How do you fight liturgical abuse when

[Catholicguy]

Surely the Pope’s advisers could tell the bishop who organized the ‘Mass’ that there was not to be a carnival atmosphere. Like the president of the US or the queen of England goes somewhere and just puts up with whatever ceremony is put together. There exists an established protocol for official events and visits. Why the Vatican is permitting the laity to be scandalized by such ‘Masses’ and then putting out documents like Redemptionis Sacramentum which deal with abused of the Mass and expecting them to be obeyed? It looks like a case of say one thing and do another.

We old school Catholics (I am the same age as the modern state of Israel) have seen our sacred rites become corrupt roughly inverse to the proliferation of documents issuing from Rome.

We must wait on the Lord - and a new Pope.

 

[Peg]

It is easy to understand what God thinks of complainers from reading the book of Exodus. This pope was chosen by the Holy Spirit. He has authority over one billion people. Any of those people can choose to opt out by just claiming to be no longer Catholic. It is a lot easier to do than becoming not American. My point here is that taking a hard line with such a diverse group of people would not necessarily be effective.

Jesus said to let the little children come unto him. Many of the one billion Catholics are children in the faith. I believe that the Pope is correct in accepting them where they are and encouraging their growth in faith.

I am very tired of hearing this Pope being put down by people who claim to be Catholic. It show me their ignorance. I thank God for this holy man and all he has been able to accomplish.

If you do not like what he does, why not pray to God to ask Him how he feels about this Pope. Pray about the abuses you see that God would strengthen His church that all Catholics would come to love God enought that they would only want what is pleasing to God. A little fast and abstinence could not hurt.

 

[theMutant]

James_2:24:

You do not give enough credit to the “young” I am 25 years old and been back actively in the Church since 17. The younger crowd seems to put the middle-aged, older crowd to shame in terms of reverence. Many of us are going Eastern or Tridentine due to so many Latin Rite N.O. liturgies being hijacked.

Please accept my apologies. In re-reading my post, I realize that I worded it very poorly. It is a fact that many younger Catholics (and I am only 39) are VERY reverent at Mass; often more reverent than their elders. I had the privelige of going to the traditional Latin mass for several years and probably half of the people there were in their 20’s.

 

[Rae]

I didn’t see the ‘telecast’, but I would probably have ‘shuddered’ myself. But since I didn’t see it, and am taking your word for it, I would be reserved on judgement.

I think that this thread falls under an ‘it’s my opinion’ category, so I’d like to say that I feel, in general, uncomfortable with music that doesn’t ‘jive’ with the sacredness and awesomeness of being present before Christ Himself, in the Eucharist.
I was raised a Latin Rite/Roman Catholic and will always love it, however, I am now a Byzantine Catholic and love the Liturgy even more deeply due to it’s ‘sacred atmosphere’.
Music doesn’t change what happens at Liturgy (heaven touching down upon earth); however, it’s my opinion that when, in the presence of God Himself, music should lend itself to that reality.

When envisioning God, coming to us in His glory, I think of music that seems appropriate to that ‘scene’. And since He comes to us in the Eucharist at every Liturgy, I think the music should reflect some dignity, respect, and awe!

Just my opinion is all.

In conclusion, I’m not sure whether or not the term “liturgical abuse” can be enforced due to a ‘poor music’ choice or clapping or shouting during Liturgy. (Some Protestant denominations find shouting and clapping and all sorts of music genres acceptable during their ‘services’…however, most of them do not believe in the Eucharist (transubstantiation) as we do–so being that they do not recognize that ‘reality’, they tend to view ‘worship’ a different way, and it shows in shouting, clapping, and speaking loudly etc…)
We Catholics have a different attitude of what is ‘appropriate’ during Liturgical worship, since we believe that we are in the presence of Christ Himself!!! I think, if taken even more seriously, we would fall on our knees and stay there!
Glory to Jesus Christ!

 

[theMutant]

Rae:

I’m not sure whether or not the term “liturgical abuse” can be enforced due to a ‘poor music’ choice or clapping or shouting during Liturgy.

Actually, it can because the Missal for the Latin rite has instructions on what kind of music can be used during the Mass. One of those instructions is that all “secular” forms can not be used. The music at Mass must be sacred in its nature and chant, polyphony, and the use of the organ are all to be encouraged and given pride of place. The music is to lead the congregation to a deeper appreciation of the sacrednes of the *** and the mystery of the Eucharist. Pop music simply doesn’t fit the instructions.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

yinekka:

Surely the Pope’s advisers could tell the bishop who organized the ‘Mass’ that there was not to be a carnival atmosphere. Like the president of the US or the queen of England goes somewhere and just puts up with whatever ceremony is put together. There exists an established protocol for official events and visits. Why the Vatican is permitting the laity to be scandalized by such ‘Masses’ and then putting out documents like Redemptionis Sacramentum which deal with abused of the Mass and expecting them to be obeyed? It looks like a case of say one thing and do another.

Lex orandi lex credenti - as you pray so you believe.

Yinekka,

And the bishops so told could enforce the rule of no carnival atmosphere how? Blinking signs that say “No applause”??
The degree of control that any hierarch can exercise over a stadium or auditorium full of congregants is virtually nil.

Many years,

Neil

 

[cmom]

The Mass in a host country is put on by the local bishops council, not the Holy Father.

So yell at the Swiss.

 

[system]

James,

It is a genuine pleasure to read that you are young and reverent–that is a wonderful combination that I pray you will try to propogate to others around you.

As for the mass you are speaking of, I did not see it, but it sounds like it might have been a bit over the top. However, do not feel discouraged, there is an awful lot of great things happening in the Church today and you are evidence of that. It takes many years to turn this great ship called the Catholic Church–patience is needed and help in any way you can, with prayer and with service. The Holy See’ is already trying to find ways to lighten restrictions on saying the Latin Mass…one step at a time.

 

[yinekka]

The bishops would have had substantial notice that the Holy Father was visiting the country.

1. The priests of all parishes could have announced from the pulpit the correct behaviour at any Mass whether the pope is celebrant or not.
2. Announcements re behaviour could have been placed in secular and religious newspapers.
3. Signs could have been placed outside the arena.
4. If tickets had to be issued to control numbers on the tickets could have been printed the conduct expected.
5. Before the Mass began the people could have been reminded of the correct way to behave at Mass.

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

I have had the great honor of attending two open, outdoor papal Masses; one in New York and one in Ontario, Canada.

While the Holy Father’s reverence is unshakable, the mob was just that…a mob. There is such a mixture of people in attendance. Many are devout Catholics. Some are protestors, and I do not mean protestants. I mean actual protestors, there to detract from the Mass. Even great security measures don’t keep them all out.
Understand that people come from hundreds of miles to attend these Masses. (I rode in a school bus to one of them!) After arriving at the city where the Mass is to be celebrated, the people are herded to the site of the Mass. This may involve a complexity of mass-transit modes, and in Central Park, it meant winding our way through miles - literally of sidewalks and pathways, inching our way along, with thousands of people ahead of us, and thousands behind.

There were weird cults handing out tracts at Central Park, and in Ontario, a rock band set up near us with a huge screen which showed the papal Mass crowd behind them (as though the crowd had come to hear them play!) They were making some sort of video of themselves, and thought this crowd would make the perfect “backdrop.” In addition to that affront, the Holy Father said the Mass in Canada in both French and English, for the benefit of those who refuse to speak English. So, what did they do? Whenever the Pope spoke in English, the french-speaking attendees sitting around me chatted in their native tongue, drowning out the Holy Father’s words. Very rude, and of course, irreverent. But when he spoke in french, they shut right up and paid close attention! I barely heard and understood a word the Holy Father said, because of the many distractions.

Still, it was a grace to attend his Mass, because regardless of the rudeness of the attendees, he did celebrate a very holy Mass.

(And there were many saintly folks attending, too, but they basically went unnoticed,as saints so often do.)

So, what I’m trying to say here is, remember what the Holy Father came for: to celebrate a Holy Mass. He did his part. He is not in charge of crowd control. He has no control over the mobs of people who gather ~ for whatever reason ~ when he visits a particular city to celebrate Mass for the people.

A pastor in an enclosed church building with basically the same worshippers week in and week out has far greater ability to dictate whether or not clapping, screaming, certain music, etc. will take place.

Pax Christi. <><