment and getting the inevitable “well what were you wearing” - like that excuses how men act.)

Yes I have seen people say women have to cover up because it will tempt men. I know guys who can look at a stick and get aroused for some reason or another.

How in the world is it anyone’s fault if someone else gets aroused or tempted? You could be walking down the street and a guy looks at you. That’s not something anyone can control even if you try really hard.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

To the OP: An interesting and very relevant question. I can only speak from a guy’s perspective but hopefully I can contribute something. I have seen both the liberal and traditionalist sides of the equation and I have come to the conclusion that neither side has it right. Obviously if a fifteen (or for that matter a twenty-five) year old girl comes to mass wearing black leggings or a miniskirt then she is not only dressing in a provocative fashion but is also demonstrating a lack of respect for the real presence. I doubt anyone on this forum would disagree.

On the other hand I believe that many traditional Catholics, or at least the ones that I have come into contact with, have a view of modesty that is just a reaction to our oversexed culture. The overwhelming majority of the women at the Latin mass that I attended growing up were in what my dad dubbed “the blue jumper crowd.” The name accurately described their tastes in clothes. It seemed that these women, and by extension their daughters, wanted to make themselves look as plain and unattractive as possible, as if dressing modestly and dressing tastefully were mutually exclusive. I think ‘tasteful’ is the important word. Women shouldn’t dress like sluts, but I think they should take pride in themselves. How can they have any self-respect if they do not take pride in the way that they dress and the way they carry themselves? My two cents.

 

[DarkLight]

One thing I think - us ladies, especially the younger ones, want to be pretty. And this is perfectly natural and good. It’s important to teach young women that they can be pretty and accentuate their features without simply letting it all hang out. And it is important to hear that God made you beautiful and that’s a good thing to be celebrated.

 

[Just_Lurking]

Another book recommendation:

Christian Men Who Hate Women: Healing Hurting Relationships

 

[Bruised_Reed]

DarkLight, I think there are gaps when it comes to teaching self-respect. Yes, it should come from parents but many parents don’t have the tools to do so, never mind the ones who don’t care. One idea that I haven’t seen suggested is self-respect that is more universal. Discussion about boundaries or modesty having to do just with the opposite sex leads to some of the skewed ideas out there. But if one is taught self-respect (boundaries, modesty, etc.) with all, no matter what their genders or ages, it might keep it from becoming about how to be attractive to men, or whatever.

Discussion of bullying, shaming, etc. should be talked about but I think the focus should be on healthy relationships and what they look like. And I agree with what others have said about media. The media is the worst offender when it comes to skewing where self-worth comes from and what relationships should look like. It’s always about drama and real, healthy relationships, conversations don’t look or sound like what is portrayed in media/entertainment.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

One thing I think - us ladies, especially the younger ones, want to be pretty. And this is perfectly natural and good. It’s important to teach young women that they can be pretty and accentuate their features without simply letting it all hang out. And it is important to hear that God made you beautiful and that’s a good thing to be celebrated.

There isn’t anything wrong with looking pretty or wanting to be pretty. The problem I see is with the narrow definition of beauty that some have. Again, it’s the media constantly informs us of what that is.

Grooming beyond being clean and healthy (makeup, hair, clothing and accessories) should be an extra, to enhance, express oneself, or put on a different role, and I will emphasize, fun. I am okay not wearing makeup but I really enjoy experimenting with different looks (even if no one else ever sees them). I wore my hair in a classic cut, no color or highlights, not even bangs or layers for a couple of decades; now I’m enjoying different cuts and fun colors (pink, blue), but keeping my clothing simple, mostly black or grey and, yes, modest.

 

[edwest2]

To the OP: An interesting and very relevant question. I can only speak from a guy’s perspective but hopefully I can contribute something. I have seen both the liberal and traditionalist sides of the equation and I have come to the conclusion that neither side has it right. Obviously if a fifteen (or for that matter a twenty-five) year old girl comes to mass wearing black leggings or a miniskirt then she is not only dressing in a provocative fashion but is also demonstrating a lack of respect for the real presence. I doubt anyone on this forum would disagree.

On the other hand I believe that many traditional Catholics, or at least the ones that I have come into contact with, have a view of modesty that is just a reaction to our oversexed culture. The overwhelming majority of the women at the Latin mass that I attended growing up were in what my dad dubbed “the blue jumper crowd.” The name accurately described their tastes in clothes. It seemed that these women, and by extension their daughters, wanted to make themselves look as plain and unattractive as possible, as if dressing modestly and dressing tastefully were mutually exclusive. I think ‘tasteful’ is the important word. Women shouldn’t dress like sluts, but I think they should take pride in themselves. How can they have any self-respect if they do not take pride in the way that they dress and the way they carry themselves? My two cents.

I dated a woman who “knew how to carry herself” but how many today even know what that means? She walked like she had a book on her head, she sat like she was posing for a painting. But it was all ingrained in her at a young age. When she was about 21 or so, she had all these qualities and more and none of it was forced or artificial. She also had poise. And measured self-confidence.

I realized shortly after we started dating, that I knew exactly what to do and what to say when I was with her. It was truly remarkable. In terms of dress, she had taste, not pride. A woman used to know what outfits were suitable based on her body shape and facial features. Today, my closest lady friend reminds me of how, regardless of her remarkable figure, a woman ought to dress - with taste and in clothes that are attractive but which did not inappropriately overemphasize anything.

Ed

 

[SuperLuigi]

Agree 100%. Wholesome, dignified, respectful… What’s up with that? Shameful? Guilt? Appropriate?

The media is generally not your friend and it usually depicts really bad guy-girl behavior like it’s nothing.

One cable channel uses the line “No Limits.” to describe itself. Uh, Uh. That’s got to go to full stop. I would never take a girl to see 99.9% of the movies produced every year.

Ed

I second that!

 

[Sarcelle]

There seems to be two schools of thought when it comes to modesty.

We all know that immodesty is thought of as the “look at me, I’m a sex object” message. Modesty’s takes two forms. One is the acknowledgment that we have dignity and dress appropriately without any exhibitionism at all. This is more in line with Church teaching. What I see mostly of modesty teaching, especially the Fundamentalist mindset, is the definition of modesty more in line with the “Don’t look at me, I’m a sex object.” Frumpiness is a result.

 

[Xantippe]

There seems to be two schools of thought when it comes to modesty.

We all know that immodesty is thought of as the “look at me, I’m a sex object” message. Modesty’s takes two forms. One is the acknowledgment that we have dignity and dress appropriately without any exhibitionism at all. This is more in line with Church teaching. What I see mostly of modesty teaching, especially the Fundamentalist mindset, is the definition of modesty more in line with the “Don’t look at me, I’m a sex object.” Frumpiness is a result.

That’s an interesting point.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

There seems to be two schools of thought when it comes to modesty.

We all know that immodesty is thought of as the “look at me, I’m a sex object” message. Modesty’s takes two forms. One is the acknowledgment that we have dignity and dress appropriately without any exhibitionism at all. This is more in line with Church teaching. What I see mostly of modesty teaching, especially the Fundamentalist mindset, is the definition of modesty more in line with the “Don’t look at me, I’m a sex object.” Frumpiness is a result.

I love it! Your definitions of immodesty vs Fundamentalist modesty should be framed and hung on a wall!