How Do You Charitably Complain About Music?

[YADA]

Okay, so here are my :twocents: ,

I am not sure exactly how the music is chosen in your parish but they must have a process … find out what that process is by showing an interest in the liturgy and asking how, by whom and when is the music selected that is used at mass and volunteer to join that group … then attend the meetings and participate …

I say this because this is how it works in my parish [which is a large urban parish - ergo more resources but every parish has a process even if it is just the musicians that volunteer and “run their selections by father”]…

we have a paid staff person whose responsibility is liturgy in gennera. This person arranges for and works with the pastoral associate in training liturgical ministers [Musicians - instrumental, singers and cantors, Ushers, EMHC, altar servers, etc]. They specifically deal with the musicians … they have a committee who selects the music used at all the masses … this committee is comprised of the musicians [at least some of them] interested Joe and Jane Doe parishioners and this person. RIght now our musicians are selecting and training for the Advent and Christmas Season … In October / November they will be focused on Lent … January they are planning the Easter Liturgies.

They study the documents of Vatican II, read the scriptures for every Sunday and study the music in light of church teaching and also the guidelines of the USCCB.

Our cantors attend training twice a year in addition to the practices each week … they have three day work shops four times a year …

Some people will hate the music and others will love it … all at the same Mass … some people like this cantor others don’t, they like this other cantor better …

But few will put forth more effort then the complaint … and when they find out about the time and effort that goes into the process … it all begins to sound better because they can’t be bothered …

So my advice … don’t complain charitably or otherwise … pick up your organ, piano, guitar or flute … OR … warm up your vocal cords and participate beyond the Sunday Mass … become one of the volunteers who do … suggest other music and then work to make it happen yourself …

Remember God says to “lift up your voice and make a joyful noise unto the Lord” … it does not say your voice must be harmonious, melodious or in tune, just joyful …

David danced [yes - danced] before the lord playing harp and flute … plus I recall they had trumpet blasts and drums …

Be a part of the solution

 

[Sarabande]

Sarabande, I hate to tell you this, but, people will opine with their pocketbooks. If they don’t like something, they will withhold their contributions. It’s like an ecclesiasitcal Boston Tea Party, without the tea. I know of folks who will withhold participating in the Diocesan Catholic Sharing Appeal because they don’t agree with the way the funds are being handled.

Withholding money, while not the best approach, usually gains the quickest results because it is an attention-grabber.

I know this is very true.

One of the things which I don’t like about the approach is that it can achieve opposite results as well as hurt a parish financially. A parish might be doing a wonderful job with the music ministry, using well-trained musicians and directors and appropriate music, then a group of people who has money and doesn’t know much about music or what sacred music entails or simply has bad taste comes in and threaten with their pocketbooks. So, they get rid of the current musicians unless they comply with the changes and end up with a bad music program - all because of a group of people with bigger pocketbooks than the other parishioners.

So, although I think feedback and charitable complaining is fine for the music ministry (It could be very good for other “causes”, but I don’t think for this), I don’t believe in withholding money to achieve my desires for what I believe to be a good music ministry. Although, I will give extra money to a parish which is providing an excellent music program because I want to see it succeed and because I know how much time, money and effort goes into it.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

I know this is very true.

One of the things which I don’t like about the approach is that it can achieve opposite results as well as hurt a parish financially. A parish might be doing a wonderful job with the music ministry, using well-trained musicians and directors and appropriate music, then a group of people who has money and doesn’t know much about music or what sacred music entails or simply has bad taste comes in and threaten with their pocketbooks. So, they get rid of the current musicians unless they comply with the changes and end up with a bad music program - all because of a group of people with bigger pocketbooks than the other parishioners.

So, although I think feedback and charitable complaining is fine for the music ministry (It could be very good for other “causes”, but I don’t think for this), I don’t believe in withholding money to achieve my desires for what I believe to be a good music ministry. Although, I will give extra money to a parish which is providing an excellent music program because I want to see it succeed and because I know how much time, money and effort goes into it.

That is what happens more often than not.

Not only do most of the people in the pews prefer garbage - they DEMAND it.

 

[pnewton]

In places where one or more parishes are close by, people do sometimes vote with their feet. When the people go, so does the money they give. Alas, most of those who would do that need to emulate Jesus, who came to serve, not to be served.

 

[KenEOTE]

Well said pnewton.

 

[JRKH]

In places where one or more parishes are close by, people do sometimes vote with their feet. When the people go, so does the money they give. Alas, most of those who would do that need to emulate Jesus, who came to serve, not to be served.

Yes Jesus came to serve, but He also came to give us the Hard Truth whether we want to hear it or not. Apparently some music directors really need to hear some hard truths
We should be tolerant of the efforts our parishes put into Liturgy. We should also recognize that many of these people are either not paid much, or not paid at all.
However, if the decisions regarding the liturgy, music. etc are too contrary to a person’s spirituality and their is an alternative, “voting with your feet” by going down the street is a perfectly legitimate option.

Peace
James

 

[benedictgal]

In places where one or more parishes are close by, people do sometimes vote with their feet. When the people go, so does the money they give. Alas, most of those who would do that need to emulate Jesus, who came to serve, not to be served.

Of course, Jesus also told the apostles that if one tiown rejected them, they would have shake the dust from that area off their feet and walk over to the next village. I think that the same concept would apply here, as well.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

Of course, Jesus also told the apostles that if one tiown rejected them, they would have shake the dust from that area off their feet and walk over to the next village. I think that the same concept would apply here, as well.

I realize what you are saying, but it never works the way you want it to.

My experience has been that in a given area, parish A hires a good music director who raises the bar. Organ and choral music is used. Many people don’t get the same “warm fuzzy” feeling from this and want the old way back. Parishes B, C, & D are all within 5 miles. There is a mass exodus to those parishes where people can get liturgy “that feeds their spirituality”, nevermind what is correct. The pastor of parish A says “We need to do something” and tells the director to tone down their program and make it more ****** so that people feel they are getting what they need and not a “stuffy” music program that is “over everyone’s heads” - both adjectives I’ve heard to describe my music program.

 

[pnewton]

However, if the decisions regarding the liturgy, music. etc are too contrary to a person’s spirituality and their is an alternative, “voting with your feet” by going down the street is a perfectly legitimate option.

Peace
James

Nothing is more conducive to spiritual growth than serving others in Jesus’ name. Yes, we must be able to worship God in spirit and truth, but the grace we receive through the sacraments is so that we may serve. I understand finding a parish conducive to worship is the top priority for many. But the first priority, in order to be where God wants us, is where we may best serve Him.

 

[benedictgal]

Nothing is more conducive to spiritual growth than serving others in Jesus’ name. Yes, we must be able to worship God in spirit and truth, but the grace we receive through the sacraments is so that we may serve. I understand finding a parish conducive to worship is the top priority for many. But the first priority, in order to be where God wants us, is where we may best serve Him.

But, remember what the First Commandment is. Hnnor the Lord, thy God. Honoring God means giving him the proper worship that is due to Him. If parishioners have a legitimate complaint against the quality, or lack thereof, then, it is their right to go to another parish.

Before we can serve the people, we need to serve God, first and foremost. Before we can begin to love our neighbors, we need to love God above all else.

The first priority, then, is to worship God because that is the first commandment. All of the rest flow from that commandment.

 

[Newbie2]

**
I have two problems though. First, I feel like no one who has any power over the music we sing would even care.**

If you were to only join the choir, you’d have something to say about the music, would you not?

Maybe, maybe not.

 

[YADA]

In places where one or more parishes are close by, people do sometimes vote with their feet. When the people go, so does the money they give. Alas, most of those who would do that need to emulate Jesus, who came to serve, not to be served.

Sadly, they will probably find somethiing at the new parish to “vote with their feet” as well…

If you do not think the liturgy is as it should be music, lectors, ushers, altar servers, EMHC, environment … then volunteer in the area you fin troubling … bring your knowledge and talents to the table … help make the decisions and participate … bring your copies of the GIRM, the docuemnts of Vatican II, etc. and help educate the other volunteers and perhaps gin insights and education yourself…

BEcome a part of hte solution and not just a critic

 

[pnewton]

Sadly, they will probably find somethiing at the new parish to “vote with their feet” as well…

If you do not think the liturgy is as it should be [music, lectors, ushers, altar servers, EMHC, environment … then volunteer in the area you fin troubling … bring your knowledge and talents to the table …

That’s what I was thinking. If there is no interest in your service or (name removed by moderator)ut, then maybe God wants you to serve else where.
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[JRKH]

Sadly, they will probably find somethiing at the new parish to “vote with their feet” as well…

If you do not think the liturgy is as it should be [music, lectors, ushers, altar servers, EMHC, environment … then volunteer in the area you fin troubling … bring your knowledge and talents to the table … help make the decisions and participate … bring your copies of the GIRM, the docuemnts of Vatican II, etc. and help educate the other volunteers and perhaps gin insights and education yourself…

BEcome a part of hte solution and not just a critic

This is a wonderful sentiment and I firmly agree. There are a couple of caveats though.
Depending on the Parish, if there is a full time music director, there may be little one can do other than offer suggestions. If the music director has specific opinions or “percieves” certain needs or wants in the parish, they may not be amenable to suggestion.
Also, not everyone is able to volunteer. Family and health issues can prevent a more active participation.
Overall though, as I say, I firmly agree. There are far too many people who could contribute more time who simply don’t.

I think everyone will agree that we don’t seem to be able to get away from a certain amount of “politicing” in the parish. Someone earlier mentioned about how those who contribute more money can get more of their way. Unfortunately a truism.
There is also the tendency for those in authority in a parish to assume wants and desires within a parish that may or may not be true, or at least not to the extent assumed. In particular I am thinking of the number of times I have heard people, both here on these boards and elsewhere, declare that “No one in our parish wants the EF (TLM)”. I don’t mean to hijack this thread but offer this simply as an example.

How can ANYONE know what Everyone in the parish wants. I have never heard of a parish polling people on their desires for the EF, Choice of music, Prayers during mass, Location of the Tabernacle, whether to remove kneelers or any of a host of other issues. In most cases the parishoners are willing to put up with a great deal because they are there to honor God and recieve His Body and Blood. We overlook much that is not edifying in order to get to this one thing that is MOST edifying.

I have been a member of several parishes in my life and the only time I can remember them being interested in everyones (name removed by moderator)ut was on a building project and what we thought about various options, and how much we might be able to contribute to the building fund.

All of this is by way of simply saying that, if a parish wanted to find out what everyone thinks, they could. If they recognize that any group of several hundred people are all going to have various tastes and desires, they will attempt to fulfill them out of Love and a sense of service. And they will insist that it be done in full accordance with the guidelines set forth by the magisterium for the liturgy.

Peace
James
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[YADA]

Well, I hear what you are saying … I, too, have been members of several parishes and currently attend two on a regular basis … one our “home” parish [large, urban with school and considered well off - 2000+ families] and the other in the rural town where my mother lives [poor, would have been clesed years ago but he Augustinians keep a priest posted there, small, lots of elderly and disabled].

My home parish has a full time music staff person [a liturgist] and paid accompianist - all of the other music ministers are volunteers and let me tell you they volunteer hours and hours and hours … they attend weekly practices, serve at more than one mass ach weekend, and quarterly music camps … in addition to this cantors serve at weddings and funerals … they have a committee [open for any one to join even if they do not sing or play an instrument] that studies the documents of Vatican II, the USCCB, the GIRM and the scriptures as the basis for the musuc that is selectedfor mass … most people do not want to put forththe effort to study the documents, scriptures and the music, they really want to impose their selections … their favorites be that Gregorian Chant or some other selection …

In the very poor parish, they do not have any cantors but they do have a collection of volunteers … they gather with father * and make the selections for mass. I can tell that they consider the readings by the selections … and though it is less polished perhaps occassionallt less than melodius, or the selections much too difficult, these people are there giving themselves to God and to their fellow parishioners … and giving more than just the time at mass and I am humbled by their service …

In fact the musicians at both parishes are examples of a service of Love … Love for Christ, Love for the Church and Love for their fellow parishioners …

If one wants to “complain” then one should*** first*** put forth the effort to investigate how the music is selected and participate in the process …

The person may learn that what they thought correct was not …

The person may have an expertise or knowledge that was needed by those making the selection …

The person my find out that it is impossible to make all of the people happy all of the time … but that you can make most people happy some of the time … because I can tell you that if we switch to gregorian chant for every mass, many will love it but some will hate it … Songs in latin, some like it other do not … Ditto for songs in spanish or spanish and english combinations …

The same music, the same mass will get complaints of being too fast and too slow … in truth music cannot be both too fast and too slow at the same time …

Also, I have heard complaints about the cantors [they sing too high, they sing to low, they can’t carry a tune] …

Or the songs are too old fashioned or too modern … the same song!

Don’t complain until you have invested 6 months in the process … no change [even if it is truly necessary] happens over night … 6 months … get involved *

 

[KestrelRose]

We ask and ask for young people to come and help us out. How can we serve the youth if they do not even acknowledge that they want our help or even have use for it?

It is true that communication between generations is difficult but it is a two-way street. Patience is needed on both sides and so is understanding. So often the younger generation simply dismisses the older generation without giving us a chance and the same happens the other direction also.

All of us, young and old alike, do not like having our positions denigrated and so often that is exactly what happens. I wish I had an answer!!

Have you thought about joining one of the music groups? You might be able to give constructive (name removed by moderator)ut from that position.

The music at our parish is bad also, but in a different way than you described. However, I live in a small town and there just aren’t people jumping up to help out with the music ministry. The same people have been doing this for over twenty years! Although they continually ask for new members and even new music groups to form, no one ever steps up to the plate.

Kathy

 

[KestrelRose]

I didn’t answer the question.

The answer: become a good musician yourself. Musicians listen to musicians. Musicians listen to people who understand where they are coming from. Musicians do not listen to people who think they know it all, but do not even have a clue has to what the C scale is, or what a chord is, what it means to practice day after day, or how to read the different notations of a Gregorian Chant.

Then you can discuss all the wonderful possibilities with out “complaining”

 

[Joe_5859]

I have been coming to the conclusion that a good approach is to not complain, but to ask for one Mass each week (just one little Mass!) that tries to implement what Vatican II called for. That would include Gregorian chant (the song proper to the Roman rite, and which is to be given pride of place), some polyphony (also singled out by Vatican II) if you’ve got the resources, and perhaps some English plainchant as well. Ask for just one Mass a week where

-The actual texts of the Mass are sung, rather than other texts. “Sing the Mass, don’t just sing at the Mass.”

-The music is holy, true art and universal - the music that Vatican II calls “a treasure of inestimable value, greater even than that of any other art”.

I’ve even been toying with the idea of starting a campaign called “Just One Mass a Week”.

That’s a great approach! You should start a campaign!

I think the approach depends upon the pastor and one’s relationship with them. Some may greatly welcome receiving (name removed by moderator)ut from a young adult of 19 (as many priests really want to reach this age group). Others might get indignant. I think the fact that the OP is 19 can work to his advantage because he knows more about what teens want than any of the older music directors and/or priests do. And the fact that he wants to do so charitably indicates to me that he probably can do so charitably.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Has it ever occurred to anyone complaining about the music at their parish, that the people in the music ministry, perhaps are responding to what God has called them to do?

If God hasn’t called you to enter the music ministry and bring Gregorian Chant into your parish, perhaps you should listen to God and accept what He has given.

Jim

 

[VociMike]

Has it ever occurred to anyone complaining about the music at their parish, that the people in the music ministry, are responding to what God has called them to do?

If God hasn’t called you to enter the music ministry in your parish and change things, perhaps its not your call to complain in the first place?

Our last two popes also “complained” about liturgical music in the Church and called for improvements.

But I do agree that anybody who wants to see something more in line with what the Church calls for should join up if at all possible.