How do you know that the saints can hear you?

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I have studied the issue of prayer to saints quite a bit and I mostly understand it. My only question is, how do we know the saints can hear us? Is that in the Bible, and where?

God bless you,
Grace
 
“One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.”

catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints
 
In the Book of Revelation by St John.

We see there is the 12 elders that are Saints in Heaven that approach the Throne of GOD with bowls full of incense. And St John tells us that the incense are the prayers of the “saints”. The saints are us that pray to them and to God.

We also see the Angels doing the same.

It is obvious that the Saints and the Angels in Heaven can hear our requests for help and it has to be because God allows this.

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when I pray ‘tony Tony come around…something is lost and can’t be found’,…sometimes I then remember where my missing item is a little while later. He obviously heard me and gave a little nudge to God to help me find my missing keys or check book or whatever.

Plus, these are special men and women who are close to God, they bring our prayers to him.
 
I have studied the issue of prayer to saints quite a bit and I mostly understand it. My only question is, how do we know the saints can hear us? Is that in the Bible, and where?

God bless you,
Grace
In the gospels Jesus mentions that when a sinful man repents the angels and saints in heaven rejoice. Luke 15:7, 10. They are able to hear the sinner’s prayers; therefore they are able to hear our prayers.
 
God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in heaven has any greater access to God’s throne than we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).
The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in heaven to pray for him. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth.
 
Because the Church that Jesus founded tells us so through Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

From the Catechism…
II. THE COMMUNION OF THE CHURCH OF HEAVEN AND EARTH
954 The three states of the Church. “When the Lord comes in glory, and all his angels with him, death will be no more and all things will be subject to him. But at the present time some of his disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory, contemplating 'in full light, God himself triune and one, exactly as he is”’:492
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All of us, however, in varying degrees and in different ways share in the same charity towards God and our neighbors, and we all sing the one hymn of glory to our God. All, indeed, who are of Christ and who have his Spirit form one Church and in Christ cleave together.493
955 "So it is that the union of the wayfarers with the brethren who sleep in the peace of Christ is in no way interrupted, but on the contrary, according to the constant faith of the Church, this union is reinforced by an exchange of spiritual goods."494
956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness. . . . They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus . . . . So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."495
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Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life.496
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I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth.497
957 Communion with the saints. "It is not merely by the title of example that we cherish the memory of those in heaven; we seek, rather, that by this devotion to the exercise of fraternal charity the union of the whole Church in the Spirit may be strengthened. Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself"498:
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We worship Christ as God's Son; we love the martyrs as the Lord's disciples and imitators, and rightly so because of their matchless devotion towards their king and master. May we also be their companions and fellow disciples!499
958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and ‘because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins’ she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.
959 In the one family of God. "For if we continue to love one another and to join in praising the Most Holy Trinity - all of us who are sons of God and form one family in Christ - we will be faithful to the deepest vocation of the Church."501
492 LG 49; cf. Mt 25:31; 1 Cor 15:26-27; Council of Florence (1439):DS 1305.
493 LG 49; cf. Eph 4:16.
494 LG 49.
495 LG 49; cf. 1 Tim 2:5.
496 St. Dominic, dying, to his brothers.
497 St. Thérèse of Lisieux, The Final Conversations, tr. John Clarke (Washington: ICS, 1977), 102.
498 LG 50; cf. Eph 4:1-6.
499 Martyrium Polycarpi, 17:Apostolic Fathers II/3,396.
500 LG 50; cf. 2 Macc 12:45.
501 LG 51; cf. Heb 3:6.
 
It’s found in the book of revelations. God works through people; this is well known. His word is clear on this.
 
God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in heaven has any greater access to God’s throne than we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).
The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in heaven to pray for him. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth.
Respectfully, Revelation 5:8 states:
8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.

If “the prayers of God’s people” means something other than our prayers, what exactly does this passage mean? Are they praying for themselves? For what purpose, if they are already in heaven? Let’s go a step further here:

13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

Does this not further indicate that those in heaven indeed hear our prayers on earth? It clearly sates they hear every creature both in heaven and on earth, and by stating ‘Amen’, they are agreeing to our prayers. I don’t understand how you have concluded that the bible does not support this when it is right there in black and white ink.
 
Apparently, God’s promise that there would be no sorrow in Heaven doesn’t apply to Catholic Saints (I see many places in the NT where Saints are said to be “asleep in Christ”. How loud do you have to pray to “wake up” someone that’s “asleep in Christ”?). I can’t help but notice that the elders in Revelation (not Revelations) offering the golden bowls are ASSUMED to be saints (which ones? Seems it would be important to know which saints held these eldership positions, especially if God allows us to pray to them directly and ask for their intercession), and it is ASSUMED that they got these prayers directly from people on Earth (where did they get their harps? UPS maybe?). Using the parable in Luke 15 doesn’t work when the entire parable is read IN CONTEXT. When you do this, you will notice that it is the Good Shepherd (Jesus) that tells everyone to rejoice with Him, and why.

The best Biblical support the Catholic Church can offer to support this teaching are very weak “indications”. What it ultimately comes down to is - this is an acceptable practice because the Church says so!
 
God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in heaven has any greater access to God’s throne than we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).
The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in heaven to pray for him. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth.
Hebrews 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,

Witnesses must be able to witness something, they must be able to hear and see. Your statement about only God hearing our prayers is patently false.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.

The elders (i.e. the 12 Apostles and 12 Patriarchs) are presenting our prayers to God.

*Luke 16:19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, **‘Father Abraham, have pity on me **and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ 25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ 27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’” *

Jesus Himself teaches about the Bosom of Abraham, and how Abraham not only hears the petition from the rich man in hades, AND answers him.

*2 Tim 1:16 May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. 17 On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. 18 May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus.

2 Tim 4:19 Greet Priscilla and Aquila and the household of Onesiphorus. 20 Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus sick in Miletus. *

Here St. Paul prays for the soul of someone who had died.

Maybe you should consider that your perception of the connections between the Body of Christ here on earth and the Body of Christ that is in Heaven and Purgatory?
 
Apparently, God’s promise that there would be no sorrow in Heaven doesn’t apply to Catholic Saints (I see many places in the NT where Saints are said to be “asleep in Christ”. How loud do you have to pray to “wake up” someone that’s “asleep in Christ”?). I can’t help but notice that the elders in Revelation (not Revelations) offering the golden bowls are ASSUMED to be saints (which ones? Seems it would be important to know which saints held these eldership positions, especially if God allows us to pray to them directly and ask for their intercession), and it is ASSUMED that they got these prayers directly from people on Earth (where did they get their harps? UPS maybe?). Using the parable in Luke 15 doesn’t work when the entire parable is read IN CONTEXT. When you do this, you will notice that it is the Good Shepherd (Jesus) that tells everyone to rejoice with Him, and why.

The best Biblical support the Catholic Church can offer to support this teaching are very weak “indications”. What it ultimately comes down to is - this is an acceptable practice because the Church says so!
“Asleep in Christ” is just a euphemism for those who have died and gone to Heaven (or Purgatory first). As to the elders:

*Rev 5:8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the **twenty-four elders **fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. *

The 24 elders are the 12 Apostles and the 12 Patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel. I’m not sure what your UPS comment has to do with the discussion. Seems a little petty and insulting.

Your comment about Luke 15 doesn’t negate the point made. They were pointing out that those in Heaven are aware of the repentance of everyone who repents. Of course that awareness is dependent upon Christ, since even our existence is dependent upon Christ. But the point was made that it proves that those in Heaven are aware of our prayers. This is explicit.
 
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zz912:
The 24 elders are the 12 Apostles and the 12 Patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel. I’m not sure what your UPS comment has to do with the discussion. Seems a little petty and insulting.
Since the writer of the Scripture, who was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, didn’t tell us who these 24 elders were, how do you know they’re the 12 patriarchs and 12 apostles? While I’m at it, where’s Mary? Isn’t she offering up prayers as well? If 12 of these are apostles, which ones? Was Paul one of the 12 elders? Or Matthias (who replaced Judas)? And again, how do you know?

The comment about UPS was to show that these elders also had harps, but we’re not told where they got these. It seems clear to me that the harps and golden bowls were given to them by God to be offered and used at the appropriate time.
Your comment about Luke 15 doesn’t negate the point made. They were pointing out that those in Heaven are aware of the repentance of everyone who repents. Of course that awareness is dependent upon Christ, since even our existence is dependent upon Christ. But the point was made that it proves that those in Heaven are aware of our prayers. This is explicit.
It only doesn’t negate the point when you IGNORE CONTEXT!!! Never mind that it’s a parable, there’s still the fact that the people know BECAUSE Jesus told them. This Scripture does NOT prove that those in Heaven can hear our prayers and it is not explicit!
 
God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in heaven has any greater access to God’s throne than we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).
The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in heaven to pray for him. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth.
I’m going to pray for you anyway, here and hopefully in the world to come.
 
God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in heaven has any greater access to God’s throne than we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).
The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in heaven to pray for him. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth.
Welcome to the Forums.

Others have given you Scriptural foundations for why all Christians (be they Catholic or not) are members of the Body of Christ, living or not.

Here’s a question you may not have considered. Have you ever asked a fellow Christian to pray *for *you, or you offer to pray for them?

Who are you praying to? Yourselves? Of course not. Why did someone ask you to pray for them? Aren’t you being a mediator between your friend and God?

Of *course *you are. This is how it is meant to be.

Catholics still hold to the ancient meaning of the word, “pray,” which basically means, “To tell.” When we pray for each other, we ourselves don’t do anything except to offer our voices to the One who Listens: God. There is a difference between prayer and worship, else, anyone who asks you to pray for them or vice versa is committing the sin of idolatry.

Catholics ask (through prayer, a form of spiritual communication) for others on earth and in heaven to join their hopes and desires to God. God and *only *God can make the prayers come true. Prayers to saints to help with this and that can only work if God wills it. Saints just have an upper hand as they are in heaven and clearly can “bend God’s ear” a little more than us on earth.

Christians aren’t and were never meant to live on a spiritual island, speaking to God and God alone. The Body of Christ is a family. We look out for each other. Prayer, as St. Paul has repeatedly spoken of in Scripture, unites us through Christ (the ultimate and primary mediator, where all prayer leads) and helps us in salvation.

This principle is also why we hold the Blessed Virgin in high regard. We don’t pray to Mary as we do to God–that’s improper. We ask Mary for her prayers, joining her prayers to our own to send to God, as you could ask others here on earth to pray to God for His guidance. It’s simple, really.
 
Apparently, God’s promise that there would be no sorrow in Heaven doesn’t apply to Catholic Saints
I fail to see the significance of this. Why would not experiencing sorrow prevent the saints from praying and interceding for us? Why would praying for us mean they have sorrow? Hebrews 7:25 tells us that at least Jesus is in Heaven interceding for us. That doesn’t make Him lose the happiness of heaven. Why would it not be the same for the saints?
(I see many places in the NT where Saints are said to be “asleep in Christ”. How loud do you have to pray to “wake up” someone that’s “asleep in Christ”?).
Being asleep in Christ is not meant to say anything about the state of the soul, it doesn’t imply that the soul is unconscious. It’s meant to emphasize the temporary nature of death. The dead will rise again.

If it’s true that when we die, we are unconscious, how is it then that Jesus, after he died but before He rose, went and “preached to the spirits in prison” as Peter tell us in 1 Peter 3:19? You can’t preach anything to a sleeping person. They can’t hear you. How loud did Jesus have to yell to wake them up? 😉
I can’t help but notice that the elders in Revelation (not Revelations) offering the golden bowls are ASSUMED to be saints (which ones? Seems it would be important to know which saints held these eldership positions, especially if God allows us to pray to them directly and ask for their intercession),
If anyone is in Heaven, they are saints. Nothing unclean can be in heaven as Rev 21:27 tells us. And no, it’s not important to know specifically which saints they are. The point of John’s vision is not to give us the attendance sheet of Heaven, but to show us the worship of Heaven. He doesn’t tell us the names of the angels either, yet that doesn’t mean they’re not really in heaven or that they are unimportant to our lives.
and it is ASSUMED that they got these prayers directly from people on Earth (where did they get their harps? UPS maybe?).
Where else are the prayers coming from? The point is they are bringing prayers from other people to the throne of God. That’s intercession. The harps are obviously symbolic. As are the incense and the bowls and the crowns and even the throne of God and the Lamb. Revelation is full of symbolic imagery to convey spiritual realities. I don’t quite see what your point is making that joke. It’s not like anyone here actually believes there are physical harps in heaven.
Using the parable in Luke 15 doesn’t work when the entire parable is read IN CONTEXT. When you do this, you will notice that it is the Good Shepherd (Jesus) that tells everyone to rejoice with Him, and why.
So you’re saying, Jesus makes known through His divine power to the saints in Heaven what is going on earth? What’s to say He doesn’t do that when we pray to saints? Maybe He gives them the knowledge of what we need? :yup:

You might respond that then what’s the point? But remember, Jesus already told us our Father knows what we need before we ask it. Yet He wants us to pray for ourselves and for others anyway. Why? Because He wants us to be involved in each other’s lives. He wants to use us as His instruments, as His fellow workers.

We are told that we can’t say to any member of the Body of Christ, “I have no need of you” (1 Cor 12:21) We need ALL the Body of Christ, we are intimately connected to each other through Christ. That includes the Saints. There’s only one body of Christ. Not one on earth and one in heaven.
The best Biblical support the Catholic Church can offer to support this teaching are very weak “indications”. What it ultimately comes down to is - this is an acceptable practice because the Church says so!
Yes, you’re right, ultimately the authority of the Church is why I accept this doctrine. But there are things you accept in this way as well. There’s only very weak “indications” about the Trinity in Scripture. Sure, sometimes Jesus makes claim that only make sense if He were God, but other times He says things like, “Why do you call me good, no one is good but God alone” which look pretty much like a denial of divinity. Can you honestly say from just reading Scripture alone, without any preconceived tradition, that you would believe in the Trinity? Or perhaps do you believe it because the Church taught you that?

Furthermore, there is not a shred of evidence in the Bible that shows that 3rd John is the inspired word of God. Zip. It doesn’t even mention the name of Jesus. But if you believe it is part of the New Testament, then ultimately what it comes down to is you accept it as such because the Church says so.:yup:
 
I have an anecdotal story to tell…
About 2 years ago my husband and I were having a huge struggle in our marriage. My husband was laid off from his job. He was severely depressed. We were struggling to pay bills. We were arguing daily and I was only just returning back to the church. This was probably the lowest point that we were having in our marriage. I had finished reading a biography about St Monica, the mother of St Augustine. Who also had to overcome great struggles in her marriage. At the end of another one of our arguments I felt that I was at the end of my rope, and I walked away wondering how much more I could take. I was alone and in tears, when it occurred to me that I wanted a divorce, I don’t think I would have gone through with it. But that was the thought that had stuck in my head at that time. So in my frustration, tears and anger I asked St Monica. “St Monica, Do you think I should divorce my husband.” And a woman’s voice that was very clear, strong, and firm immediately responded to me. The woman’s voice said. “Noooooo.” (I just want you to know that I am not prone to hallucinations) And so I pushed divorce out of my mind prayed instead for the virtue of perseverance. That was exactly what I needed at the time and the voice was right, divorce was not the answer. So how do I know that that the Saints can hear me? Because they can. They are part of the body of Christ, they are alive in heaven, and just because someone is alive in heaven does not mean that their prayer life ends.

For example in Luke 15:7 we are told by Jesus:
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

If the Saints in heaven are not aware of the struggle that we are having during our earthly lives, then how can they rejoice over the repentance of just one sinner?
 
I have studied the issue of prayer to saints quite a bit and I mostly understand it. My only question is, how do we know the saints can hear us? Is that in the Bible, and where?

God bless you,
Grace
From Catholic Answers.org
Can They Hear Us?

One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
 
Since the writer of the Scripture, who was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, didn’t tell us who these 24 elders were, how do you know they’re the 12 patriarchs and 12 apostles? **While I’m at it, where’s Mary? ** Isn’t she offering up prayers as well? If 12 of these are apostles, which ones? Was Paul one of the 12 elders? Or Matthias (who replaced Judas)? And again, how do you know?

The comment about UPS was to show that these elders also had harps, but we’re not told where they got these. It seems clear to me that the harps and golden bowls were given to them by God to be offered and used at the appropriate time.

It only doesn’t negate the point when you IGNORE CONTEXT!!! Never mind that it’s a parable, there’s still the fact that the people know BECAUSE Jesus told them. This Scripture does NOT prove that those in Heaven can hear our prayers and it is not explicit!
Uhmm The book of Revelation was written by the Apostle John and the Virgin Mary is right there in Chapter 12:1

And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
She is the mother of the King. There is no greater position for a human to have. Remember that.

As for the Elders before the Throne of God, you need to remember all the Patriarchs of our Faith. Abraham, Jacob and his 12 sons, Moses and all the Prophets that came teaching us about God. They are all in Heaven serving God.
There is no shortage of “Elders”

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