How do you even begin debunking reincarnation?

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It is still a body: pneumatikon SOMA, is by definition a body. Head, hands, feet, etc. Just like our LORD. HE did not cast aside his human soma, but took it up by Resurrection.
I suppose at some point we’ll die and then we’ll be better informed. I have no reason to believe that Jesus Christ exists at this moment as a physical human being like you and I. I do believe He only comes to us in Time in that way, as the Eucharist now, as a human being for a brief while back then.

I really don’t care that much, tbh.
 
I suppose at some point we’ll die and then we’ll be better informed. I have no reason to believe that Jesus Christ exists at this moment as a physical human being like you and I. I do believe He only comes to us in Time in that way, as the Eucharist now, as a human being for a brief while back then.

I really don’t care that much, tbh.
Understood, and we can agree to disagree.

Personally, the prospect of one day being physically held and embraced by our LORD is my greatest hope. I couldn’t be as drawn to HIM if HE had no physical, human arms to embrace me.

In any case, God Bless, and ICXC NIKA.
 
Below is an interesting discription of ‘hell’ as shown in a vision to St Faustina… what makes it interesting, is that it discribes this earth and those who may be caught up in it’s Godlessness along with those living the theology of reincarnation …among other things. The visionary assumes the traditional idea of ‘hell’ being apart from the physical world and in a separate spiritual place from heaven & earth as was custom of her time and times gone by…Spiritual consciousness has developed to consider other possibilities… Personally,… I believe in God’s totally…and so am finding it hard to believe that God and satan can co-exist in ultimate truth…But I also believe there is a ‘hell’ … could ‘hell’ be among us here on earth and also caught somewhere between the physical & spiritual realms (like purgatory) before we transend to heaven?? Remember… Jesus decended into Hell after he died… Why?! If this was a state of no return… why did He go there… surly not to rub it in… Look closely, with an open mind at the discriptions below…Does it not discribe all that is familure around us??
The ‘black’ is my interpretations…What are yours???

Saint Faustina (1905-1938) Apostle of Divine Mercy

Today there is an unspoken assumption that “everyone” is going to Heaven. Fire and brimstone theology is certainly not fashionable, and it has never been comfortable. Moreover, Balthasar’s “dare that we hope that all men be saved” has led to “how dare you suggest that not all men are saved!!!”

Yet, the two most important revelations of the 20th century (to the children of Fatima and to St Faustina) emphasize both that Hell exists and that Hell is inhabited by demons and humans. Below is Saint Faustina’s vision of Hell that Christ revealed to her. It is as vivid as anything produced by Dante. The following is taken from the journal of Saint Faustina:
Today, I was led by an Angel to the chasms of hell. It is a place of great torture; how awesomely large and extensive it is!

The kinds of tortures I saw: the First torture that constitutes hell is the loss of God; the Second is perpetual remorse of conscience; the Third is that one’s condition will never change;(hopelessness…reincarnation theories??) the Fourth is the fire that will penetrate the soul without destroying it (purification is often discribed as a flameless fire??) - a terrible suffering, since it is a purely spiritual fire, lit by God’s anger;(a HUMAN assumsion) the Fifth torture is continual darkness (spiritual blindness?) and a terrible suffocating smell(physical & spiritual polution??), and, despite the darkness, the devils and the souls of the damned see each other and all the evil, both of others and their own;(judgmental & accusing attitudes) the sixth torture is the constant company of Satan(Godlessness…and remember…satan was cast down upon the earth) the Seventh torture is horrible despair, hatred of God, vile words, curses and blasphemies. (seen daily around us)

These are the tortures suffered by all the damned together, but that is not the end of the sufferings. There are special tortures destined for particular souls. These are the torments of the senses.(addictions, illnesses, attacks…etc) Each soul undergoes terrible and indescribable sufferings, related to the manner in which it has sinned.(karma??) There are caverns and pits of torture where one form of agony differs from another.(individual karma??) I would have died at the very sight of these tortures if the omnipotence of God had not supported me. Let the sinner know that he will be tortured throughout eternity, in those senses which he made use of to sin.
I am writing this at the command of God, (no doubt) so that no soul may find an excuse by saying there is no hell, or that nobody has ever been there, and so no one can say what it is like. {TRM: This is similar to the vision of Hell and Our Lady’s warning at Fatima} (but again… Where & what is ‘hell’)

What I have written is but a pale shadow of the things I saw. But I noticed one thing: that most of the souls there are those who disbelieved that there is a hell.(the trap of ignorance) How terribly souls suffer there! Consequently, I pray even more fervently for the conversion of sinners.( the action to help others) (Diary of St. Faustina, 741)
Let us trust in Christ (our only saviour), pray,(converse personally & often with Him) repent of our sins,(the action to help ourselves) love God and neighbor (the solution as given by Jesus to help the world)and adhere to the true Faith “(GOD IS)without which it is impossible to please God” (Heb 11:6).

Saint Faustina, pray for us.
Jesus, our Divine Mercy, have mercy on us.
 
Our jobs as Catholics is to lead people to the truth. Allowing someone to continue in error when we can correct that is not a work of mercy.
QUOTE]

This is true… but Jesus told us to “pray” for one another not to “put them straight”… I think when ever you come across someone whose views are misguided… the greatest action you can apply is to PRAY that… God’s will be done in their lives. And to TRUST in (Jesus/God/Holy Spirt) enough to believe that THAT IS enough… God may required more action from you but HE will show you what to say and do IF it comes to that.
 
paul c;8477710:
Our jobs as Catholics is to lead people to the truth. Allowing someone to continue in error when we can correct that is not a work of mercy.
QUOTE]

This is true… but Jesus told us to “pray” for one another not to “put them straight”… I think when ever you come across someone whose views are misguided… the greatest action you can apply is to PRAY that… God’s will be done in their lives
. And to TRUST in (Jesus/God/Holy Spirt) enough to believe that THAT IS enough… God may required more action from you but HE will show you what to say and do IF it comes to that.

Jesus’ commission to his Church in Matthew 28:18-20
18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore,* and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.* And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” :

It takes more than prayer…
 
The church acknowledged that the resurrected body will not be the same body - it will be an incorruptible one as discussed in 1 Corinthians 15, But it WILL be a body and it WILL be unique to us. This is why the church states in the creed: I believe in th resurrection of the body.
YES! but that doesn’t suggest the “body” we know here is anything similar to the ‘glorified body’. Lets look at what we DO know… (1) Jesus glorified body was not recognizable but at a given word was (2) Jesus glorified body could appear here & there at the same time. (3) Jesus glorified body could walk through walls and yet at a given consent be solid & able to be touched. (4) Jesus glorified body could defy gravity and assend off the earth.(a feat not exclusive…st Joseph of Cupertino /St Francis of Assisi/ st Martin De Porres/ St Teresa of Avila to mention a few, all defied gravity by levitating). Of course it can be argued that Jesus is also God and so could do what ever He pleased. But Jesus was FULLY HUMAN & FULLY GOD… (an oximoron if ever there was one). I have also wondered why He asked Mary magdeline to not touch Him as He hadn’t yet assended to the Father? What could have happened if she DID touch Him?? There is something significant here but I don’t know what it is…By the way… ALL of this is still relevent to the discussion of reincarnation as we are defining what exactly is 'body’and ‘spirit’ or both and what happens after death and what exactly is meant by ‘death’ and ‘one life’.
 
YES! but that doesn’t suggest the “body” we know here is anything similar to the ‘glorified body’. Lets look at what we DO know… (1) Jesus glorified body was not recognizable but at a given word was (2) Jesus glorified body could appear here & there at the same time. (3) Jesus glorified body could walk through walls and yet at a given consent be solid & able to be touched. (4) Jesus glorified body could defy gravity and assend off the earth.(a feat not exclusive…st Joseph of Cupertino /St Francis of Assisi/ st Martin De Porres/ St Teresa of Avila to mention a few, all defied gravity by levitating). Of course it can be argued that Jesus is also God and so could do what ever He pleased. But Jesus was FULLY HUMAN & FULLY GOD… (an oximoron if ever there was one). I have also wondered why He asked Mary magdeline to not touch Him as He hadn’t yet assended to the Father? What could have happened if she DID touch Him?? There is something significant here but I don’t know what it is…By the way… ALL of this is still relevent to the discussion of reincarnation as we are defining what exactly is 'body’and ‘spirit’ or both and what happens after death and what exactly is meant by ‘death’ and ‘one life’.
None of this is pertinent to reincarnation. Jesus wasn’t reborn into another individual, He came back as his resurrected self. And remember, he still had the wounds which St. Thomas put his hand in. And in fact, Mary Magdalen DID touch him. Here’s the sequence from John 20
The Appearance to Mary of Magdala.* 11But Mary stayed outside the tomb weeping.f And as she wept, she bent over into the tomb 12and saw two angels in white sitting there, one at the head and one at the feet where the body of Jesus had been. 13And they said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?” She said to them, “They have taken my Lord, and I don’t know where they laid him.” 14When she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus there, but did not know it was Jesus.g 15Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?”h She thought it was the gardener and said to him, “Sir, if you carried him away, tell me where you laid him, and I will take him.” 16Jesus said to her, “Mary!” She turned and said to him in Hebrew, “Rabbouni,”* which means Teacher. 17Jesus said to her, “Stop holding on to me,* for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”i 18Mary of Magdala went and announced to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord,” and what he told her.
Don’t be confused by the fact that Jesus had superhuman power. He is God afterall
 
illusion buster;8479981:
Jesus’ commission to his Church in Matthew 28:18-20
18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore,* and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.* And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” :
It takes more than prayer…

I believe I also said that…But any action is to firstly be humblely submitted in pray to God so that it is HIS will in action and not yours. It’s not WHAT you do, but the WAY you DO it…And…Jesus said… “teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you”. And what did Jesus command them to do? Pray for your enemies…Do good to those who harm you…Love God & Love the neighbour as thy self.* In doing all this, others will see God IN you and WANT what you have and be drawn TO you or ‘your light’. THEN you CAN teach them the WAY of the Lord as shown to us. Telling someone that they are WRONG is not going to present to an open ear…And as far as telling someone that reincarnation is a false belief…Well we all need to understand the ins and outs of the belief, the whys and wherefores before approaching such an action. Telling them that 'the Catholic Church says…blah blah blah…can only be meet by distain…and can only present an accusing judgemental attitude…Let’s ask ourself “how would Jesus handle it?..”
 
None of this is pertinent to reincarnation. Jesus wasn’t reborn into another individual, He came back as his resurrected self. And remember, he still had the wounds which St. Thomas put his hand in. And in fact, Mary Magdalen DID touch him. Here’s the sequence from John 20
[Don’t be confused by the fact that Jesus had superhuman power. He is God afterall[/COLOR]
I stand corrected… So she DID touch Him…So… why COULDN’T she “hold on” then?.. But I disagree that all this is not relevent to this thread…JESUS’ death & resurrection is the WHOLE POINT! How What Where & Why IS significant to ALL questions. To someone who believes in reincarnation…Jesus could indeed be the very PRODUCT of reincarnation through past lives which had brought Him to where He was at…(not my personal belief). It could be presented that Jesus BROKE the reincarnation cycle and so be an argument FOR Christian theology without debunking their solid belief in reincarnation (be it true of false). Discussing Jesus’ position (body/spirit/soul) as SAVIOUR from all sorts of misperception and misinterpretation is really the answer to ALL.

Also…What was your reference to ‘superhuman power’?
 
Understood, and we can agree to disagree.

Personally, the prospect of one day being physically held and embraced by our LORD is my greatest hope. I couldn’t be as drawn to HIM if HE had no physical, human arms to embrace me.

In any case, God Bless, and ICXC NIKA.
Thank you. I will tell you that my daughter’s friend who almost died as a small child reports meeting Jesus, and He was a man, just like any man, to her eyes. I would like a big ole’ hug myself, but I’m sure I’ll be too busy falling at His feet and begging forgiveness.

See, I expect to just see people like here, only without the flaws of Time. I do not pretend to understand myself.

God bless you abundantly.
 
“Death” is obvious. You cease breathing; your eyes roll back; your brain stops working, and shortly the tissues of your being start to degrade biochemically. Normally, the process we call “death” is irreversible; but our LORD demonstrated otherwise.

“One life” is obvious. You do not get a change of personae through repeated “lifetimes”; you live out your human life, after which you assume your eternal life, but remain the same being.

“Spirit” is a wee bit harder. The word comes from the Latin word for breath. Spirit, we could say, is the breath from God that makes us not just alive but human, and candidates for life eternal.

“Body” is not so hard, although bodies are solid. The body is the external mechanism that enables us to move, see, smell, touch etc. Bodies hold and express our life. Our present body, psychikon soma, is subject to entropy and so cannot hold life eternal, but like our LORD, we will be fitted with a new, pneumatikon soma, when we become eternal beings in the next life.

ICXC NIKA.
 
paul c;8480035:
I believe I also said that…But any action is to firstly be humblely submitted in pray to God so that it is HIS will in action and not yours. It’s not WHAT you do, but the WAY you DO it…And…Jesus said… “teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you”. And what did Jesus command them to do? Pray for your enemies…Do good to those who harm you…Love God & Love the neighbour as thy self.* In doing all this, others will see God IN you and WANT what you have and be drawn TO you or ‘your light’. THEN you CAN teach them the WAY of the Lord as shown to us. Telling someone that they are WRONG is not going to present to an open ear…And as far as telling someone that reincarnation is a false belief…Well we all need to understand the ins and outs of the belief, the whys and wherefores before approaching such an action. Telling them that 'the Catholic Church says…blah blah blah…can only be meet by distain…and can only present an accusing judgemental attitude…Let’s ask ourself “how would Jesus handle it?..”
Okay, now you are describing HOW to evangelize. This greatly depends on both parties. Some methods work for some people, while others turn them off. I agree with you that we need to be charitable above all, but we still must witness to the truth. And absolutely, we must not be judgemental. You make very good points in this regard. But you can’t be afraid to tell people what the Catholic Church teaches, even if they react with disdain.

As for how Jesus would handle it - Jesus wasn’t one to sugarcoat the message. He laid the truth out there and let people react as they would. In fact, when He was confronted by the Pharisees and scribes in Matthew 15,He didn’t hesitate to call them Hypocrites for their position. Jesus himself met with both adulation and opposition so fierce that it actually resulted in His crucifixion. If God incarnate can’t reach everyone, neither should we expect to.
 
I stand corrected… So she DID touch Him…So… why COULDN’T she “hold on” then?..
Maybe its a simple as it was time for Him to go and he needed her to let go so He could leave.
But I disagree that all this is not relevent to this thread…JESUS’ death & resurrection is the WHOLE POINT! How What Where & Why IS significant to ALL questions. To someone who believes in reincarnation…Jesus could indeed be the very PRODUCT of reincarnation through past lives which had brought Him to where He was at…(not my personal belief). It could be presented that Jesus BROKE the reincarnation cycle and so be an argument FOR Christian theology without debunking their solid belief in reincarnation (be it true of false). Discussing Jesus’ position (body/spirit/soul) as SAVIOUR from all sorts of misperception and misinterpretation is really the answer to ALL
In my opinion, it is wrong to offer up a suggestion that Jesus BROKE the reincarnation cycle when the Catholic Church teaches that re-incarnation is not true. This will only cause confusion. In fact, re-incarnation clearly militates against the entire Judeo-Christian concept of life, the soul and judgement after death. It would violate the concept of one baptism for the forgiveness of sins (if a person could be reborn, then they would be expected to be baptized in each life, right). It violates the concept of the resurrection of the body as well. These are Creedal beliefs.
Also…What was your reference to ‘superhuman power’?
You mentioned that after his resurrection, Jesus could walk through walls, disappear and reappear at will and levitate. These were the superhuman powers I was referencing. They don’t mean that the resurrected Jesus didn’t have a body. It is just another sign that he was God.
 
Maybe its a simple as it was time for Him to go and he needed her to let go so He could leave.

In my opinion, it is wrong to offer up a suggestion that Jesus BROKE the reincarnation cycle when the Catholic Church teaches that re-incarnation is not true. This will only cause confusion. In fact, re-incarnation clearly militates against the entire Judeo-Christian concept of life, the soul and judgement after death. It would violate the concept of one baptism for the forgiveness of sins (if a person could be reborn, then they would be expected to be baptized in each life, right). It violates the concept of the resurrection of the body as well. These are Creedal beliefs.

You mentioned that after his resurrection, Jesus could walk through walls, disappear and reappear at will and levitate. These were the superhuman powers I was referencing. They don’t mean that the resurrected Jesus didn’t have a body. It is just another sign that he was God.
Indeed, others have experienced levitation and bilocation, etc; while obviously NOT being bodiless.

The not-clinging-to HIM was simple. They weren’t getting HIM back to stay; they needed to adjust to their old association with HIM being over.

And if our LORD ceased being a body, then the empty tomb, His scarred hands/feet, His holdable solidness were nothing but a deception. Either HE’s a body, or HE’s nobody.

ICXC NIKA
 
I have a friend who says she believes in reincarnation.

How the heck do I even try and debunk that? Of course I’ll have to go into some metaphysical field, but still…

And that reminds me, with such radical different beliefs across the world, how in the world did the Christian missionaries convert, for example, those in Feudal Japan who practiced Buddhism? The person who immediately comes to mind is St. Francis Xavier. I suppose the fact that one can say that Christ was some sort of samarai sacrificing himself for his lord is easy enough, but how does one go into the more metaphysical doctrines?

Thanks 🙂
Scott:

Reincarnation is a tough question to wrestle with as it is one of those subjects that is a purely speculative consideration. It must be thought out before it is truly adhered to; and I don’t think that it generally is.

The concept of the soul as form, is a unique adoption, in most respects, of Christianity. Most non-Christian conceptions of soul view it as an ethereal being, or gas-like thing that has a separate reality from whatever living body it happens to be inhabiting at the moment. For example, in one pseudo-religion it is known as a “thetan.” As such, and upon the death of its previous landlord body it may float around for exceptionally long periods of time until it finds another unencumbered body (of any sort) to inhabit. And, the body-organism may not be a particularly desirable one. That is, the thetan may be an amoeba forever.

Other forms of theosophy are structured differently. For some, dying and returning may be a cyclical endeavor – one that we desire to escape from.

In Christianity, thanks in large part to Aquinas, the soul is perhaps best defined: as the form of the being. More precisely, it is an admixture of form and primary matter. As such, it is completely unique. It is a principle of “differentiation,” determining each of us from each other. So, on the one hand the soul is that exigency that determines us to be this or that separate and unique individual and, on the other it terminates the motion of coming to be. Reincarnation requires an instilment of some sort. The spirit sort of stands in line awaiting a (or the next) fertilized ovum then wends its way into it.

In its role as a determinant, a soul is a “one-and-only:” like plants and lower animals: each being distinct from one another, so too are human souls, matter-form composites distinct from one another. It would seem that God would somehow have less perfection if he had to “recycle,” as it were, souls by reincarnating us. How could God run out of creativity? Of course, God is not required for reincarnation theosophy.

A further question involves whether all of us undergo the reincarnation cycle. If so, and if we take with us some residue from our past lives, how then is it possible for people to be adamantly theistic or non-theistic? Should not each of us have the prior knowledge of past lives and the cycle of entrapment? I know there are those that say they do, but there are those that swear that they’ve seen space aliens too. Here I am not talking about possibilities, rather I am speaking to logic.

Additionally, among the various theosophies the life-imparter (soul, thetan, etc.) has a beginning and, in some cases, an end. If the reincarnation exigencies have beginnings, logic dictates that there must be an entity (or entities) outside of them that effectuate their coming to be. Furthermore, if they can go out of existence, there must be an infinite multitude of them/us – otherwise, of course, there could come a time when there are no more of them/us. But, if there were an infinite multitude of them/us, what need would we have for “reincarnation” – other that to vex us? This would seem to supplant God. It would seem, if carried all the way out, to replace “God” with me, or you. If we were gods, certainly we would choose to create better bodies; or better pain remedies; or a whole host of other “betters.” Heaven knows, we should have had lots of practice.

God bless,
jd
 
I’ve observed that most people who believe in reincarnation have been BORN into the belief & so for them it’s true until proven otherwise. Those who haven’t been born into the thought system have come to their conclusions as an answer to the unanwered questions of: if not reincarnation? then what? (Stories of children remembering whole full other lives in other countries & being able to describe & name names etc etc… The Dali Lama’s story…among thousands of similar stories). One can’t just put it down to imagination, brainwashing or hoax… Again…I think explainations are part of the 99% of unknown knowledge yet to be revealed. And if we are completely honest…we (All of us) have no REAL idea as to how things work in this amazing universe and the life beyond…We (All of us) are still being 'spoon fed" as the total TRUTH would be beyond comprehension…The only ULTIMATE TRUTH is God IS!
 
I’ve observed that most people who believe in reincarnation have been BORN into the belief & so for them it’s true until proven otherwise. Those who haven’t been born into the thought system have come to their conclusions as an answer to the unanwered questions of: if not reincarnation? then what? (Stories of children remembering whole full other lives in other countries & being able to describe & name names etc etc… The Dali Lama’s story…among thousands of similar stories). One can’t just put it down to imagination, brainwashing or hoax… Again…I think explainations are part of the 99% of unknown knowledge yet to be revealed. And if we are completely honest…we (All of us) have no REAL idea as to how things work in this amazing universe and the life beyond…We (All of us) are still being 'spoon fed" as the total TRUTH would be beyond comprehension…The only ULTIMATE TRUTH is God IS!
As a non-Catholic, I’m curious as to the dogmatic status of the denial of reincarnation. Is such a denial a “dogma”, or is it a “definitive doctrine”, an “authoritative doctrine” or what? The catechism talks about the denial of reincarnation, but no status of the teaching is indicated. Such a denial is not explicitly in the Nicene Creed (since the affirming of bodily resurrection does not necessarily negate a reincarnational process).
 
As a non-Catholic, I’m curious as to the dogmatic status of the denial of reincarnation. Is such a denial a “dogma”, or is it a “definitive doctrine”, an “authoritative doctrine” or what? The catechism talks about the denial of reincarnation, but no status of the teaching is indicated. Such a denial is not explicitly in the Nicene Creed (since the affirming of bodily resurrection does not necessarily negate a reincarnational process).
Actually, bodily resurrection does negate rebirth, since you as an embodied being do not rise again if your spiritual elements have since been put into someone else. Resurrection means “you” (everybody) will live again as the same human being, with a human body, albeit transformed by Eternity. The doctrine leaves no room for becoming somebody else or an animal.

Scripture states that we die once and then go to judgement. As for the formal statement, the CCC is the best starting point.

Anybody is free to believe in reincarnation, but no twisting of Catholic teaching can make it and reincarnation compatible.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.
 
Actually, bodily resurrection does negate rebirth, since you as an embodied being do not rise again if your spiritual elements have since been put into someone else. Resurrection means “you” (everybody) will live again as the same human being, with a human body, albeit transformed by Eternity. The doctrine leaves no room for becoming somebody else or an animal.

Scripture states that we die once and then go to judgement. As for the formal statement, the CCC is the best starting point.

Anybody is free to believe in reincarnation, but no twisting of Catholic teaching can make it and reincarnation compatible.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.
Have you read Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma? I didn’t see the denial of reincarnation as having the highest level of certainty.
 
Have you read Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma? I didn’t see the denial of reincarnation as having the highest level of certainty.
Reincarnation is not compatible with Christianity.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=198

To put it bluntly in the words of St. Basil the Great

“Avoid the nonsense of those arrogant philosophers who do not blush to liken their soul to that of a dog, who say that they have been formerly themselves women, shrubs, or fish. Have they ever been fish? I do not know, but I do not fear to affirm that in their writings they show less sense than fish.”
 
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