I assume it’s being defined by those who are following the teachings, practices and beliefs of the original Church founded by Christ and His Apostles. In other words, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, some parts of Roman Catholicism and some parts of conservative Protestantism.How are you defining “authentic Christianity”? Are Southern Baptist authentic? Pentecostals? Assyrian Church of the East?
Well, the people who Jesus brought back from the dead, simply continued life from where they left off (more of less). This seems much different than being born again into another body and life as would be the case with re-incarnation.hmm, one of the most common objections to reincarnation is that it entails a person undergoing multiple deaths over time, but, the bible says man only dies once (e.g., Heb. 9:27), so I was responding to this by saying there are exceptions to this, so it’s not a good objection to reincarnation.
I agree. I don’t think these are examples of reincarnation. But, I do think they’re biblical proof that man doesn’t necessarily just die once.Well, the people who Jesus brought back from the dead, simply continued life from where they left off (more of less). This seems much different than being born again into another body and life as would be the case with re-incarnation.
Perhaps the fact is you are not truly dead until you stay that way.I agree. I don’t think these are examples of reincarnation. But, I do think they’re biblical proof that man doesn’t necessarily just die once.
Um…the Resurrection of Jesus Christ…He was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell. On the third day he arose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven.Can you disprove that I am sitting next to a fire breathing dragon right now? It is highly unlikely, but you cannot disprove it. Just as you can’t technically disprove reincarnation. I agree that there are definite answers when it comes to the afterlife or the existence of God, but no ways to definitively prove one way or the other what happens after you die. What I am saying is that it seems unlikely that reincarnation or any afterlife exists because there is very little actual evidence to support these claims. In the absence of evidence I think the logical thing to do is conclude that it does not exist. Unless God revealed himself to the world in a public display to everyone, there is really no definitive way to know one way or the other. That is what I am trying to say.
I read a quote by the Dalai Lama recently that seems to pertain to this. Apparently someone asked him what he would do if a main tenant of Buddhism was disproven by science, reincarnation for instance. Without hesitating he said “well Buddhism would change to reflect this.” This surprised the person that asked the question. With a large smile on his face though, he said “you are going to have a tough time trying to disprove reincarnation though.” The reason he was smiling is because it is impossible to disprove reincarnation, heaven and hell, sheol, hades, or ANY afterlife. Since no one has come back from the dead and talked about the afterlife (I don’t want to hear about near death experiences because those can be attributed to brain activity) we can never know for sure. If someone that was dead for a few years came back and said they were in heaven, I would change my mind, but I have a feeling that isn’t going to happen.
C.S. Lewis’ opinion is good enough for me.“Apart from his brother, Warnie Lewis, C.S. Lewis’ best friend was Owen Barfield and from 1927 they went on three or four day walking tours together in the spring. His great contribution was to persuade C. S. LEWIS, and through him** TOLKIEN**, that myth and metaphor has always had a central place in our language and literature. When he was working in London (1931) he occasionally joined the INKLINGS when he came to Oxford. Barfield wrote… a volume of essays, *Romanticism Comes of Age *(1945). Though he joined the Church of England (about 1946), he continued to believe in reincarnation (which C.S. Lewis said no Christian could possibly believe in) and he later wrote several books on Anthroposophy (1957-1971).”
hmm, perhaps. This raises several interesting issues though:Perhaps the fact is you are not truly dead until you stay that way.
hmm, perhaps. This raises several interesting issues though:
(i) Did Jesus really raise anyone from the dead, then?
(ii) Supposing there is a distinction between dying, and truly dying, perhaps all reincarnation says is we have multiple deaths in the former sense.
Okay
- What Jesus did for Lazarus, the son of the widow of Nain and the 12 year old girl were signs of his divinity that could clearly be understood as such, no matter how you categorize them
right, I haven’t disagreed with this.
- Reincarnation is different than resurrection in that in the former, people come back as different people while the latter just continue their former lives after a short interruption. Two totally different concepts
Purgatory is the state where a person is cleansed of their sinful tendencies before entering heaven. Reincarnation is a theory where someone is reborn as a different entity.Just one thing… Can someone explain the difference in outcome between reincarnating on earth ( for purification) and spending time in pergatory ( for purification).
purgatory is not about punishment. Those who enter Purgatory are destined for heaven and must have died in the state of grace… Purgatory is the state (not necessarily a place) where a person is purged of all tendency to sin. This may or may not be painful.They seem to result in the same end? Isn’t pergatory just an ‘acceptable to Christians’ attempt to claim that one’s sins and the punishment due to sin, was not finalized on the cross?
Jesus died so that our sins could be forgiven. However, this doesn’t mean that we aren’t held responsible for our own sins. If you read the Gospels, you will see in Matthew 25: 31-46 that if we fail to show mercy, we will be condemned to Hell. You will also see in Matthew 7:21-23 that we enter the kingdom of Heaven by doing the will of the Father. Reincarnation implies continual " life redoes" - how is that consistent with being judged on your life’s works?If pergatory doesn’t discount Christ’s death for our sins then why must reincarnation?
No, Illusion buster, we are not all forgiven. Those that are forgiven are the ones who repent of their sins and ask for forgiveness sacramentally . Jesus showed us the way to heaven and put his Church in place to help us get there. But he told us that we had to FOLLOW him. And he said that the gate to heaven is narrow and few find it and that the gate to hell is wide and easy… These Serpent is very crafty and fools people through half truths. In the Garden, he told Adam and Eve that they would learn about Good and Evil if they ate from the tree. What he didn’t tell them is that they already knew about Good and that all they were learning was evil. Similary, he has distorted the message of the Cross for many. While it is true that Jesus died on the cross for the forgiveness of sins, it is absolutely faulse that he died so that people could sin without implications. Can’t you see that it is the devil’s trap to have people believe that they can sin with impunity because all will be forgiven?Also… I wouldn’t bundle all recent and differently interpeted knowledge as “new age” and necessessarily wrong. There are just as many new agers (accurate interpretation: today’s thinkers) that don’t believe in reincarnation as those that do. What new agers say is that each of us are given a choice (free will) to choose to purify in pergatory or similar concept or to reincarnate… If you believe in one (pergatory) then why can’t the other also be possible? The real question is:- If Christ finished it all on the cross, then why pergatory? why reincarnation? I suggest that both are representing the same concept… and that it is this guilt driven ILLUSION first planted by the serpent to eve in the garden, that Jesus came to SAVE us from. People who believe in reincarnation are just caught in “hell” so to speak not realizing that the gates are already unlocked. “Time” has it’s purpose…to bring all to that unlocked gate… We are ALL forgiven. It’s just some of us CHOOSE not to believe it.
We have the means to be forgiven because of what Christ did for us.Just one thing… Can someone explain the difference in outcome between reincarnating on earth ( for purification) and spending time in pergatory ( for purification). They seem to result in the same end?
Actually, reincarnation is supposed to happen time and again until a person reaches “nirvana” or “God-realization”, according to Buddhist and Hindu belief. Purgatory, on the other hand, purifies the soul for entry into heaven, according to Catholic belief.
Isn’t pergatory just an ‘acceptable to Christians’ attempt to claim that one’s sins and the punishment due to sin, was not finalized on the cross?
I don’t think so, because we have free will. That is, we can choose to sin if we want. The cross gave us the way to redeem ourselves.
If pergatory doesn’t discount Christ’s death for our sins then why must reincarnation?
Christ’s death for our sins didn’t give everyone a free pass to continue sinning with no consequences.
Also… I wouldn’t bundle all recent and differently interpeted knowledge as “new age” and necessessarily wrong. There are just as many new agers (accurate interpretation: today’s thinkers) that don’t believe in reincarnation as those that do. What new agers say is that each of us are given a choice (free will) to choose to purify in pergatory or similar concept or to reincarnate… If you believe in one (pergatory) then why can’t the other also be possible?
This would be a question of what your faith consists of, what you believe in ultimately.
The real question is:- If Christ finished it all on the cross, then why pergatory? why reincarnation?
Christ died for our sins. Yet we continue to sin.
I suggest that both are representing the same concept…
Not at all, hence the different religions.
and that it is this guilt driven ILLUSION first planted by the serpent to eve in the garden, that Jesus came to SAVE us from.
The serpent introduced death by convincing Eve and Adam to disobey God’s command. Jesus died on the cross to overturn that and bring us life everlasting, conquering death.
People who believe in reincarnation are just caught in “hell” so to speak not realizing that the gates are already unlocked.
imho, the concept of reincarnation is flawed, but I don’t believe people who believe in it are caught in “hell”…just not aware of the fulness of truth.
“Time” has it’s purpose…to bring all to that unlocked gate… We are ALL forgiven. It’s just some of us CHOOSE not to believe it.
Owen Barfield wrote some pretty impressive works and as a thinker and philosopher he was probably on par with Lewis (albeit more difficult to read). But he wasn’t infallible. Anthroposophy has also done some very commendable things (for example their contribution to organic agriculture, or their work with the mentally handicapped). But when it gets into theology they tend to accept a lot of half-truths (many of them based on the writings of Catholic theologians taken out of context), mix in some elements of Hinduism (or occult westernised misconceptions thereof), and draw a lot of wrong conclusions from it all. Steiner was a widely read man who had studied all the great and many of the lesser known philosophers but wasn’t always upfront about his sources, and was sometimes more interested in playing to his audience than in establishing the truth.“Apart from his brother, Warnie Lewis, C.S. Lewis’ best friend was Owen Barfield and from 1927 they went on three or four day walking tours together in the spring. His great contribution was to persuade C. S. LEWIS, and through him** TOLKIEN**, that myth and metaphor has always had a central place in our language and literature. When he was working in London (1931) he occasionally joined the INKLINGS when he came to Oxford. Barfield wrote… a volume of essays, *Romanticism Comes of Age *(1945). Though he joined the Church of England (about 1946), he continued to believe in reincarnation (which C.S. Lewis said no Christian could possibly believe in) and he later wrote several books on Anthroposophy (1957-1971).”
True, also if you accept reincarnation, a logical consequence would be that mercy killings of the maimed and handicapped can be legitimate (as you are only providing those souls with a shortcut to the next, hopefully better life). Likewise, abortion can be justified if for example the parents are alcoholic or drug addicts as you are only giving the baby’s soul the chance to be coneceived again to more fitting parents. Maybe Hitler’s interest in Eastern religions gave him the idea that genocide of inferior races was only helping those souls be re-born under more auspicious conditions. It’s a very dangerous line of thought.I think not! I’ve also heard it taught that the concept of reincarnation cheapens the individuality/dignity of the soul. Pope Benedict XVI mentioned that karma was a cruel concept. Think of it…coming back in a miserable situation for a lifetime because you messed up? Where’s the forgiveness of sins? I totally agree with C.S. Lewis. A Christian might entertain the idea of reincarnation; but cannot believe in it ultimately.
Does this mean that Lazarus must have ascended into heaven? For surely otherwise we would have to assume that he wasn’t really dead when Jesus raised him, and that would lessen the miracle.Also, This???
“… man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment…” (Hebrews 9:27)
This is often assumed, reasonably enough, to declare that each human being lives once as a mortal on earth, dies once, and then faces judgment. But this verse, on it’s surface, not only applies to reincarnation, but to the modern concept of resurrection. In fact, if anything, this verse can be most applied to refuting modern Christianity’s definition of resurrection. .
YOUR THOUGHTS PLEASE!?!
You can’t. Telling people they are wrong never works, anyway, but when Jesus asks is s disciples who people say He s is, they answer “Elijah or one of the Prophets.” Jesus Himself says John the Baptist is Elijah returned. Getting into a thing about reincarnation being real or not, I don’t think is useful.I have a friend who says she believes in reincarnation.
How the heck do I even try and debunk that?
Sort of, different body, same person. (Not sure about the animal thing.)Purgatory is the state where a person is cleansed of their sinful tendencies before entering heaven. Reincarnation is a theory where someone is reborn as a different entity.
OK, but the Orthodox would say that conservative Protestants aren’t following the teachings and practices of the original Church.I assume it’s being defined by those who are following the teachings, practices and beliefs of the original Church founded by Christ and His Apostles. In other words, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, some parts of Roman Catholicism and some parts of conservative Protestantism.