How do you eat a symbol?

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Wasn’t Jesus with his chosen ones when he said this? So what I can see is that he picked certain men to give this instruction. While we as “common priests” share in this, by Jesus’ instruction to spread his teachings via his Priests to us
Pardon my way to long post.

I agree with you, and one thing that is important to note is that when Jesus said “do this in remembrance of me,” that was NOT a reference to the meal. We only find that phrase, or variations of that phrase, three times, in two places, and not once is it a direct reference to the meal itself. These texts are Luke 22:19 and 1. Corinthians 11:24.25. Consider them:

Luke 22:19: And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”

1. Corinthians 11:24: and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”

1. Corinthians 11:25: In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

The reference of “do this,” is not the sharing, the consummation of communion, but the actions of Christ. Note what I have underlined. This is a reference to the meal. But note that he doesn’t say that we should “do this, by drinking it, in remembrance of me” but “do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

What he says is to do what he did. He did some things, then said “do this in remembrance of me.” To reference liturgical scholar Dom Gregory Dix,**** these actions, in their ‘bulked up’ four-part version, are (1) taking/offering/preparing bread and wine – what developed into the offertory; (2) blessing, giving thanks (the Eucharistic prayer); (3) breaking the bread (the Fraction); and (4) distributing the elements. Note that the last part is not the meal itself. It is the distribution. The meal comes as a consequence, of course, but that doesn’t mean that the command of Christ – “do this in remembrance of me” – is a reference to the meal as such. We consume the elements in answer to the remembrance, but this is not the remembrance in itself. The remembrance is to do what Christ did.

The question then becomes: When Christ uttered these words to the Apostles (“do this in remembrance of me”), was he addressing them as Apostles or as Christians? The former is the interpretation commonly favoured by Catholics (including, but not limited to, Roman Catholics and Orthodox), and it ties to the question of when a Eucharist is a Eucharist. Is it a Eucharist when it is ‘performed’ by someone who is not ordained? That is an important question. I would say no.

We see this quite explicitly in the writings of Sts. Justin Martyr and Cyprian of Carthage. In his First Apology, chapters 65-67, Justin Martyr writes about the early Church’s celebration of the Eucharist.[II] Fr. Timothy, Finigan, a Roman Catholic parish priest of Our Lady of the Rosary in Blackfen, part of the Archdiocese of Southwark, England, has made the point that «the translation [of Justin] most readily available on the internet and in libraries betrays a Protestant bias.»[III] The reason for this is that it translates the Greek sentence εὐχαριστίας, ὅση δύναμις αὐτῷ (evcharistías, hósē dynamis avtō) as «he gives thanks to the best of his ability» rathar than «he offers the Eucharist according to the power which he has» (which is the more literal translation). Most translations available make it seem that Justin has in mind a priest ‘doing the best he can.’ In a Norwegian translation,[IV] Justin writes that the presider offers prayers and thanksgiving «of all his might» («av all sin kraft»). In Norwegian usage, this suggests an image of the priest almost shouting out the prayers. What seems to be suggested by the greek text, however, is that the priest offers this according to the power he has as a priest; the authority given to him in his ordination.

This is even more explicit in the writings of St. Cyprian of Carthage,[V] which is pretty close to what I have outlined above on what Christ meant by “do this in remembrance of me”:

For if Jesus Christ, our Lord and God, is Himself the chief priest of God the Father, and has first offered Himself a sacrifice to the Father, and has commanded this to be done in commemoration of Himself, certainly that priest truly discharges the office of Christ, who imitates that which Christ did; and he then offers a true and full sacrifice in the Church to God the Father, when he proceeds to offer it according to what he sees Christ Himself to have offered.
  • Dom Gregory Dix, The Shape of the Liturgy* (Second ed. London: A&C Black 1945, reprint 1975): 48-50.
[II] Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1., ed. Alexander Roberts & James Donaldson (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers 1995):185-186 (orig. 1885).

[III] Fr. Timothy Finigan, Sacred and Great. Traditional Liturgy in a Modern Parish (2008):9.

[IV] Justin, Første Apologi, trans. Jostein Garcia de Presno (Oslo: Solum 2004): 106.

[V] Epistolae 62:14, in Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5., ed. Alexander Roberts & James Donaldson (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers 1995):362 (orig. 1886). See Finigan, Sacred and Great, p.9.**
 
The difference between the Catholic and most Protestant Churches is that the Catholic Church believes Christ is in the bread and wine in some mysterious sense, whereas the Protestants believe the bread and wine are merely symbolic of his flesh and blood.
That is correct, unless you define Lutherans as Protestants.

But that’s fine with me. As a Lutheran in the Church of Norway I do not define myself as a Protestant anyway.
 
I feel that changes the question entirely. You turned it into a theological debate instead of someone trampling on the rights of others.
Pardon me, but I did not change it to Theology but started off the OP as a theological point. Nothing about the rights of others. I also said, Christians who don’t believe in the Real Presence are not loving Christ less.

The Jews who did the damage calls Catholics as idolators. And I used that incident to explain that because the Church of Loaves and Fish is a Catholic one and all that it entails which includes the Eucharist.

I take exception to being called Idolators (which is a Theological matter to these Jews), so it has nothing to do with rights but teachings of the Church. Regardless of the way the news may report the matter.
Theologically, if a Catholic is merely debating a practicing Jew, then why would a Protestant defend the theology of transubstantiation? I don’t believe the church taught transubstantiation for the last 2 millennium, I do, however, believe you have the right to think that and practice it if you so choose.
Why don’t you believe? Transubstantiation is a term used to give it a name but the teaching that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ is from the beginning of Christ’s Church. Like the word “Trinity” to explain God (God has always been a Trinity -as the Church teaches).
Because in various places in the Bible it tells believers they are responsible to share the gospel.
Sure. But are believers actually sharing a consistent Gospel?

MJ
 
Pardon my way to long post.

I agree with you, and one thing that is important to note is that when Jesus said “do this in remembrance of me,” that was NOT a reference to the meal. We only find that phrase, or variations of that phrase, three times, in two places, and not once is it a direct reference to the meal itself. These texts are Luke 22:19 and 1. Corinthians 11:24.25. Consider them:

Luke 22:19: And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”

1. Corinthians 11:24: and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”

1. Corinthians 11:25: In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

The reference of “do this,” is not the sharing, the consummation of communion, but the actions of Christ. Note what I have underlined. This is a reference to the meal. But note that he doesn’t say that we should “do this, by drinking it, in remembrance of me” but “do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

What he says is to do what he did. He did some things, then said “do this in remembrance of me.” To reference liturgical scholar Dom Gregory Dix,****** these actions, in their ‘bulked up’ four-part version, are (1) taking/offering/preparing bread and wine – what developed into the offertory; (2) blessing, giving thanks (the Eucharistic prayer); (3) breaking the bread (the Fraction); and (4) distributing the elements. Note that the last part is not the meal itself. It is the distribution. The meal comes as a consequence, of course, but that doesn’t mean that the command of Christ – “do this in remembrance of me” – is a reference to the meal as such. We consume the elements in answer to the remembrance, but this is not the remembrance in itself. The remembrance is to do what Christ did.

The question then becomes: When Christ uttered these words to the Apostles (“do this in remembrance of me”), was he addressing them as Apostles or as Christians? The former is the interpretation commonly favoured by Catholics (including, but not limited to, Roman Catholics and Orthodox), and it ties to the question of when a Eucharist is a Eucharist. Is it a Eucharist when it is ‘performed’ by someone who is not ordained? That is an important question. I would say no.

We see this quite explicitly in the writings of Sts. Justin Martyr and Cyprian of Carthage. In his First Apology, chapters 65-67, Justin Martyr writes about the early Church’s celebration of the Eucharist.[II] Fr. Timothy, Finigan, a Roman Catholic parish priest of Our Lady of the Rosary in Blackfen, part of the Archdiocese of Southwark, England, has made the point that «the translation [of Justin] most readily available on the internet and in libraries betrays a Protestant bias.»[III] The reason for this is that it translates the Greek sentence εὐχαριστίας, ὅση δύναμις αὐτῷ (evcharistías, hósē dynamis avtō) as «he gives thanks to the best of his ability» rathar than «he offers the Eucharist according to the power which he has» (which is the more literal translation). Most translations available make it seem that Justin has in mind a priest ‘doing the best he can.’ In a Norwegian translation,[IV] Justin writes that the presider offers prayers and thanksgiving «of all his might» («av all sin kraft»). In Norwegian usage, this suggests an image of the priest almost shouting out the prayers. What seems to be suggested by the greek text, however, is that the priest offers this according to the power he has as a priest; the authority given to him in his ordination.

This is even more explicit in the writings of St. Cyprian of Carthage,[V] which is pretty close to what I have outlined above on what Christ meant by “do this in remembrance of me”:

For if Jesus Christ, our Lord and God, is Himself the chief priest of God the Father, and has first offered Himself a sacrifice to the Father, and has commanded this to be done in commemoration of Himself, certainly that priest truly discharges the office of Christ, who imitates that which Christ did; and he then offers a true and full sacrifice in the Church to God the Father, when he proceeds to offer it according to what he sees Christ Himself to have offered.
  • Dom Gregory Dix, The Shape of the Liturgy* (Second ed. London: A&C Black 1945, reprint 1975): 48-50.
[II] Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1., ed. Alexander Roberts & James Donaldson (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers 1995):185-186 (orig. 1885).

[III] Fr. Timothy Finigan, Sacred and Great. Traditional Liturgy in a Modern Parish (2008):9.

[IV] Justin, Første Apologi, trans. Jostein Garcia de Presno (Oslo: Solum 2004): 106.

[V] Epistolae 62:14, in Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5., ed. Alexander Roberts & James Donaldson (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers 1995):362 (orig. 1886). See Finigan, Sacred and Great, p.9.

Thank you KjetilK. 🙂

MJ
 
Pardon me, but I did not change it to Theology but started off the OP as a theological point. Nothing about the rights of others. I also said, Christians who don’t believe in the Real Presence are not loving Christ less.
Why the tone? I wasn’t referring to the OP, I was referring to your post that clarified what you were asking; you asked how could I defend Catholics as a non-believer in transubstantiation. The answer was that as a Catholic you should be able to worship as you see fit without someone else from another religion busting down your door and performing violence against your church or you.

You then asked about the theology of it, not how I could “defend” you in a literal sense. That is when I answered theologically; why would I theologically defend a teaching I don’t believe? I’ll defend Catholics but why would I defend transubstantiation since I don’t believe it? That’s my answer.
The Jews who did the damage calls Catholics as idolators.
They have the right to debate about theological issues just as much as you or I, what they don’t have the right to do is physically “damage” anyone or anything.
I take exception to being called Idolators (which is a Theological matter to these Jews), so it has nothing to do with rights but teachings of the Church. Regardless of the way the news may report the matter.
I would take exception to someone perpetrating violence on me. Why wouldn’t the Jews call Christians idolators? Not only would they view the Eucharist that way, but all of our worship of Jesus as God.
Why don’t you believe? Transubstantiation is a term used to give it a name but the teaching that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ is from the beginning of Christ’s Church. Like the word “Trinity” to explain God (God has always been a Trinity -as the Church teaches).
As a teacher of philosophy I know where the teaching comes from (transubstantiation is derived from Aristotle’s philosophies). The argument on the Real Presence is one thing, the argument on transubstantiation is another. But that’s not for this thread.
Sure. But are believers actually sharing a consistent Gospel?
I actually think we are being fairly consistent with the gospel but inconsistent with the particulars.
 
Why the tone? I wasn’t referring to the OP, I was referring to your post that clarified what you were asking; you asked how could I defend Catholics as a non-believer in transubstantiation. The answer was that as a Catholic you should be able to worship as you see fit without someone else from another religion busting down your door and performing violence against your church or you.
I don’t know what is wrong with my tone. 🤷

With regards to Transubstantiation I didn’t bring up the Theology of it, you did. I only spoke that the Eucharist is actually the Body and Blood of Christ. Transubstantion isn’t believed by the Orthodox either YET they believe about bread and wine consecrated becomes the Body and Blood (any Orthodox can clarity in case I’m not accurate enough).
You then asked about the theology of it, not how I could “defend” you in a literal sense. That is when I answered theologically; why would I theologically defend a teaching I don’t believe? I’ll defend Catholics but why would I defend transubstantiation since I don’t believe it? That’s my answer.
See above. Perhaps you will also say you can’t defend the Orthodox about the bread and wine being the Body and Blood of Christ?
They have the right to debate about theological issues just as much as you or I, what they don’t have the right to do is physically “damage” anyone or anything.
To them wouldn’t God destroy the “idols” of those who are idolators? It is Biblical is not? So they will think they are doing a favour to destroy Church items.
I would take exception to someone perpetrating violence on me. Why wouldn’t the Jews call Christians idolators? Not only would they view the Eucharist that way, but all of our worship of Jesus as God.
This is huge isn’t it? So how will you not condone what God calls idolatry? It seems to me you can can defend by using secular laws , that defend rights of others as the only solution. You will be unable to use Christianity to defend right to worship. :eek:
As a teacher of philosophy I know where the teaching comes from (transubstantiation is derived from Aristotle’s philosophies). The argument on the Real Presence is one thing, the argument on transubstantiation is another. But that’s not for this thread.
Fine. Would you like to start a thread on it?
I actually think we are being fairly consistent with the gospel but inconsistent…/]
So this is good enough for Christianity?

MJ
 
With regards to Transubstantiation I didn’t bring up the Theology of it, you did. I only spoke that the Eucharist is actually the Body and Blood of Christ. Transubstantion isn’t believed by the Orthodox either YET they believe about bread and wine consecrated becomes the Body and Blood (any Orthodox can clarity in case I’m not accurate enough).
I think there is some confusion here; it was my initial understanding that you were not asking for a theological defense of the Catholic church, I thought you were asking how could a non-Catholic defend a Catholic, and a Catholic church, from a physical violent attack. I answered how and why I would defend a Catholic and a Catholic church. You then took it to a theological discussion; how would I defend a Catholic and a Catholic teaching from a Jewish theological attack. The answer is; I wouldn’t defend transubstantiation. *My question to you is; why would I if I don’t believe in transubstantiation? *

Do I have to believe in transubstantiation to protect Catholics and a church? :confused:
See above. Perhaps you will also say you can’t defend the Orthodox about the bread and wine being the Body and Blood of Christ?
I could come a lot closer to doing so because my understanding fits closer to theirs than to transubstantiation. It perhaps is the fault of my philosophical knowledge and my disagreement with Aristotle.
To them wouldn’t God destroy the “idols” of those who are idolators? It is Biblical is not? So they will think they are doing a favour to destroy Church items.
Of course they would, I’m sure they try to defend their actions that way.
This is huge isn’t it?
Yes, it is huge; they don’t believe Jesus is God.
So how will you not condone what God calls idolatry? It seems to me you can can defend by using secular laws , that defend rights of others as the only solution. You will be unable to use Christianity to defend right to worship. :eek:
As I said, it is similar to talking about Islam. I think Muslims have the right to worship, Mormons, Hindus, Buddhists, etc… I don’t think we are called, as Christians, in the age of grace, to harm or do violence to anyone as long as they aren’t trying to do violence to me or someone else. There are Jews that believe all Christians are idolaters, that’s not a surprise.
Fine. Would you like to start a thread on it?
Oh please, no. 😃
So this is good enough for Christianity?
Depends on who you ask.
 
It perhaps is the fault of my philosophical knowledge and my disagreement with Aristotle.
Perhaps your reasoning on transubstantiation is more in disagreement with your Lord & Savior Jesus Christ than with Aristotle for you disagree with His Words in Sacred Scripture.

🤷

The dogma of transubstantiation teaches that the whole substance of bread is changed into that of Christ’s body, and the whole substance of wine into that of his blood, leaving the accidents of bread and wine unaffected. Reason, of course, can’t prove that this happens. But it is not evidently against reason either; it is above reason. Our senses, being confined to phenomena, cannot detect the change: we know it only by faith in God’s word.
 
Jeremy Camps song Walk by Faith sums up Jesus’ Presence in the Eucharist:
youtube.com/watch?v=ygyOECYwd-4

Walk By Faith
By Jeremy Camp

Would I believe you when you would say
Your hand will guide my every way
Will I receive the words You say
Every moment of every day

Well I will walk by faith
Even when I cannot see it
Well because this broken road
Prepares Your will for me

Help me to win my endless fears
You’ve been so faithful for all my years
With the one breath You make me
Your grace covers all I do

Well I will walk by faith
Even when I cannot see it
Well because this broken road
Prepares Your will for me

Well I’m broken, but I still see Your face
Well You’ve spoken, pouring Your words of grace

Well I will walk by faith
Even when I cannot see it
Well because this broken road
Prepares Your will for me

Well I will walk by faith
Even when I cannot see it
Well because this broken road
Prepares Your will for me
 
Perhaps your reasoning on transubstantiation is more in disagreement with your Lord & Savior Jesus Christ than with Aristotle for you disagree with His Words in Sacred Scripture.
No, for Jesus Christ wasn’t an Aristotelian philosopher. He and His followers were all Jewish and would they (His followers) would not have taught the Real Presence in Aristotle’s manner, nor understood it through that lens.
 
As it stands, in the CCC those not in the Church but still believe that Christ died for us, they are still Christians, even if they are not officially in the Church (Catholic Church), God still loves them unconditionally.
agreed
M:
Even with all this ecumenism, there is actually no compromise when the Church states that “there is no Salvation outside the Catholic Church” God would judge according to their hearts…and if they remain in Invincible Ignorance.
agreed

As an aside, invincible ignorance isn’t necessarily easy for one to qualify for that. IOW 1791 ignorance isn’t always innocent. And when it is not innocent one is then culpable for the evil they commit
 
agreed

agreed

As an aside, invincible ignorance isn’t necessarily easy for one to qualify for that. IOW
1791 ignorance isn’t always innocent
And now we make the turn to an “Only Catholics get into Heaven” thread…
 
And now we make the turn to an “Only Catholics get into Heaven” thread…
Welcome to the forum

What you say WOULD take a new thread, so you are correct…

How about the topic of this thread, do you have any comments?
 
Today’s Bible Readings are on Jesus’ difficult teaching on the Eucharist.
Just thought I would post this comment from Gus Lloyd - A little food for thought…

True Food and True Drink

Today’s Gospel reading is John 6:51-58. While much of the Bread of Life discourse up to now has sounded somewhat metaphoric, Jesus gets to the meat of the matter today. (Pun intended.)

“Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink…the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.” Pretty graphic language, eh? Even though people were repulsed by this, Jesus pressed on. Why? Because He knew exactly what He was talking about – the Eucharist.

Here we are nearly 2000 years later, and you and I have the opportunity to feed on Jesus. Not in some metaphoric or symbolic way. To truly eat His Flesh and drink His Blood. As Catholics, we believe that Jesus meant what He said, and said what He meant.

Father, we thank you for giving us the privilege of feeding on Jesus. Help us to be ever grateful for and mindful of the Eucharist. Amen
 
Yes…this privilege…just commented parallel on another thread…our pastor told us years ago to be thankful the Lord gave us faith to believe in His Church and in the Eucharist…because it was a great privilege…this does not make us any better than any one else…we must be thankful for this great grace.

All we can say to our Protestant brethren is to continue on in their inquiry and ask them to pray with us that the Lord may continue to enlighten them and lead them…
 
Great Link!!

We live in the tyranny of subjective relativism…the atheists and nihilists are having a hey day with all their attacks on our objective faith.

Thanks so much!
 
Great Link!!

We live in the tyranny of subjective relativism…the atheists and nihilists are having a hey day with all their attacks on our objective faith.

Thanks so much!
You’re welcome. 🙂

There are some thoughts I would love to add. Especially relating to the Old Testament “Bread of Presence” that forshadows the Eucharist. It’s really an eye opener for me. It includes the Bread of Life discourse in John 6 and the Our Father prayer. When I have time I hope to include them in this thread.

MJ
 
Martin…I go back to Genesis 3…the Tree of Life…to the Tree in Jeremiah…our faith should be like the big tree standing by the river, whose roots go way down deep to draw on the living waters…(think of the Samartin woman at the well, .to the Messiah dying on a tree…to Our Lord placed in an animal feeder…pointed out by the Angel Gabriel to note.
 
I should say that I was raised in a church of Baptist tradition with Pentecostal leanings. I knew what I was supposed to think and feel and believe, but personally, I always felt a void. When I attended Mass with a relative at a young age, I was too naive and uneducated to put my finger on it, but I felt something that let me know the missing piece had been found! I now believe that was the Eucharist and the presence of Christ in the Church HE founded. He called me.

The faith I grew up in was (and is) of a relative importance to me for sentimental reasons and because I have a great love and respect for those people. They are sincere and love the Lord as much as any of us Catholics do, even if they lack some things. I learned things from that church that I will be ever grateful for and has shaped who I am as a Christian.

In Baptist theology, the only thing that really counts is interior disposition. The outward symbols aren’t necessary. Communion was once a month, but they didn’t feel worship was any different on the other Sundays, as true worship is only within, expressed with actions and symbols. If we traveled, we didn’t attend always attend a church. We worshipped in the hotel room or the RV. It was considered equivalent to the service at church, and our attendance would even be recorded as such when we returned and reported to the church secretary that we had worshipped.
Your attendance was recorded? Why?
 
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