How do you know God exists?

[Samuel_Monosov]

I assume you are familiar with at least basic modal logic, Kripke semantics, and possible world semantics, or you’ll not be able to understand any analytic philosophy of the last century

Unfortunately, no, I don’t. But I do know how to google things, at least. From Stanford’s philosophy page, I find:

From Stanford:

Then consider the following argument:

1. There is a possible world in which there is an entity which possesses maximal greatness.
2. (Hence) There is an entity which possesses maximal greatness.

Under suitable assumptions about the nature of accessibility relations between possible worlds, this argument is valid: from it is possible that it is necessary that p, one can infer that it is necessary that p. Setting aside the possibility that one might challenge this widely accepted modal principle, it seems that opponents of the argument are bound to challenge the acceptability of the premise.

And, of course, they do. Let’s just run the argument in reverse.

1. There is no entity which possesses maximal greatness.
2. (Hence) There is no possible world in which there is an entity which possesses maximal greatness.

Plainly enough, if you do not already accept the claim that there is an entity which possesses maximal greatness, then you won’t agree that the first of these arguments is more acceptable than the second. So, as a proof of the existence of a being which posseses maximal greatness, Plantinga’s argument seems to be a non-starter.

Perhaps somewhat surprisingly, Plantinga himself agrees: the “victorious” modal ontological argument is not a proof of the existence of a being which possesses maximal greatness. But how, then, is it “victorious”? Plantinga writes: “Our verdict on these reformulated versions of St. Anselm’s argument must be as follows. They cannot, perhaps, be said to prove or establish their conclusion. But since it is rational to accept their central premise, they do show that it is rational to accept that conclusion” (Plantinga 1974, 221).

So Plantinga himself says that this isn’t a proof. It just shows that belief in God is rational. It doesn’t show that not believing in God is irrational.

Now, since I don’t really understand the machinery, I can’t argue it. Since I don’t care to understand the machinery, it might be best to move on to classical arguments for God.

But I’m just pointing out that, from what little I do understand about the argument, as it’s communicated in a probably over-simple way, it’s not “100% Certainty”, or at least its author doesn’t think it is. The author of the argument doesn’t think the conclusion is established at all; rather the reasonableness of the conclusion is established.

But I already know that! I am well aware that belief in God can be a rational belief. It is simply a belief I do not share.

 

[Samuel_Monosov]

Now that that has been removed out of the way, if you would like me to attempt a classical proof (even if you tie my hands to Aristotelian syllogisms) such as the cosmological, ontological, argument from morality, principle of sufficient reason, the five ways, or even a teleological argument (I personally believe the teleological argument is extremely weak, essentially refuted by “the argument to poor design”, and am a poor defender of it in any case), I am more than happy to oblige, but I suggest we open another thread (something like: “Arguments for God: Cosmological. Point-Counterpoint” or something similar, if you get my gist) for it to be done in, as I am certain it will take many posts of back-and-forth (as you can’t raise objections as I go, only to the finished form), and would derail this thread completely.

Alright, I agree. This makes sense. I’ll start another thread about this topic (though it will have to be phrased carefully in order to comply with the forum rules). Probably tomorrow.

Again, thank you for your honesty: “this argument is over my head, and I don’t give a fig to bring it down to eye-level.” That’s rare, and befitting of a Christian!

You are welcome.

 

[NicoleVentura]

I don’t. It’s all about faith.

although of course, i can’t say that for everyone. I’m sure others have experienced paranormal things that would prove to them God exists.

I just haven’t experienced anything to prove his existence. The only thing I have experienced is the afterlife, which I crossed out all scientific explanations because they didn’t hold up.

I do believe in an afterlife. I know there is one. Ive seen it, ive heard it.

 

[gentle_atheist]

The only thing I have experienced is the afterlife, which I crossed out all scientific explanations because they didn’t hold up.

I do believe in an afterlife. I know there is one. Ive seen it, ive heard it.

Could you elaborate?

 

[NicoleVentura]

Could you elaborate?

Paranormal things have happened to me. Or just things that aren’t possible without a higher being.

Ill share one of them… It might seem ridiculous to you, but its not to me.

I was at home with my dog last winter, it was somewhere about 10 degrees out. Now this dog of mine will RUN literally RUN if he is ever let a chance outside without a leash. We have chains that we hook them up to, and we keep them right by the door. Our door is a slide door. Well, I don’t know exactly how, but once I opened it, he managed to slip out. Literally just dashed out the door. I freaked out and panicked. I didn’t have winter shoes at the time, because me being stupid, I wear flipflops year round. The reason is because in the winter, I don’t go outside except for walking into buildings, ect. So, I really had no reason to buy any. Yes, I know thats stupid, but at the time I had no shoes. There was snow covering the ground everywhere. I called his name, he did not come back, of course, which I knew he wouldn’t. I started saying “treats”, “want a treat”, because, he knows what that means and I thought it might make him come back, but it didn’t. After trying to get his attention, waving a toy, telling him I had treats, calling his name, I pretty much knew I was screwed. He was literally, all the way down the street. There was no way in heck I could catch him if I ran after him, but being desperate I thought i’d try anyways. Before I went to get my flipflops, as I watched him run away further and further, I prayed to God. I don’t usually ever ask him for things. Literally, ever, but my dogs mean the world to me, and I couldn’t stand to see them missing or hurt or anything. So being desperate, I prayed. I asked God to help me. My dog, was literally WAY at the end of the road, luckily it wasn’t too busy of a street, but I could see him all the way down there. I turned around to go get my flipflops to chase after him. As i turned around, I saw somebody, or something walk past me. It was like a white-ish type appearance that walked past. I was facing the opposite way from the door to go get my flipflops, but when this thing walked past, I turned around instantly, and then I saw my dog standing RIGHT THERE in the doorway. I just stood there in total shock. I didn’t know what to think. He was just standing there, staring at me. I stood there in amazement for about 5 seconds. I called his name, and he walked right through the door, went up to me and wagged his tail. I couldn’t believe it.

Honestly ever since then, I really have no doubt there is some sort of higher power that does help us. My story might seem dumb to you, I don’t care. It happened, and there is no way to explain it other than something supernatural. I have never forgot this experience and never will. If there is a God, surely they must know how important my dogs are to me. I prayed for a miracle and got one. Its not even possible without some sort of supernatural help. My dog was WAY down the street. You mean to tell me he got right to the door in 1 second? I couldn’t believe it. I was in total shock, and even remembering it, I still am. How its possible, I don’t know, but there must be something that was looking out for me. A God, a ghost, I don’t care what you call it. Think what you want, but there are tons of amazing things that have happened to people that just aren’t explainable.

 

[tonyrey]

I’m not willing to give the benefit of the doubt for other people’s experiences. I’m not willing to set myself up for belief. I’ll look, but I’m not going to give up healthy skepticism.

You are assuming it is healthy but if you are rational you can’t base your life on no beliefs or values whatsoever. The way you live reveals what you really believe…

 

[tonyrey]

I believe God exists because a Godless universe is nonsense!

 

[gentle_atheist]

Paranormal things have happened to me. Or just things that aren’t possible without a higher being.

Ill share one of them… It might seem ridiculous to you, but its not to me.

Thanks for sharing that experience with us, Nicole. I can imagine how your heart sank when your dog got loose and how happy you were when he came back. Dogs are the finest creatures on earth, bar none.

 

[gentle_atheist]

I believe God exists because a Godless universe is nonsense!

Or perhaps you believe because God wants you to believe. In other words, assuming that God exists, Calvinism may offer the best explanation. It certainly is the simplest. God elects certain people for salvation, He gives them whatever graces they need to be saved, and to hell with the rest of us.

 

[fhansen]

Or perhaps you believe because God wants you to believe. In other words, assuming that God exists, Calvinism may offer the best explanation. It certainly is the simplest. God elects certain people for salvation, He gives them whatever graces they need to be saved, and to hell with the rest of us.

Catholicism also teaches we’re given grace, but all of us are given this fair shake in some manner or another. In this case then it’s ‘to hell with none’, unless that’s what we want.

 

[Khalid]

Or perhaps you believe because God wants you to believe. In other words, assuming that God exists, Calvinism may offer the best explanation. It certainly is the simplest. God elects certain people for salvation, He gives them whatever graces they need to be saved, and to hell with the rest of us.

Quite a pithy statement, albeit Calvinism is actually an extremely complex belief system with an even more complex soteriology.

 

[in_servitude]

I’ve experienced the supernatural, both the divine and the sinister.

 

[Scribblerian]

I do not know if God exists. If he exists, I’m as blind to him as I am to microwaves, and as deaf to him as I am to dog whistles. If he does not, it makes no matter. I see no evidence for him one way or the other.

Simply put, God is a non-entity in my life.

So you can understand my frustration at being drawn to the Church even as I am wholly disconnected from anything resembling God.

 

[fhansen]

I do not know if God exists. If he exists, I’m as blind to him as I am to microwaves, and as deaf to him as I am to dog whistles. If he does not, it makes no matter. I see no evidence for him one way or the other.

Simply put, God is a non-entity in my life.

So you can understand my frustration at being drawn to the Church even as I am wholly disconnected from anything resembling God.

I guess I’d be surprised, too. Why, if there is no God, do you suppose you’d be drawn to the Church?

 

[endoentropism]

I guess I’d be surprised, too. Why, if there is no God, do you suppose you’d be drawn to the Church?

I hope the mods forgive this double account; I realized I misspelled “Scriblerian” and it was like a thorn in my eye when I looked at it.

Anyhow.

My attraction to the Church is manifold, though I suppose the two biggest draws are the sense of community and the apparent moral and philosophical framework that demands you do in addition to abstain. What I mean is – in a secular society, laws are essentially prohibitive; “If you do not do X, Y, and Z, you are a good person!” What is missing from this is an expectation of what you should do (as opposed to what you should not).

Religion is a prescription for this. It offers a framework for how to live a Good life as opposed to how to live a law-abiding life. Catholicism in particular seems to offer a relatively conservative and inert ideological framework which is not (as) beholden to the Cults of Personality you find in many protestant denominations. As I understand it, Catholicism will hold you to account in a way not nearly as wishy-washy as a Protestant church that asks only that you say a prayer before bed.

edit:
Though I should clarify that it’s not the case that I do not think there is a God. I don’t know if there is.

 

[TimothyH]

I believe that’s called theoria.

Yea, I’m out of my league here on a philosophy forum. I am struggling with the use of these terms in a philosophical context, and am currently reading Diadochus of Photike and have just ordered a book of some of the writings of Symeon the New Theologian.

Thanks for the correction. I would not be adverse to a futher explanation of such terminology.

My point was that you can’t put a direct personal experience of God, something that leaves a taste in your mouth that you never forget, into a neat little category.

-Tim-

 

[Sneaux]

Every time I pray my prayers get answered. When I’m scared I’ll pray, and comfort will come over me, that says “Every thing will be okay” and when you look at the world around you, tall beautiful mountains, the ocean, newborn babies, and think about how everything works out, there has to be someone in charge of it all. People talk about how everything is a coincidence…the world, the human race, and every living thing is way too complicated and beautiful to be a simple coincidence.

 

[NicoleVentura]

Thanks for sharing that experience with us, Nicole. I can imagine how your heart sank when your dog got loose and how happy you were when he came back. Dogs are the finest creatures on earth, bar none.

He didn’t come back. He was standing there 1 second after being all the way at the end of the street.

 

[tonyrey]

I believe God exists because a Godless universe is nonsense!

Calvinism is a distortion of Christianity. Jesus didn’t die to save a set of puppets…

 

[tonyrey]

I do not know if God exists. If he exists, I’m as blind to him as I am to microwaves, and as deaf to him as I am to dog whistles. If he does not, it makes no matter. I see no evidence for him one way or the other.

Simply put, God is a non-entity in my life.

So you can understand my frustration at being drawn to the Church even as I am wholly disconnected from anything resembling God.

Your attraction may be emotional rather than rational…

But Pascal wrote:

“Le cœur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connaît point.”

(The heart has its reasons, which reason does not know. )