How do you feel about atheists?

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Lou2U said:
I agree with you that a religious belief will affect words and actions, and so will a lack of religious belief. But saying that a person does not deserve respect because they are not religious is offensive to those people and is way too over the top.

Lou
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The lack of belief in religion, to me, is quite telling of one’s motives. I disrespect atheistic persons for their adherence to Atheism, which is often associated with disagreeable ideologies, such as mortality being subjective, and immoral practices, such as abortion.
 
Faxero said:
Well, a person’s religious beliefs and values influence their words and actions. Thus, It would be reasonable to evaluate the morality and dispositions of human persons based on their religious convictions, or lack of them.

Even if the person in question does not seem to fulfill whatever religious convictions he might have, the religious convictions by themselves are telling, for they reveal what the person aims to become.

:nope: I don’t think MrEmpiricism is trolling. I occasionally lurk on Atheistic forums and they seem to hold this consensus.
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I know, that is why I said it is trolling. To come to a Catholic forum to just give the “party line”, and not converse, looks like trolling to me.

But I admit my judgement may have been too hasty. 🙂
 
HerCrazierHalf said:
First of all, is this thread getting a bit close to discussion of a “prohibited topic”?

I wonder the same. Part of my journey to understand. I have a handful of working theories. Perhaps the Christians here will charitably correct me if wrong but so far it seems to be one or more of these:
  1. God makes sense to them. A world without makes next to no sense.
  2. There is little no purpose to most/all things without God.
    2b) “good” is difficult to determine and/or do without God as a reference or source.
  3. To fill a need that apparently 90+% of people seem to have. This reason is not meant to address the validity of belief.
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Well, in all charity, your list is condescending.
 
Lou2U said:
The people I pity the most are those seen quite frequently on these forums asking “is ______ a sin?” because they are unable to tell whether they have just committed an offence or are scrupulous.

Lou
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I thought the same when I first started reading this forum. It is a good sign though, of love for God. You don’t want to offend those you love, and having a concern for the relationship with those whom you love, is not something to pity. The world could use a lot more of this type of concern.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Prayer doesn’t harm you. You don’t believe it does anything at all. So why be offended?
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I can’t speak for MrEmpiricism, but here’s my take on being told “I’ll pray for you.” One of the factors is the situation in when it is said. If I’m sick and someone tells me they’ll pray for me, that’s incredibly nice even though I myself don’t believe in it. It’s a hope for my well being.

From my perspective though and from other non-believers I talk to, we often hear “I’ll pray for you” at the end of a discussion about religion. Now each such discussion is different but I would say more often than not it’s a phrase thrown out not as a sincere desire for my well being (spiritual as opposed to physical) but as a kind of gotcha statement. The more heated the discussion beforehand the more condescending the statement may feel. Again, I’m not speaking for MrEmpiricism, but I know in my travels the phrase more often comes off as a “you ignorant fool” final word in an argument then as a “thank you for the talk and I hope all remains fine with you” end of discussion.
 
Mike_from_NJ said:
I can’t speak for MrEmpiricism, but here’s my take on being told “I’ll pray for you.” One of the factors is the situation in when it is said. If I’m sick and someone tells me they’ll pray for me, that’s incredibly nice even though I myself don’t believe in it. It’s a hope for my well being.

From my perspective though and from other non-believers I talk to, we often hear “I’ll pray for you” at the end of a discussion about religion. Now each such discussion is different but I would say more often than not it’s a phrase thrown out not as a sincere desire for my well being (spiritual as opposed to physical) but as a kind of gotcha statement. The more heated the discussion beforehand the more condescending the statement may feel. Again, I’m not speaking for MrEmpiricism, but I know in my travels the phrase more often comes off as a “you ignorant fool” final word in an argument then as a “thank you for the talk and I hope all remains fine with you” end of discussion.
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Perhaps that is the case, but perhaps not. There is no way to know for certain where someone’s heart is, particularly in online discussions.
 
HerCrazierHalf said:
How so? It is a reflection of the language I’ve seen from many Christians and Catholics here and elsewhere.
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Coming from an atheist perspective, there are conotations in your list that religion is a crutch for the weak minded. Something I’ve heard and read from atheists many times.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Coming from an atheist perspective, there are connotations in your list that religion is a crutch for the weak minded. Something I’ve heard and read from atheists many times.
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Obviously someone like me isn’t the best person to question you on this, but I think HCH’s list greatly resembles things that I’ve been told and asked here on CAF:
  1. I’ve been told repeatedly that thing like the universe, the origin of physics, the creation of man can only have come from a god; and those same people have trouble fathoming how I and others like me can believe they exist without a god.
    2 and 2a) I’ve been asked repeatedly how someone can have a moral framework without a god. When told what I and others get our morals it’s often met with disagreement.
  2. I’ve been told that each of us has a yearning for God and that non-believers will make futile attempts to fill that void with material things, but it can only be filled by God.
We might need some specifics as to what you see is condescending or misrepresentative of Catholics.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Perhaps that is the case, but perhaps not. There is no way to know for certain where someone’s heart is, particularly in online discussions.
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On a case by case basis this is fairly true, but when it occurs with enough frequency I feel it is safe to say that in at least some of the cases the offers of prayer are made derogatorily.
 
Mike_from_NJ said:
Obviously someone like me isn’t the best person to question you on this, but I think HCH’s list greatly resembles things that I’ve been told and asked here on CAF:
  1. I’ve been told repeatedly that thing like the universe, the origin of physics, the creation of man can only have come from a god; and those same people have trouble fathoming how I and others like me can believe they exist without a god.
    2 and 2a) I’ve been asked repeatedly how someone can have a moral framework without a god. When told what I and others get our morals it’s often met with disagreement.
  2. I’ve been told that each of us has a yearning for God and that non-believers will make futile attempts to fill that void with material things, but it can only be filled by God.
We might need some specifics as to what you see is condescending or misrepresentative of Catholics.
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It is in how atheists view these Catholic remarks. In my experience, the takeaway for atheists is confirmation that religion is a crutch, and people of faith just need some personal confidence in order to get over a reliance on something external to themselves. Celebrations all around when a person of faith leaves for atheism, because this person is now “self reliant” and “able to think fo themselves”. Which of course implies the person lacked these things previously.

So a list like this, presented in a discussion about atheists, has atheist connotations, and there is not an understanding of where the Catholic is coming from. We follow God in freedom, rely on God, but it is not a mentally unhealthy reliance.

But, I lived most of my life as an atheist. Catholicism, for me, is this huge, amazing, undiscovered country, that does not require I check my reason at the door. It is my atheists friends, who insist that reason is left behind for a religious crutch.

I’ve never heard otherwise from any atheist. So lists like this, I know from experience are shared among atheists as evidence for just how delusional people of faith are. Yet, really is no understanding as to what is actually going on with people of faith. Faith is very mysterious to an atheist, and the reason for faith has to be worked out. Of course, there is something wrong with people who have faith in God. Just look what they write at CAF.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Coming from an atheist perspective, there are conotations in your list that religion is a crutch for the weak minded. Something I’ve heard and read from atheists many times.
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There was no such connotation intended. Just simply that you view the world differently.
 
RebeccaJ said:
So, then all are?
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At no point whatsoever did I use the word all.

I said:
On a case by case basis this is fairly true, but when it occurs with enough frequency I feel it is safe to say that in at least some of the cases the offers of prayer are made derogatorily.
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It was asked why someone might take offense to being told that they would pray for the non-believer and I felt it important to note that it was not uncommon for the phrase to end a religious conversation, especially after a particularly testy exchange, not as a means of politeness but as a way to deride the other person. Again, I never said all at any time.
 
Mike_from_NJ said:
At no point whatsoever did I use the word all.

I said:

It was asked why someone might take offense to being told that they would pray for the non-believer and I felt it important to note that it was not uncommon for the phrase to end a religious conversation, especially after a particularly testy exchange, not as a means of politeness but as a way to deride the other person. Again, I never said all at any time.
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Ok, thanks.

Do you think that happened in this thread? Because I don’t. Which is why I aaked about all the time.
 
RebeccaJ said:
It is in how atheists view these Catholic remarks. In my experience, the takeaway for atheists is confirmation that religion is a crutch, and people of faith just need some personal confidence in order to get over a reliance on something external to themselves. Celebrations all around when a person of faith leaves for atheism, because this person is now “self reliant” and “able to think fo themselves”. Which of course implies the person lacked these things previously.

So a list like this, presented in a discussion about atheists, has atheist connotations, and there is not an understanding of where the Catholic is coming from. We follow God in freedom, rely on God, but it is not a mentally unhealthy reliance.
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I understand. I was raised Catholic and most of my family is Catholic. I firmly believe that reasonable people can come to different conclusions on large matters such as this, and would never denigrate a person solely for their religious beliefs.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Ok, thanks.

Do you think that happened in this thread? Because I don’t. Which is why I asked about all the time.
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Looking over the exchange I think MrEmpiricism’s exchange explaining that relying on self-evidence shows Thor’s existence in the same manner as Yahweh’s was quite reasonable. Faithdancer noted (in post 137) that such comparisons have been made in the past but he made no effort at all to refute them. Instead of going after MrEmpiricism’s points he went after MrEmpiricism’s character, calling him a sohpist, childish, and a provocateur. After that he told MrEmpiricism that he would pray for him. MrEmpiricism noted in a later post that he felt what Faithdancer wrote was patronizing. I can’t help but agree.
 
Mike_from_NJ said:
Looking over the exchange I think MrEmpiricism’s exchange explaining that relying on self-evidence shows Thor’s existence in the same manner as Yahweh’s was quite reasonable. Faithdancer noted (in post 137) that such comparisons have been made in the past but he made no effort at all to refute them. Instead of going after MrEmpiricism’s points he went after MrEmpiricism’s character, calling him a sohpist, childish, and a provocateur. After that he told MrEmpiricism that he would pray for him. MrEmpiricism noted in a later post that he felt what Faithdancer wrote was patronizing. I can’t help but agree.
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🤷 Faithdancer was spot on, in my estimation. If there is an atheist that doesn’t know comparing faith in God to Santa, the Easter Bunny, Zeuss, Thor…is not addressing what a person of faith experiences, but rather is denigrating their faith, then I might agree with you.

Points can be made without pushing well known buttons. Otherwise know as cheap shots. Usually meant to provoke. Obviously, the strongly held beliefs of Faithdancer were not taken seriously, let alone respected.

What else is there to do, but pray for those who offend you. Certainly, a fruitful conversation that reflects mutual respect is not going to occur.
 
Faxero said:
The lack of belief in religion, to me, is quite telling of one’s motives. I disrespect atheistic persons for their adherence to Atheism, which is often associated with disagreeable ideologies, such as mortality being subjective, and immoral practices, such as abortion.
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So you would disrespect someone based on the assumption that they subscribe to disagreeable ideologies? You wouldn’t try to find out what they believe before deciding not to give them respect?

I’m Agnostic, meaning I have a lack of knowledge in regards to a God. In your eyes, am I worthy of respect? What does me being Agnostic tell you about my motives?

Just curious 🙂

Lou
 
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