How do you feel about atheists?

[Jelrak_TB]

Do you immunize your children, TB, assuming you are a parent (and if you’re not, try to be charitable to the analogy and think in the abstract)?

Imagine how it looks from a 5 yr old’s POV. “This Big Mean Father is holding me down so mean nurses can stick me over and over and over again with a painful needle!”

But we all know that good parents will indeed hold down their children so they can “suffer” with the pain of shots.

And there is no explanation which will console this 5 yr old into saying, “Oh, thank you, Father! I get it now! You are creating immunogenic agents in my system so I can fight disease. You do love me!”

I appreciate the analogy…it certainly has some plausibility…yet such a scenario seemingly implies no means of imparting sufficient knowledge to the child so as to have them understand (which may well be the case with a 2 year-old, mind you…), but would such truly be the case with God, for whom all things might be possible…? Yet perhaps it is not communicated for reasons even further removed than this…?

Yet surely this must stand as cold comfort to the mother and her daughter that God might appear to have such a limited presence in their current reality to withhold the potential positive aspects of their current suffering…?

Regardless, it would not be honest to claim that simply because God does not behave as might be expected that He equally not exist…seemingly it appears more to speak against the concept that He might truly have a meaningful relationship with individuals during the brief period in which their choices and interactions allegedly might make the most difference. For if one might seek to ask one’s father why, would one consider one’s father to be close and caring should he continuously fail to respond?

 

[estesbob]

I appreciate the analogy…it certainly has some plausibility…yet such a scenario seemingly implies no means of imparting sufficient knowledge to the child so as to have them understand (which may well be the case with a 2 year-old, mind you…), but would such truly be the case with God, for whom all things might be possible…? Yet perhaps it is not communicated for reasons even further removed than this…?

Yet surely this must stand as cold comfort to the mother and her daughter that God might appear to have such a limited presence in their current reality to withhold the potential positive aspects of their current suffering…?

Regardless, it would not be honest to claim that simply because God does not behave as might be expected that He equally not exist…seemingly it appears more to speak against the concept that He might truly have a meaningful relationship with individuals during the brief period in which their choices and interactions allegedly might make the most difference. For if one might seek to ask one’s father why, would one consider one’s father to be close and caring should he continuously fail to respond?

If one believes in eternal life how would the fact that a billion years ago they went through a lot of pain would be relevant ?

 

[Jelrak_TB]

Perhaps you should not be so parochial in your outlook?

That is, try to look at the bigger picture.

Might you suggest an example? At times it is difficult to fail but to be somewhat myopic, but I have in mind the example of a woman who might freely choose to remain chaste, against a would-be rapist who might freely choose to assault her. Why might the one appear to be able to accomplish his aims at the expense of the other…?

So you can see why Catholicism asserts evangelism as having such great import.

But would then Catholicism bear a certain responsibility for failing to reach deep into the heart of rival ideologies?

Understand that obviously I would not think so, but what would the Catholic Church consider? Is this what might have driven their previous zeal for evangelism?

 

[Jelrak_TB]

Except that the child didn’t know that the father sent a surgeon to the house to remove the splinter.

The child simply thought it was serendipity. Not through the Father’s Hand.

Is this because the father might not wish to take credit and so gives the appearance of ignoring the child (or is it possible that he is simply very reticent)…? Should the child then be seeking to form a relationship with the surgeon…?

 

[Jelrak_TB]

In my case, in addition to the fact he one actually spoke to me, I have seen too many wonders and miracles in my life to doubt God’s existence . I’ve also seen the wonders he is working in other’s lives . To be honest I cannot understand how anyone can live in this world and not believe in God . For those who say he’s not working any wonders in their life I say you’re not letting Him

I will not pry into what He said to you, but if you feel comfortable in revealing it I would be curious…

The world certainly does appear to be filled with complexly balanced systems that would be more pleasing to explain with a creator in mind…yet equally the universe appears to be a largely hostile environment with a near infinitude of realms in which randomness might create any array of patterns and combinations…and though it does seem helpful that foods appear to ripen at the approximate times that one’s body requires those elements, it seems equally possible that one’s body may have adapted to the opportunities which surrounded it at a given time…

I envy your faith that you might see a pattern and think God. When I see a pattern I turn it over and see chaos on the other side…

 

[Jelrak_TB]

If one believes in eternal life how would the fact that a billion years ago they went through a lot of pain would be relevant ?

It is a fair point…yet how might a billion years pass and one yet still allegedly be punished in Hell for an act that might not at that point even be possible to remember…?

Further, how might one maintain their merit in Heaven based upon an event a billion years in the past…?

 

[PRmerger]

It is a fair point…yet how might a billion years pass and one yet still allegedly be punished in Hell for an act that might not at that point even be possible to remember…?

Further, how might one maintain their merit in Heaven based upon an event a billion years in the past…?

No one* merits* heaven, TB. That is not a correct articulation of Catholic theology.

 

[PRmerger]

Is this because the father might not wish to take credit and so gives the appearance of ignoring the child (or is it possible that he is simply very reticent)…?

It is because the Father does not have hands and feet near his son.

Should the child then be seeking to form a relationship with the surgeon…?

Yes, the child should form relationships with all of the Father’s servants.

 

[PRmerger]

Might you suggest an example? At times it is difficult to fail but to be somewhat myopic, but I have in mind the example of a woman who might freely choose to remain chaste, against a would-be rapist who might freely choose to assault her. Why might the one appear to be able to accomplish his aims at the expense of the other…?

Because God does not create automatons.

If he interferes with the evil designs of a rapist, then the rapist cannot choose evil. And the rapist also cannot choose to repent.

But would then Catholicism bear a certain responsibility for failing to reach deep into the heart of rival ideologies?

No. Why should it bear responsibility for anyone’s choice to refuse to embrace the Truth?

Understand that obviously I would not think so, but what would the Catholic Church consider?

This ^^ makes no sense to me. Could you please rephrase?

Is this what might have driven their previous zeal for evangelism?

What drives men and women in previous ages is beyond my paygrade, TB.

(And yours, too, I might add.)

 

[Jelrak_TB]

No one* merits* heaven, TB. That is not a correct articulation of Catholic theology.

Does this mean that one might potentially fear being cast out at any time…? Or is it that once one has arrived one might ever expect to remain…?

On a side note, what is your avatar representing? I keep looking at it and trying to figure out its significance. It seems like a very peaceful dining room, but the candles are suggestive of something else…?

 

[PRmerger]

I appreciate the analogy…it certainly has some plausibility…yet such a scenario seemingly implies no means of imparting sufficient knowledge to the child so as to have them understand (which may well be the case with a 2 year-old, mind you…),

There is no amount of explaining the intricacies (and the sheer beauty!) of the immunologic system to a 5 yr old

Try it, and see if it convinces your 5 yr old.

As I already stated, there is no child who will listen to: “The original aim of the WHO Expanded Programme on Immunization (EPI) was to protect children against six childhood diseases: tuberculosis, diphtheria, neonatal tetanus, whooping cough, poliomyelitis and measles. Subsequently, others were added, including hepatitis B and Haemophilus influenzae type b. Combination vaccines that include several valences help ensure high vaccination coverage” and then say, “Oh, yes, Father! Now I understand. You are indeed loving and kind to have me immunized! Thanks for the explanation.”

And, in fact, the comparison between a 5 yr old and a human father, with an adult and our Heavenly Father is almost inutile, as the gap between the 5 yr old and his dad is finite…while the gap between the human person and God is infinite.

 

[PRmerger]

Does this mean that one might potentially fear being cast out at any time…? Or is it that once one has arrived one might ever expect to remain…?

No. There is no fear when one is in the presence of the Eternal Godhead.

On a side note, what is your avatar representing? I keep looking at it and trying to figure out its significance. It seems like a very peaceful dining room, but the candles are suggestive of something else…?

It is a picture of a patio.

I imagine all dialogue here as all of us sitting around this patio, drinking a cocktail, eating something deliciously unhealthy, and discussing religion.

 

[PRmerger]

Regardless, it would not be honest to claim that simply because God does not behave as might be expected that He equally not exist…

Egg-zactly.

seemingly it appears more to speak against the concept that He might truly have a meaningful relationship with individuals during the brief period in which their choices and interactions allegedly might make the most difference. For if one might seek to ask one’s father why, would one consider one’s father to be close and caring should he continuously fail to respond?

There is no answer which will appease the 5 yr old, is there?

You know that. You will never be able to talk the 5 yr old into understanding that you’re doing this for his own good, to protect him, because you love him.

All he knows is that you’re holding him down and making him suffer extremely.

 

[Jelrak_TB]

There is no amount of explaining the intricacies (and the sheer beauty!) of the immunologic system to a 5 yr old

Try it, and see if it convinces your 5 yr old.

As I already stated, there is no child who will listen to: “The original aim of the WHO Expanded Programme on Immunization (EPI) was to protect children against six childhood diseases: tuberculosis, diphtheria, neonatal tetanus, whooping cough, poliomyelitis and measles. Subsequently, others were added, including hepatitis B and Haemophilus influenzae type b. Combination vaccines that include several valences help ensure high vaccination coverage” and then say, “Oh, yes, Father! Now I understand. You are indeed loving and kind to have me immunized! Thanks for the explanation.”

And, in fact, the comparison between a 5 yr old and a human father, with an adult and our Heavenly Father is almost inutile, as the gap between the 5 yr old and his dad is finite…while the gap between the human person and God is infinite.

It is agreed that the gap must needs be very great, but equally might it not be assumed that the means for God to communicate this truth must also be considered to exist…?

 

[Jelrak_TB]

No. There is no fear when one is in the presence of the Eternal Godhead.

It is a picture of a patio.

I imagine all dialogue here as all of us sitting around this patio, drinking a cocktail, eating something deliciously unhealthy, and discussing religion.

It is very inviting…!

 

[Jelrak_TB]

Egg-zactly.

There is no answer which will appease the 5 yr old, is there?

You know that. You will never be able to talk the 5 yr old into understanding that you’re doing this for his own good, to protect him, because you love him.

All he knows is that you’re holding him down and making him suffer extremely.

Perhaps not, but seemingly it must be possible to offer him some comforting analogy that he might understand…?

 

[PRmerger]

It is agreed that the gap must needs be very great, but equally might it not be assumed that the means for God to communicate this truth must also be considered to exist…?

Ah…but the means does exist…it is called His Word.

#jesuschrist

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Finish line is in sight guys.

 

[Matthew_Light]

Thank you for this, Edwin.

It is strange indeed that one can be capable of denying immaterial reality while at the same time engaging in immaterial thought in order to arrive at that very conclusion.

Peace.

Steve

 

[Jelrak_TB]

With 15 posts to go it seems we must now choose our words very carefully…every statement must now be very meaningful and considered for maximum impact…!