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PRmerger
Guest
Just a FYI: it’s 1000-ish posts that’s the limit.With 15 posts to go it seems we must now choose our words very carefully…every statement must now be very meaningful and considered for maximum impact…!
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Eric_Hilbert
Guest
I don’t plan on moderating in the wee hours (EST), so keep going. I’ll close it in the morning.
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estesbob
Guest
As CS Lewis said the gates to hell are locked from the inside. People choose to go to hell-God does not send us there .
J
Jelrak_TB
Guest
Yet CS Lewis was not a Catholic…so is this the teaching of the Catholic Church…?
Further, why might individuals prefer to reside in Hell? How many criminals choose to reside in prison?
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PRmerger
Guest
This is the genetic fallacy you’re falling for again, TB.
Just because someone may not be Catholic doesn’t mean that everything he says is incorrect.
Heck, even the Reverend Fred Phelps believed that the Bible is the Word of God, and…
so do Catholics!
And you can believe that Fred Phelps was not a Catholic.
And, yes, what estesbob said is indeed the teaching of the Catholic Church.
Well, paraphrasing Peter Kreeft (who, incidentally, is a Catholic): we all do choose hell every day each and every time we sin, don’t we?
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Faithdancer
Guest
Since this thread is getting very close to dying a natural death, I will post my concluding remarks.
First, and again responding to the original post, atheists are created by God in His (spiritual) image, and as such are deserving of Christian love. We don’t have to like individual atheists, although certainly many have likeable personalities. Personally—and I think I said this much earlier—I wouldn’t cultivate a friendship with an atheist because he or she denies what is at the very core of my being. So my reasoning here is the same reason as to why no Christian should ever marry a non-believer. While it’s true that Jesus interacted regularly with sinners—we are not Jesus and we lack His perfection, to put it mildly.
In terms of evangelization, all Christians are called upon to do it. However I think it is a mistake to engage in endless, circular debates with atheists on their “playing field” of what they perceive as logic (and I’ve been guilty of that mistake on this thread, to be sure). Evangelism requires simply that we present the truth of Christ, answer any questions the atheist may have, but remain on the ground of Christian faith. I think this is particularly true on a Christian forum. Spending hours on the merry-go-round of atheist circular reasoning isn’t evangelism.
I see very few atheists here asking very few questions about the faith. Either they think they already know all they need to know, or they don’t care. Debating the atheist always seems to result in an impasse so long as the atheist refuses to accept faith as a source of understanding. However, “…faith is of an order other than philosophical knowledge which depends upon sense perception and experience and which advances by the light of the intellect alone. Philosophy and the sciences function within the order of natural reason; while faith, enlightened and guided by the Spirit, recognizes in the message of salvation the “fullness of grace and truth” (cf. Jn 1:14) which God has willed to reveal in history and definitively through his Son, Jesus Christ (cf. 1 Jn 5:9; Jn 5:31-32).” (Pope Saint John Paul II, Fides et Ratio 8)
As far as what I perceive as the atheist’s resistance to faith: there certainly seem to be trust issues at work. Yet paradoxically trust is required every day, in many moments throughout the day. It might be as simple as trusting that the driver in the next lane is not suddenly going to veer into you. In terms of trust in God: “By the authority of his absolute transcendence, God who makes himself known is also the source of the credibility of what he reveals. By faith, men and women give their assent to this divine testimony. This means that they acknowledge fully and integrally the truth of what is revealed because it is God himself who is the guarantor of that truth.” (ibid. 10)
I think that there is a strong element of fear present in many unbelievers, and this is a fear of surrendering one’s will, fear of becoming somehow enslaved to belief. Yet as the saint puts it: “…freedom is not realized in decisions made against God. For how could it be an exercise of true freedom to refuse to be open to the very reality which enables our self-realization? Men and women can accomplish no more important act in their lives than the act of faith; it is here that freedom reaches the certainty of truth and chooses to live in that truth.” (ibid. 11)
And in regard to the limitations of reason alone in comprehending the meaning of existence, “reason has its own specific field in which it can enquire and understand, restricted only by its finiteness before the infinite mystery of God.” (ibid. 13) Reason, then, rightly applied, can certainly take one far toward a recognition of God; however reason alone comes up short because our intellects are clouded by sin. The reason of the Christian is informed by his faith, and faith in turn is eminently reasonable.
God bless everyone here, believer and unbeliever alike!
First, and again responding to the original post, atheists are created by God in His (spiritual) image, and as such are deserving of Christian love. We don’t have to like individual atheists, although certainly many have likeable personalities. Personally—and I think I said this much earlier—I wouldn’t cultivate a friendship with an atheist because he or she denies what is at the very core of my being. So my reasoning here is the same reason as to why no Christian should ever marry a non-believer. While it’s true that Jesus interacted regularly with sinners—we are not Jesus and we lack His perfection, to put it mildly.
In terms of evangelization, all Christians are called upon to do it. However I think it is a mistake to engage in endless, circular debates with atheists on their “playing field” of what they perceive as logic (and I’ve been guilty of that mistake on this thread, to be sure). Evangelism requires simply that we present the truth of Christ, answer any questions the atheist may have, but remain on the ground of Christian faith. I think this is particularly true on a Christian forum. Spending hours on the merry-go-round of atheist circular reasoning isn’t evangelism.
I see very few atheists here asking very few questions about the faith. Either they think they already know all they need to know, or they don’t care. Debating the atheist always seems to result in an impasse so long as the atheist refuses to accept faith as a source of understanding. However, “…faith is of an order other than philosophical knowledge which depends upon sense perception and experience and which advances by the light of the intellect alone. Philosophy and the sciences function within the order of natural reason; while faith, enlightened and guided by the Spirit, recognizes in the message of salvation the “fullness of grace and truth” (cf. Jn 1:14) which God has willed to reveal in history and definitively through his Son, Jesus Christ (cf. 1 Jn 5:9; Jn 5:31-32).” (Pope Saint John Paul II, Fides et Ratio 8)
As far as what I perceive as the atheist’s resistance to faith: there certainly seem to be trust issues at work. Yet paradoxically trust is required every day, in many moments throughout the day. It might be as simple as trusting that the driver in the next lane is not suddenly going to veer into you. In terms of trust in God: “By the authority of his absolute transcendence, God who makes himself known is also the source of the credibility of what he reveals. By faith, men and women give their assent to this divine testimony. This means that they acknowledge fully and integrally the truth of what is revealed because it is God himself who is the guarantor of that truth.” (ibid. 10)
I think that there is a strong element of fear present in many unbelievers, and this is a fear of surrendering one’s will, fear of becoming somehow enslaved to belief. Yet as the saint puts it: “…freedom is not realized in decisions made against God. For how could it be an exercise of true freedom to refuse to be open to the very reality which enables our self-realization? Men and women can accomplish no more important act in their lives than the act of faith; it is here that freedom reaches the certainty of truth and chooses to live in that truth.” (ibid. 11)
And in regard to the limitations of reason alone in comprehending the meaning of existence, “reason has its own specific field in which it can enquire and understand, restricted only by its finiteness before the infinite mystery of God.” (ibid. 13) Reason, then, rightly applied, can certainly take one far toward a recognition of God; however reason alone comes up short because our intellects are clouded by sin. The reason of the Christian is informed by his faith, and faith in turn is eminently reasonable.
God bless everyone here, believer and unbeliever alike!
J
Jelrak_TB
Guest
I may assure you that I am not falling for CS Lewis…
It seems an interesting concept, but highly unlikely…
Even if such might be the case it seems very unlikely that one would choose an eternal position. If one might suffer from an inordinate desire for chocolate cake, would an offer to be given a lifetime supply be at all appealing if the provision called for its hourly consumption for the rest of time? Highly unlikely…
J
Jelrak_TB
Guest
Thank you…Since this thread is getting very close to dying a natural death, I will post my concluding remarks.
First, and again responding to the original post, atheists are created by God in His (spiritual) image, and as such are deserving of Christian love. We don’t have to like individual atheists, although certainly many have likeable personalities. Personally—and I think I said this much earlier—I wouldn’t cultivate a friendship with an atheist because he or she denies what is at the very core of my being. So my reasoning here is the same reason as to why no Christian should ever marry a non-believer. While it’s true that Jesus interacted regularly with sinners—we are not Jesus and we lack His perfection, to put it mildly.
In terms of evangelization, all Christians are called upon to do it. However I think it is a mistake to engage in endless, circular debates with atheists on their “playing field” of what they perceive as logic (and I’ve been guilty of that mistake on this thread, to be sure). Evangelism requires simply that we present the truth of Christ, answer any questions the atheist may have, but remain on the ground of Christian faith. I think this is particularly true on a Christian forum. Spending hours on the merry-go-round of atheist circular reasoning isn’t evangelism.
I see very few atheists here asking very few questions about the faith. Either they think they already know all they need to know, or they don’t care. Debating the atheist always seems to result in an impasse so long as the atheist refuses to accept faith as a source of understanding. However, “…faith is of an order other than philosophical knowledge which depends upon sense perception and experience and which advances by the light of the intellect alone. Philosophy and the sciences function within the order of natural reason; while faith, enlightened and guided by the Spirit, recognizes in the message of salvation the “fullness of grace and truth” (cf. Jn 1:14) which God has willed to reveal in history and definitively through his Son, Jesus Christ (cf. 1 Jn 5:9; Jn 5:31-32).” (Pope Saint John Paul II, Fides et Ratio 8)
As far as what I perceive as the atheist’s resistance to faith: there certainly seem to be trust issues at work. Yet paradoxically trust is required every day, in many moments throughout the day. It might be as simple as trusting that the driver in the next lane is not suddenly going to veer into you. In terms of trust in God: “By the authority of his absolute transcendence, God who makes himself known is also the source of the credibility of what he reveals. By faith, men and women give their assent to this divine testimony. This means that they acknowledge fully and integrally the truth of what is revealed because it is God himself who is the guarantor of that truth.” (ibid. 10)
I think that there is a strong element of fear present in many unbelievers, and this is a fear of surrendering one’s will, fear of becoming somehow enslaved to belief. Yet as the saint puts it: “…freedom is not realized in decisions made against God. For how could it be an exercise of true freedom to refuse to be open to the very reality which enables our self-realization? Men and women can accomplish no more important act in their lives than the act of faith; it is here that freedom reaches the certainty of truth and chooses to live in that truth.” (ibid. 11)
And in regard to the limitations of reason alone in comprehending the meaning of existence, “reason has its own specific field in which it can enquire and understand, restricted only by its finiteness before the infinite mystery of God.” (ibid. 13) Reason, then, rightly applied, can certainly take one far toward a recognition of God; however reason alone comes up short because our intellects are clouded by sin. The reason of the Christian is informed by his faith, and faith in turn is eminently reasonable.
God bless everyone here, believer and unbeliever alike!
J
Jelrak_TB
Guest
I have appreciated the efforts put into this discussion. It has been helpful to see the various proposed solutions put forth in so patient a manner.
I have especially appreciated the moderators allowing these topics and have been impressed by the civility.
As for my own response to the OP? How do I feel about atheists? I feel that some are very proud to have disproved God. I feel that some are pleased that He might not exist. I feel that some feel threatened by the concept, while others feel repulsed. I feel many have been reasonable in their assessments and have taken their position based on a rigid sense of honesty…while still others, such as myself, have taken the position with a great deal of reluctance.
I do not feel any one particular feeling towards atheists as they are too varied. Some I dislike. Some I distrust. Some I admire. Some I find thoughtful. There are some that I pity and some that I disdain.
I am a moral conservative and so fall into a small subset of atheists who believe that mankind is capable of sliding into depravity if its moral character is not maintained. I do not have a strictly humanistic solution for morality and so I look to religion for advice. I believe that Christians hold a certain truth in their belief in the sanctity of human life and its division from pure animalistic cravings, but I consider this truth equally to be universal and understandable from the vantage point of an animal becoming sentient and not wishing to return to the animal kingdom…yet there is a possibility that there is something more to this story and so in attempting to be honest I strive to seek out an answer.
I do not believe in God, but I often wish I could. I do not know what it would take to convince me, but so far I have not found the key…so until then I encourage my children to believe while I live this position outside of faith and outside of mainstream atheism.
I appreciate the temporary sanctuary of this site, but fear to argue too forcefully for my position since I view atheism as a hardship that I would not wish to share…I would not wish a silent reader of this thread to be convinced by my doubts…I would not wish to actively convince another…I do not even champion truth for truth’s own sake…I merely seek what should be the best path for mankind. So far atheism does not appear to be the vehicle that might convey the largest number to create the best society possible…yet religion also appears to offer a few flaws that at times cause some concern…but that is a completely different topic for a future discussion…
I have especially appreciated the moderators allowing these topics and have been impressed by the civility.
As for my own response to the OP? How do I feel about atheists? I feel that some are very proud to have disproved God. I feel that some are pleased that He might not exist. I feel that some feel threatened by the concept, while others feel repulsed. I feel many have been reasonable in their assessments and have taken their position based on a rigid sense of honesty…while still others, such as myself, have taken the position with a great deal of reluctance.
I do not feel any one particular feeling towards atheists as they are too varied. Some I dislike. Some I distrust. Some I admire. Some I find thoughtful. There are some that I pity and some that I disdain.
I am a moral conservative and so fall into a small subset of atheists who believe that mankind is capable of sliding into depravity if its moral character is not maintained. I do not have a strictly humanistic solution for morality and so I look to religion for advice. I believe that Christians hold a certain truth in their belief in the sanctity of human life and its division from pure animalistic cravings, but I consider this truth equally to be universal and understandable from the vantage point of an animal becoming sentient and not wishing to return to the animal kingdom…yet there is a possibility that there is something more to this story and so in attempting to be honest I strive to seek out an answer.
I do not believe in God, but I often wish I could. I do not know what it would take to convince me, but so far I have not found the key…so until then I encourage my children to believe while I live this position outside of faith and outside of mainstream atheism.
I appreciate the temporary sanctuary of this site, but fear to argue too forcefully for my position since I view atheism as a hardship that I would not wish to share…I would not wish a silent reader of this thread to be convinced by my doubts…I would not wish to actively convince another…I do not even champion truth for truth’s own sake…I merely seek what should be the best path for mankind. So far atheism does not appear to be the vehicle that might convey the largest number to create the best society possible…yet religion also appears to offer a few flaws that at times cause some concern…but that is a completely different topic for a future discussion…
J
JD1789
Guest
I don’t know if this helps, but the main reason I believe in God is because I wish he existed. For free-will to exist, God must exist. For me to make an act of faith requires an act of will that goes against what would otherwise be a completely mechanistic decision if God did not exists. For a long time my reason seemed to encourage me to doubt His existence. From here I use Paschal’s wager and have enough reasons to believe and embrace the greatest true myth, true fairy tell, and source of goodness, truth, and beauty that good ever exist.
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PRmerger
Guest
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PRmerger
Guest
Perhaps you should.I may assure you that I am not falling for CS Lewis…
I suggest reading this:
books.google.com/books?id=1DH1ZPyyTkIC&pg=PA303&lpg=PA303&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false
"We do not know how anyone could freely prefer hell to heaven, misery to joy, but it happens. It happens in every sin. We are spiritually insane! That’s what the doctrine of original sin implies."–Peter Kreeft**
I think, TB, you have not opened your eyes. People choose hell all the time.
To wit:
http://media.recovery.org/wp-content/uploads/crystal-meth-addiction.jpg
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Contarini
Guest
I don’t think there has been a formal statement, but Pope JPII said things to that effect, and it’s the common teaching of a lot of Catholic theologians, apologists, etc. In other words, it’s a step below official, binding teaching, but it’s certainly not unorthodox or odd from a mainstream Catholic perspective.
Hell is the rejection of God, the rejection of love. It is possible to shut yourself up in that condition and commit yourself to it so totally that there is no going back. We can hope and pray that no one will actually do this.
I recommend Jerry Walls, Hell: The Logic of Damnation on this subject. (Also not a Catholic
)Edwin
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Faithdancer
Guest
Eternal separation from God, indeed. Doesn’t Christ himself describe Hell as the “outer darkness,” where there will be “wailing and gnashing of teeth?” No demons with pitchforks, etc; that is a popular poetic conception advanced by Dante in La Divina Commedia (a poem I adore, by the way).I don’t think there has been a formal statement, but Pope JPII said things to that effect, and it’s the common teaching of a lot of Catholic theologians, apologists, etc. In other words, it’s a step below official, binding teaching, but it’s certainly not unorthodox or odd from a mainstream Catholic perspective.
Hell is the rejection of God, the rejection of love. It is possible to shut yourself up in that condition and commit yourself to it so totally that there is no going back. We can hope and pray that no one will actually do this.
I recommend Jerry Walls, Hell: The Logic of Damnation on this subject. (Also not a Catholic
Edwin
When one dies having rejected God, one is doomed to eternal rejection from God. 'Nuff said!
J
JustaServant
Guest
I’ll repost this as what will probably be the last post for this thread.I’d like to return to the OP’s question.
For about a decade I worked with, and later for, a self-described atheist named Rodney.
Rodney was a very intelligent black man with a background in the air force. I was a conservative Baptist in those days, so we had many spirited conversations.
On the positive side, Rodney taught me how to ask questions. How to ask them in such a way that it forced me dig deeper into my intellect and use rationality. In some ways, a piece of why I abandoned fundamentalism and became a Catholic again, I owe to him and those many talks we had. He also had an ethical nature that was, sorry to say, superior to the ‘born-again’ Christian supervisor he replaced. He wasn’t anti-Church, he just disliked hypocrisy. More than a few times I remember his reaction to the stupidity of employees by looking up and saying to the Deity he did not believe in “See? This is why I don’t believe!”His sense of humor got our office through many bad times.
On the negative side, Rodney never seemed to have any joy in his life. He went from one woman to the next without ever finding happiness with another human being. He had a negativity that was eating away at him. He had nothing to ‘latch onto’, no source of stability or permanence. His mother was a Christian who often prayed for him
Rodney died four years ago. I had lost touch with him after moving. I still occasionally remember Rodney when I pray the Rosary.
And I hope his mother never stopped praying either.
Catholics do not claim to know who goes to Hell. That is something reserved for Fundamentalists, who seem to love the prospect of people they do not like burning in Hell.
Wherever Rodney ended up is not for me to decide. As I said I fell out of touch with him for several years, who knows what happened during that time.
All I can say is that God is a God of Mercy and Love. Our atheist friends on this thread will never be convinced by slick arguments or an ‘ah ha’ moment. Jesus said they shall know we are Christians by our love, not by our apologetic techniques.
My atheist friends, when you come upon the God of mercy and love, THAT is when you will be convinced. How and when that happens, I don’t know. But it will change you forever.
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Eric_Hilbert
Guest
I want to thank all the participants in this thread for making this a case example of why I think our NCR crew are the best on CAF. 1000 posts on a formally banned topic without one infraction and only a few re-directions.
Great job guys.
Great job guys.
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