How do women feel about chivalrious men?

[Larowyn]

Your points are all over the place, no one can make heads or tails of what you’re trying to say. I said I was guessing about your high school experience being the issue behind your bitter outlook on chivalry. Learn to read.
However, you have tried to make a point about something, and failed. You made no point other than “If I told you ___ you would call me a liar”
You make no sense.

I make plenty of sense to those who take the time to read. Let me spell it out for you.

You wrote the following:

"You obviously underestimate the resolve, and adaptability of shy people.

Once he starts asking, it will become easier to overcome the shyness that had plagued him. Regardless of the answer. "

To which I replied:

“And if I told you what my Catholic high school experience was like in regards to girls, you would undoubtedly call me a liar because it would completely wreck your assumption about the resolve of shy people. You’d also think I was lying because Catholics seem to believe that Catholic schools are the ultimate in education and its faculties can do no wrong.”

Read carefully, boy.

How many times have I attacked you? You must be in a really bad mood to be reading what I am writing and thinking I’m attacking you. If I were attacking, you’d know it.

Your refusal to even try to understand what I have to say and your willingness to twist my words around to suit you could be construed as hostile behavior.

However, you have brought no particular support for your argument. You just think things should be the way you want because you want them that way.

You, sirrah, are quite mistaken.

Showing courtesy during a date is not obsolete.
You’re basically saying being sweet and charitable to a woman is wrong!
Why?

If you believe I think that, then you are in sad shape indeed. It is idiocy like this that has ruined this thread and turned it into a “hey let’s pick on Larowyn” thread. I have explained time and time again what I mean and you completely refuse to accept that there is even a slight chance that maybe I am not advocating being rude and discourteous. Please leave the forums at once.

I’ll admit some women don’t deserve it, but it IS considered polite to do so.
If you don’t think its acceptable for you to pay for a simple dinner date, then I believe you will be spending many quiet dinners by yourself at home.

Once again, because you cannot and will not read: the bill should by default fall to the person who asked for the date unless some other agreement or arrangement is made. If a woman asked me out I would expect her to at least spring for the bill and consider it rude and disrespectful to force the bill onto me. I would most likely offer to pay half or all for the first date even if the woman asked me out, but not so hastily so as to make her not have the opportunity to offer to pay.

It must be a sick world that you live in.

People like you make it even more disgusting.

But think what you want. I’ll continue to open car doors, and pay for meals when I go out on dates. Its because I consider it my responsibility. And it is my honor to do so.

Yeah because you are a total boy scout.

Learn to read.

I can and do read, but what you’ve said made me wish I never learned to do so.

I am a regular here a CAF, and I do believe my opinon on this is shared with the majority. You are the minority here, and your argument is therefore ineffective.

Please just stop posting. You are done here.

Anyways, I DO hold door open for others, including guys. But usually those guys will be kind enough to take my place at the door.

You said you only held doors open for random girls.

I hold doors open for random girls at stores,

Oops, did I catch you in a lie? Saying that you hold the door for random girls at stores implies that you only hold the door for some girls and not all of them or anyone else.

Your views on chivalry are again flawed.
Take a look here and see that your definition of chivalry is incorrect.

Oh, I’m sorry that I failed to include “dexterity of arms.” I practice with my battle axe on Tuesdays and Thursdays, my sword on Mondays and Wednesdays, and my morningstar on Fridays and Saturdays. I also have a well-husbanded warhorse.

Where did I say that chivalry had nothing to do with being courteous and respectful? I’ve said here many times that chivalry had to do with respect, integrity, and attentiveness. Woo woo! All aboard the clue train! Last stop is you!

Therefore now we are arguing about the need for chivalry, not the meaning.

I’m trying to make it clear that chivalry should have nothing to do with feminine entitlement and everything to do with common courtesy and respect. Apparently you’re just trying to impress the type of women who like pushover men who will do anything just for the woman to cast a glance in their direction every now and then.

Chivalry isn’t dead to anyone but jerks like you.
Grow up, kid.

Chivalry isn’t dead to me, but you certainly are, boy.

 

[funnyyetsavvy]

I think the forum rules have been breached.

CONDUCT RULES
Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of personal attacks, threats, and crude or sexually-explicit language, rude comments and innuendo.
Do not use abbreviated terms such as “Prots” or “radtrad” etc. that may be offensive to the group to which they refer. Full names are best.
Do not use character substitutions in proper names, such as “Amerikkkans” or “Demonrats” or “Repubicans” etc.
Inappropriate or offensive graphics, links, or profile entries are not permitted.
Messages should be short. Do not post lengthy replies (especially replies that consist largely of quotes from an earlier message).

I’m tired of certain attacks on this and other boards. Please follow the rules.

 

[spellinggirl]

My best friend is a guy, and I consider him the most chivalrous guy I’ve ever met. He is so respectful of me and everyone else! He always lets me go first through doors, holds doors for me and anyone else, says “sir” and “ma’am,” etc.

We actually learned about chivalry in Social Studies this year and I called him my “knight in shining armor” ever since!

Whoever said chivalry was dead would be blown away if they met him! I’m so proud of him, seriously!

 

[Consecrated]

This is what I’ve been trying to say all along but people got angry at me and said that I’d never marry.

I *think *it was the way you said it, dear.

 

[Belgarion]

I make plenty of sense to those who take the time to read. Let me spell it out for you.

You wrote the following:

"You obviously underestimate the resolve, and adaptability of shy people.

Once he starts asking, it will become easier to overcome the shyness that had plagued him. Regardless of the answer. "

To which I replied:

“And if I told you what my Catholic high school experience was like in regards to girls, you would undoubtedly call me a liar because it would completely wreck your assumption about the resolve of shy people. You’d also think I was lying because Catholics seem to believe that Catholic schools are the ultimate in education and its faculties can do no wrong.”

Read carefully, boy.

It still makes no sense. You’re just talking about how your experience would ruin my assumption on the adaptability of shy people. So what?
You seem to assume that I have no idea anyways. Even though I confessed that I am a shy guy. You are contradicting logic and truth here.

Your refusal to even try to understand what I have to say and your willingness to twist my words around to suit you could be construed as hostile behavior.

Yawn
Twisting your words would be a huge stretch, don’t you think?

You, sirrah, are quite mistaken.

And you must be misrepresenting yourself then.

If you believe I think that, then you are in sad shape indeed. It is idiocy like this that has ruined this thread and turned it into a “hey let’s pick on Larowyn” thread. I have explained time and time again what I mean and you completely refuse to accept that there is even a slight chance that maybe I am not advocating being rude and discourteous. Please leave the forums at once.

Make me.
I have not breached forum conduct by trolling and causing trouble.
Everyone’s “picking on you” because you are asserting your flawed perspective with half-done arguments.

Once again, because you cannot and will not read: the bill should by default fall to the person who asked for the date unless some other agreement or arrangement is made. If a woman asked me out I would expect her to at least spring for the bill and consider it rude and disrespectful to force the bill onto me. I would most likely offer to pay half or all for the first date even if the woman asked me out, but not so hastily so as to make her not have the opportunity to offer to pay.

If she offered to, it may be acceptable, I’ll agree to that. However, my own honor and courtesy would make me spring for the bill first and at least attempt to convince her to allow me to pay it.

People like you make it even more disgusting.

I agree!
Wow, I can’t believe it! You sure showed me!

Yeah because you are a total boy scout.

Apparently. Though I attribute that to my upbringing. Thanx mom + Dad

I can and do read, but what you’ve said made me wish I never learned to do so.

If you’re going to keep rambling by posting useless comments, then do so a spam forum.

Please just stop posting. You are done here.

Not quite. Otherwise you’d be long gone.

You said you only held doors open for random girls.

Oops, did I catch you in a lie? Saying that you hold the door for random girls at stores implies that you only hold the door for some girls and not all of them or anyone else.

Aw, you caught me.
I can’t believe it!
I don’t recall saying I ONLY open doors for random girls, I was just offering an example.

Oh, I’m sorry that I failed to include “dexterity of arms.” I practice with my battle axe on Tuesdays and Thursdays, my sword on Mondays and Wednesdays, and my morningstar on Fridays and Saturdays. I also have a well-husbanded warhorse.

I was referring to the actions towards women. As you know, there are different meanings to certain words, and this topic is obviously referring to the courtesy towards women.
But if you want to take it to the dexterity with weapons, I can easily match that. I myself own 3 swords. I doubt your “chivalry” could match mine.

Where did I say that chivalry had nothing to do with being courteous and respectful? I’ve said here many times that chivalry had to do with respect, integrity, and attentiveness. Woo woo! All aboard the clue train! Last stop is you!

Heh, big talk from such a blind coward.
You’re contradicting yourself by whining about chivalry, then arguing for it. However, you are most certainly on the wrong topic here. Chivalry involved men being courteous to women. If this was a topic about dating etiquette, it would have said so somewhere. So techinically the clue train never reached you.

I’m trying to make it clear that chivalry should have nothing to do with feminine entitlement and everything to do with common courtesy and respect. Apparently you’re just trying to impress the type of women who like pushover men who will do anything just for the woman to cast a glance in their direction every now and then.

You are then arguing against the definition of the word, kid.
I’m not trying to impress anyone. I’m attempting to live out the charity Christ has asked me to live out.You’re obviously getting the wrong idea about honorable men…Suddenly if we treat women like the precious souls they are, we’re pushovers.

Chivalry isn’t dead to me, but you certainly are, boy.

I could take that as a threat.
Take your best shot, kid.
Come and get me!

 

[cecilia97]

Men and women are equal in all things and dating is no exception.

This, I believe, is why your ideas are not resonating on this thread. Men and women are NOT equal in ALL things. We are equal in dignity as humans.

My upper body strength will never equal a man’s strength.
A man’s ability to breast feed a child will never equal mine.

There are differences between men and women.

I fully understand that you feel men are taken advantage of when they have to pay for every date. And you make some good arguments but none good enough to convince me that we should change what is done in many parts of the world. It just makes me think you have not met the right girl, which is fine. But if you DID meet the girl of your dreams and were willing to follow her anywhere just to make a life with her, how would the price of a few dinners even factor into the equation? Wouldn’t you be glad to pay for a dinner or two if that’s what you had to do to get enough time with that perfect girl to talk and get to know her, to charm her and impress her with your conversation?

The most shocking thing about some of your posts, to me, is not that you think women should pay for some dates. Fine, OK. The shocking thing is that you seem to imply that women only go on dates to get free stuff. My goodness, what kind of women have you been meeting to give you that idea???

 

[ks60]

This is a sensitive topic for many, but I just wanted to ask. Some women feel that such men are degrading them. That’s just some of the things I’ve felt that other women believe. So how do you feel about these type of men (if their “chivalry” be sincere)?

I love it, and don’t feel that it’s degrading. I work with men, in construction. I don’t ask for special treatment on construction sites, but was very flattered when a man I was working with made sure that he got across the mud and back to the truck in time to open the door for me.

I hope that we all remember to show our appreciation when a man is considerate.

 

[Consecrated]

And if I told you what my Catholic high school experience was like in regards to girls, you would undoubtedly call me a liar because it would completely wreck your assumption about the resolve of shy people. You’d also think I was lying because Catholics seem to believe that Catholic schools are the ultimate in education and its faculties can do no wrong.

Belgarion’s homeschooled! (right?)

What has not yet been established is what being chivalrous pertains to. Most people here would have you believe that it involves the woman getting a free meal and expecting men to make the first move in initiating a date. I would have you believe that it involves both parties in a date having respect for each other and being attentive to each other and showing integrity, and has nothing to do with traditional gender roles.

How 'bout this… If there are certain behaviors (here in this thread and other places termed “chivalrous”) expected of gentlemen, there are also certain behaviors expected of ladies. Many of which you, Larowyn, describe… albeit somewhat-- uhhh —aggressively. And a gentleman deserves a lady, and vice versa.

What DOES have to do with traditional gender roles in many cases, is the way in which thoughtful, Christian behavior is acted out. Now, some of this may very well be cultural. But I think we would all agree that thoughtfulness and charity transcend culture, and anyone encountering those in their date would have to work hard to be offended.

I also disagree with the notion that men and women are equal in all ways. Yes, as people we are all of equal value in the eyes of God, and hopefully those around us. BUT men and women are *vastly *different in so many ways… one could almost say they are opposite. It is because of these differences (I leave you to meditate on what they are exactly yourselves ) that women, ladies, can and should expect differential treatment at the hands of prospective (and actual ) life partners who hopefully have a proper understanding of womanhood as perfectly exemplified in Mary and Holy Mother Church. Women also should be influenced in how they treat those prospective (and actual ) life partners by a proper understanding of manhood as perfectly exemplified in Jesus.

sorry if I go on and on… pet topic of mine, especially now as DH and I are raising our own tiny ladies and gentlemen. I’ve enjoyed this thread!

Also, I will say that chivalrous behavior can take on a different look after marriage than during courtship… the privileges of the sacrament being what they are! For instance, I don’t feel slighted by or distressed that my husband never remembers to open the car door for me anymore… because he shows his love, devotion, and respect in sooo many more intimate ways that were simply impossible before marriage (and I don’t just mean the marital act, people ) hehe and it’s a big joke between us when I offer to “pay” my share or foot the bill. I’m a stay-at-home-mom, and well, monetarily he foots the bill for everything.

 

[Belgarion]

Belgarion’s homeschooled! (right?)

Yep

How 'bout this… If there are certain behaviors (here in this thread and other places termed “chivalrous”) expected of gentlemen, there are also certain behaviors expected of ladies. Many of which you, Larowyn, describe… albeit somewhat-- uhhh —aggressively. And a gentleman deserves a lady, and vice versa.

What DOES have to do with traditional gender roles in many cases, is the way in which thoughtful, Christian behavior is acted out. Now, some of this may very well be cultural. But I think we would all agree that thoughtfulness and charity transcend culture, and anyone encountering those in their date would have to work hard to be offended.

I also disagree with the notion that men and women are equal in all ways. Yes, as people we are all of equal value in the eyes of God, and hopefully those around us. BUT men and women are *vastly *different in so many ways… one could almost say they are opposite. It is because of these differences (I leave you to meditate on what they are exactly yourselves ) that women, ladies, can and should expect differential treatment at the hands of prospective (and actual ) life partners who hopefully have a proper understanding of womanhood as perfectly exemplified in Mary and Holy Mother Church. Women also should be influenced in how they treat those prospective (and actual ) life partners by a proper understanding of manhood as perfectly exemplified in Jesus.

sorry if I go on and on… pet topic of mine, especially now as DH and I are raising our own tiny ladies and gentlemen. I’ve enjoyed this thread!

Also, I will say that chivalrous behavior can take on a different look after marriage than during courtship… the privileges of the sacrament being what they are! For instance, I don’t feel slighted by or distressed that my husband never remembers to open the car door for me anymore… because he shows his love, devotion, and respect in sooo many more intimate ways that were simply impossible before marriage (and I don’t just mean the marital act, people ) hehe and it’s a big joke between us when I offer to “pay” my share or foot the bill. I’m a stay-at-home-mom, and well, monetarily he foots the bill for everything.

Wonderfully put.
Though I’m sure he’ll find something wrong with women being stay-at-home moms…

 

[beckyann2597]

I am in California, and I don’t think there are any chivalrous men here (other than my husband and his dad!) even my brothers are cads! It turned out we have all girls, so there i not much I can do by way of raising chivalrous men, but I will raise my daughters to recognize good men. I always point out When a man doesn’t hold a door open for me or just sits there in a waiting room while I am struggling to juggle kids, bags, and a stroller! It is always shocking to me, but I would rather show my daughters that it is unacceptable rather than let it go.

 

[Consecrated]

Yep

Wonderfully put.
Though I’m sure he’ll find something wrong with women being stay-at-home moms…

Well, if he wants and if it satisfies his ideas of equality, I could give him a laundry list of all the things I do for DH in return. How 'bout it Larowyn?

PS Larowyn, if it seems like you keep getting picked on, it’s because we are sure that if we chip away long enough we’ll find your sense of humor underneath your armor of offensive defensiveness. C’mon… we know it’s there…

 

[Just_wondering]

This has been a very interesting thread so far, even with the conflicts and all. As for me, I love a chivalrous man. I believe there are certain standards of behaviour that are expected of a lady or a gentleman, and I like to know that the man I’m dating fulfills those expectations.

My standards of chivalry are these: able-bodied people should hold doors open for others, offer the elderly/pregnant women/injured people their seats on buses or subways, and offer to assist anybody who is obviously struggling. Men who offer seats to ladies get extra points. The driver unlocks the passenger’s door first, and the passenger returns the favour from inside the car. Whoever asks for the date pays for it, but if the other party insists then the inviter shouldn’t make a scene.

I’d like to reiterate the point someone made half a dozen pages back that a chivalrous man makes a woman feel protected. I agree with that. There’s something about a man who shows his thoughtfulness through his actions that reassures me that if we run into trouble, he’ll be there to protect me.

A few months ago, my boyfriend and his friends were walking me home late at night when a car full of guys jumped out with a tire iron and started a fight for no apparent reason. I have a black belt in Taekwondo, and am perfectly capable of defending myself against an attacker, but my boyfriend and his friends told me to back away and stay out of the fight. There is no way they would have allowed me to defend myself, and actually, even though I had the training and the physical strength, I felt relieved that my boyfriend and his friends wouldn’t let me do it. I felt safe knowing that these men would protect me.

As for Larowyn and the issue about women deserving to get a free meal simply because they’re women, well, it’s a tough issue. The generally accepted code of honour among men says that man should treat the woman, the first time at least. It’s not because she deserves a free meal, it’s because he wants to demonstrate his belief that she is worth a meal to him. Most women come prepared to pay for their own share, or even the whole thing, but culturally most women accept the premise that the man should be allowed to pay for the first date. Not forced, but allowed.

Most women I know follow the accepted script: he invites, she accepts, she orders a modest meal, the bill arrives, she offers to pay, he declines, she offers again, he insists, he pays, they move on to a quieter place for a chat, they order drinks or coffee, the bill arrives, she offers to pay, he accepts, she pays, they leave and thank each other for the delightful evening. Neither party feels affronted or taken advantage of in this exchange. I’ve known a few women who order the most expensive item on the menu and expect the men to pay, but they are few and far between, and tend to be the kind of girls who hang around in bars accepting drinks from strangers trying to get something for nothing. Not the kind of girls you want anyway.

 

[Image_of_God]

I’ve just been lurking around and reading what you have to say. I agree with Just wondering that this thread has been so fun to read (despite the conflict), I hope it continues.

If the woman asks you out, maybe she should pay. But the question would be, why would she have to ask?

 

[dakotagirl]

Chivalry IS adorable. Not everyone gets to live in Texas though Just sayin’…

 

[elts1956]

Courtesy is always attractive.

Of course, it works both ways. When the man holds the door open for the woman, she doesn’t just sail on through it - she catches it on her hand and lets the man come in behind her, without letting it close on him.

And when the man opens the car door for the woman, she doesn’t just sit there in the car - she leans over and opens his side, so that he can get in easily, as well.

AND I have even held doors open for my male counterparts at work. I had one friend/co-worker that I would banter with, “You first”. “No, you first”, “No, no, you first”. It’s called being courteous.

 

[elts1956]

Courtesy is always attractive.

Of course, it works both ways. When the man holds the door open for the woman, she doesn’t just sail on through it - she catches it on her hand and lets the man come in behind her, without letting it close on him.

And when the man opens the car door for the woman, she doesn’t just sit there in the car - she leans over and opens his side, so that he can get in easily, as well.

Yeah, and being taken advantage of for the sake of love is pretty emasculating too. Where is it written that women have to get free meals just because they are women? I think it’s disrespectful for a woman to expect the man to pay for the dates, especially if the woman is the one who asks the man for a date. If I decide to start dating a girl regularly and she gets mad because I’d like to go dutch, then she can find some other sucker.

Young man? Or old man? Either way, what is making you so bitter toward women? Or is it a sign of your insecurity? A woman likes a gentle man who shows his masculinity and strength at the appropriate times. All I see from most of your latest posts is defensiveness. Some woman must have hurt you very badly for you to display such distrust of the opposite sex.:ehh:

 

[elts1956]

And if I told you what my Catholic high school experience was like in regards to girls, you would undoubtedly call me a liar because it would completely wreck your assumption about the resolve of shy people. You’d also think I was lying because Catholics seem to believe that Catholic schools are the ultimate in education and its faculties can do no wrong.

What has not yet been established is what being chivalrous pertains to. Most people here would have you believe that it involves the woman getting a free meal and expecting men to make the first move in initiating a date. I would have you believe that it involves both parties in a date having respect for each other and being attentive to each other and showing integrity, and has nothing to do with traditional gender roles.

My goodness, do we indeed have a FEMINIST among us?

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

This is a sensitive topic for many, but I just wanted to ask. Some women feel that such men are degrading them. That’s just some of the things I’ve felt that other women believe. So how do you feel about these type of men (if their “chivalry” be sincere)?

LOVE 'EM.

Want moar!

 

[stelline]

I think chivalry in men is great! Too bad there is such a lack of it seen nowadays.

 

[Belgarion]

I think chivalry in men is great! Too bad there is such a lack of it seen nowadays.

There are way too many who lack respect and courtesy. My own dad seems to frown upon the idea of chivalry. Though he is a generous and good person, he says “Equality is a-”…well…you know…

His point was that some women want to be just like men, so why should they avoid paying the bill because they’re women?
They want to be equal, pay the bill.
Now, it makes sense, and I’ll agree that those women who try so hard to prove that they are equal to men, are just as bad as men without chivalry.
Women don’t seem to realize how important they are. And believe me, when you’re 19, never had a girlfriend and haven’t even been out on a date before, you tend to look at women (and the time spent with them) as precious gifts. They were made by God just as men were. Treating women with respect like chivalry dictates is natural.
In fact, aren’t we called to treat fellow men the same way? (with charity, not dating with courtesy!!! )