How do you know the Bible is the word of God

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You can always do multiple quotes. it’s way easier to read than putting your text into the quote box, which just makes it look like you quoted without responding.
let me see if i can do it that way. yeah, works, thanks!
So then, shouldn’t we follow the infallible Church that Christ established, instead of a fallible man, or any fallible church? It makes no sense to trade an equal weight of gold for dross - why would anyone trade God’s One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church for any man-made church? :confused:
no it wouldn’t make any sense, if i believed that the Roman Catholic Church was infallible. But i don’t think it is infallible either; come on now, you knew my answer to that, didn’t you:)

i think the holy apostolic faith as taught by Jesus to the Apostles is infallible, and recorded inerrantly in the scriptures (or at least the autographs, but that is another discussion), but there were only 12 apostles. It is my understanding that much catholic doctrine was not revealed to the Pope or the magisterium or whoever (I am no expert on these details) until hundreds or thousands of years later. I think Christ taught us all that was essential with no secret or unrevealed knowledge to be revealed to persons coming after the apostles; nor do I believe the Apostles were taught something essential to faith and just decided not to include it in their scriptural writings.

Fire away! (but remember to be gentle and respectful, as per Peter:D)
 
billt9;10111074]let me see if i can do it that way. yeah, works, thanks!
no it wouldn’t make any sense, if i believed that the Roman Catholic Church was infallible. But i don’t think it is infallible either; come on now, you knew my answer to that, didn’t you:)
i think the holy apostolic faith as taught by Jesus to the Apostles is infallible, and recorded inerrantly in the scriptures (or at least the autographs, but that is another discussion), but there were only 12 apostles.
Only if you don’t mind me asking: How is doctrinal truth even knowable in the protestant sphere considering (as you have pointed out) - the fact that the infallible holy bible via private interpretation, is the model adopted and used, coupled with the fact that no one within the protestant sphere claims to be able to infallibly interpret the bible? For example, are Christians belonging the the Lutheran church correct about the Eucharist or are Evangelical Christians correct about the commemorative, symbolic nature of the Eucharist?🙂
 
Watch Poguy, with this post of yours above, you have unearthed a lot of contradictions within the gospels. Just to mention two of them, you say that Jesus was announced by Gabriel to “rule over the house of Jacob forever” and he didn’t rule for even a day. And the second is about Jesus speaking of salvation to the Samaritan woman at the well of Jacob.
According to Mat. 10:5,6 before sending his disciples on a mission to announce salvation
to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, he forbade them to go to the Gentiles and not even enter a Samaritan town. Then, as soon as the disciples left, he goes to have a chat with a Samaritan woman to speak to her about salvation? What happened? Was he behaving like the preacher that says: “Do what I say but not what I do because I am a sinner too?” To prevent exposing Jesus to such a fiasco, he is better off if we take that dialogue as a parable rather than a real event.
Apparent contradictions. First, one must understand that Jesus’ Kingdom is not of this world - it is an eternal Kingdom, existing even after the earth no longer exists (John 18:36). The House of Jacob exists in both time and eternity, thus He rules over it forever. Regarding the incident at the well, Jesus had not yet been rejected by His own people at that time. Thus, He sent His Apostles only to the lost sheep of Israel (Matthew 10:5-6, Matthew 15:24). Any preaching He did amongst the Samaritans was a prophecy of salvation being offered to them after His own death. Later, after he had suffered rejection and crucifixion, He sent the Apostles to Judea (Isrealites), and to “Samaria and to the ends of the earth” (Gentiles) (Acts 1:8). There is neither contradiction, nor hypocrisy.
 
PS trying to master this colored text way to respond more clearly:)
What I mean is, how can we disregard any of God’s truth - especially the vast majority that is not written? Is it worthless because it is not written? No. Is it lost? No. Did it return to God void, making Isaiah 55:11 a false scripture? No. Jesus, quoting Deuteronomy 8:3, said that “man lives not on bread alone, but on every word that flows from the mouth of God” (Matthew 4:4). OK, every word of God is not in the bible. What now?

Did Jesus fail? No! Did He lie? No! He left an authoritative Church behind him (Matthew 18:17). That you choose to reject that Church matters not one bit to God’s truth. You simply accept far less of God’s word than Catholic and Orthodox Christians do. Do you possess “sufficient” word from the bible alone? I would not take that risk. Is scripture alone “sufficient”? Jesus did not come that we might have “sufficient” life - He came that we might have life, and life in abundance (John 10:10).

As well, if you only have the written word, realize that it was written only to confirm the oral Apostolic teaching. What? Read the prologue to Luke (Luke 1:1-4). In it, we see that Theophilus learned nothing - zero, zip, nada, from Luke’s Gospel. Luke wrote it only to confirm the Apostolic Tradition that had already fully formed Theophilus - and which formed him far better than scripture alone ever could.

The bible cannot answer direct questions about what it means. Either man’s ego interpreters it to his own destruction (2 Peter 3:15-16), or the Church that Jesus Christ founded interprets it for all time (Matthew 18:17, Luke 24:45).

Look at Acts 15. Paul, a man of the scriptures, chose to disregard the scriptures on the subject of circumcision. He went to the Apostolic Church for a final and forever binding answer. Paul listened to the Church over and above the scriptures - all of which said that circumcision was necessary. Christ gave His Church the authority to bind and loose (Matthew 16:19, 18:18). The Church loosed the scriptural requirement for circumcision. The Church has actual authority - if it does not, you’d better find a Rabbi with a scalpel, and quick!
 
i think the holy apostolic faith as taught by Jesus to the Apostles is infallible, and recorded inerrantly in the scriptures
Catholics would agree with you.
but there were only 12 apostles.
Yes. And…
It is my understanding that much catholic doctrine was not revealed to the Pope or the magisterium or whoever (I am no expert on these details) until hundreds or thousands of years later.
Where did you get that idea? Peter was the first pope. He and the other Apostles and the bishops made up the magisterium. The faith given to the Apostles was passed down to their successors, the bishops. And all of this was done through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, as Christ promised. The Church has guarded the apostolic faith from error since Pentecost, not hundreds or thousand of years later. The doctrines we hold today are the doctrines held by the Apostles.
I think Christ taught us all that was essential with no secret or unrevealed knowledge to be revealed to persons coming after the apostles; nor do I believe the Apostles were taught something essential to faith and just decided not to include it in their scriptural writings.

Fire away! (but remember to be gentle and respectful, as per Peter:D)
“Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.” (John 21:25)

It was not anticipated that people in the future would depend solely upon the written word. Christ started a Church, he didn’t write a book. There was no need to write everything down, even if it could be done. The Apostolic faith is inbedded in the very life of the Church, in its litrugies, its sacraments, its works of charity, etc. Of course, those who have rejected the Church are left with only the written word, and only part of the truth. That is the part of the Church they decided to keep, while discarding most of the rest.

Do you remember the story of Jesus with the two disciples on the road to Emmaus? Christ explained the entire Scripture to them and they were amazed. Not a word of what he told them is written in the Bible. Do you think that what he told them was just unimportant? Or is it possible that what was told to them was preserved in Sacred Tradition?
 
let me see if i can do it that way. yeah, works, thanks!

no it wouldn’t make any sense, if i believed that the Roman Catholic Church was infallible. But i don’t think it is infallible either; come on now, you knew my answer to that, didn’t you:)

i think the holy apostolic faith as taught by Jesus to the Apostles is infallible, and recorded inerrantly in the scriptures (or at least the autographs, but that is another discussion), but there were only 12 apostles. It is my understanding that much catholic doctrine was not revealed to the Pope or the magisterium or whoever (I am no expert on these details) until hundreds or thousands of years later. I think Christ taught us all that was essential with no secret or unrevealed knowledge to be revealed to persons coming after the apostles; nor do I believe the Apostles were taught something essential to faith and just decided not to include it in their scriptural writings.

Fire away! (but remember to be gentle and respectful, as per Peter:D)
Bill,

Father
Son
Holy Spirit

Each revealed…not explicitly taught…revealed in time…

The notion of God revealed in the OT…and it was not until Jesus that we consider the notion of Father…and the NT speaks of Son…and we hear of Holy Spirit…however the notion that the Holy Spirit as God, was not even declared until the 4th century, I believe…

These are things you take for granted…however while you may believe in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as the Trinity…it was not just believed and accepted until long after the death of the Apostles…and while recorded in Scripture…it was not understood until much later…

Today we have with Scripture those that deny the Trinity…Jehovah Witness, Oneness Pentacostal and of course Mormons…so Scripture is not a clear deposit that needs no interpretation for truth…👍
 
PS trying to master this colored text way to respond more clearly:)
Billt9…some more tips…when responding to the whole post…to release the post…delete this either at the end or start of the post…""…this release the formating…and this you want to quote or highlight a particular parapraph within a post…highlight it and click the Quote button on the top of the reply box…is on the left of “#” button.

Hope this helps.
 
let me see if i can do it that way. yeah, works, thanks!

no it wouldn’t make any sense, if i believed that the Roman Catholic Church was infallible. But i don’t think it is infallible either; come on now, you knew my answer to that, didn’t you:)

i think the holy apostolic faith as taught by Jesus to the Apostles is infallible, and recorded inerrantly in the scriptures (or at least the autographs, but that is another discussion), but there were only 12 apostles. It is my understanding that much catholic doctrine was not revealed to the Pope or the magisterium or whoever (I am no expert on these details) until hundreds or thousands of years later. I think Christ taught us all that was essential with no secret or unrevealed knowledge to be revealed to persons coming after the apostles; nor do I believe the Apostles were taught something essential to faith and just decided not to include it in their scriptural writings.

Fire away! (but remember to be gentle and respectful, as per Peter:D)
What good are infallible scriptures absent an infallible interpreter?

If I am hungry, and you offer me bread to eat, but cannot say with infallible certainty that the bread is not poisoned, what good is that to me?

:bible1:
 
I have started this thread so I can understand why people can not understand why mormons believe in more of God’s word than other mainstream Christians. And why others can not accept that there is more of God’s word. We are asked why we believe in these books. I ask how do you know that what you believe in is real or more correct than what I have. History is fine, but victors always write the histroy.
Why do we reject Mormonism?

We reject Mormonism because there is no historical or archeological evidence for anything that Joseph Smith said other than the “word” of Joseph Smith. How convenient. In contrast, the Bible is the written record of eyewitnesses (Moses, Paul, etc.) who lived through the experiences described in its pages. The Book of Mormon is a historical novel…a fanciful work of fiction…while the Bible is the Word of God.

Why do we accept the Bible?

The Catholic method of proving the Bible to be inspired is this: The Bible is initially approached as any other ancient work. It is not, at first, presumed to be inspired. From textual criticism we are able to conclude that we have a text the accuracy of which is more certain than the accuracy of any other ancient work.

Next we take a look at what the Bible, considered merely as a history, tells us, focusing particularly on the New Testament, and more specifically the Gospels. We examine the account contained therein of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.

Using what is in the Gospels themselves and what we find in extra-biblical writings from the early centuries, together with what we know of human nature (and what we can otherwise, from natural reason alone, know of divine nature), we conclude that either Jesus was just what he claimed to be—God—or he was crazy. (The one thing we know he could not have been was merely a good man who was not God, since no merely good man would make the claims he made.)

We are able to eliminate the possibility of his being a madman not just from what he said but from what his followers did after his death. Many critics of the Gospel accounts of the resurrection claim that Christ did not truly rise, that his followers took his body from the tomb and then proclaimed him risen from the dead. According to these critics, the resurrection was nothing more than a hoax. Devising a hoax to glorify a friend and mentor is one thing, but you do not find people dying for a hoax, at least not one from which they derive no benefit. Certainly if Christ had not risen, his disciples would not have died horrible deaths affirming the reality and truth of the resurrection. The result of this line of reasoning is that we must conclude that Jesus indeed rose from the dead. Consequently, his claims concerning himself—including his claim to be God—have credibility. He meant what he said and did what he said he would do.

Further, Christ said he would found a Church. Both the Bible (still taken as *merely a historical *book, not yet as an inspired one) and other ancient works attest to the fact that Christ established a Church with the rudiments of what we see in the Catholic Church today—papacy, hierarchy, priesthood, sacraments, and teaching authority.

We have thus taken the material and purely historically concluded that Jesus founded the Catholic Church. Because of his Resurrection we have reason to take seriously his claims concerning the Church, including its authority to teach in his name.

This Catholic Church tells us the Bible is inspired, and we can take the Church’s word for it precisely because the Church is infallible. Only after having been told by a properly constituted authority—that is, one established by God to assure us of the truth concerning matters of faith—that the Bible is inspired can we reasonably begin to use it as an inspired book.

A Spiral Argument

Note that this is not a circular argument. We are not basing the inspiration of the Bible on the Church’s infallibility and the Church’s infallibility on the word of an inspired Bible. That indeed would be a circular argument! What we have is really a spiral argument. On the first level we argue to the reliability of the Bible insofar as it is history. From that we conclude that an infallible Church was founded. And then we take the word of that infallible Church that the Bible is inspired. This is not a circular argument because the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired) is not simply a restatement of its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable), and its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable) is in no way based on the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired). What we have demonstrated is that without the existence of the Church, we could never know whether the Bible is inspired.

The advantages of the Catholic approach are two: First, the inspiration is really proved, not just “felt.” Second, the main fact behind the proof—the reality of an infallible, teaching Church—leads one naturally to an answer to the problem that troubled the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:30-31): How is one to know which interpretations are correct? The same Church that authenticates the Bible, that attests to its inspiration, is the authority established by Christ to interpret his word.
 
Why do we reject Mormonism?

We reject Mormonism because there is no historical or archeological evidence for anything that Joseph Smith said other than the “word” of Joseph Smith. How convenient. In contrast, the Bible is the written record of eyewitnesses (Moses, Paul, etc.) who lived through the experiences described in its pages. The Book of Mormon is a historical novel…a fanciful work of fiction…while the Bible is the Word of God.

Why do we accept the Bible?

The Catholic method of proving the Bible to be inspired is this: The Bible is initially approached as any other ancient work. It is not, at first, presumed to be inspired. From textual criticism we are able to conclude that we have a text the accuracy of which is more certain than the accuracy of any other ancient work.

Next we take a look at what the Bible, considered merely as a history, tells us, focusing particularly on the New Testament, and more specifically the Gospels. We examine the account contained therein of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.

Using what is in the Gospels themselves and what we find in extra-biblical writings from the early centuries, together with what we know of human nature (and what we can otherwise, from natural reason alone, know of divine nature), we conclude that either Jesus was just what he claimed to be—God—or he was crazy. (The one thing we know he could not have been was merely a good man who was not God, since no merely good man would make the claims he made.)

We are able to eliminate the possibility of his being a madman not just from what he said but from what his followers did after his death. Many critics of the Gospel accounts of the resurrection claim that Christ did not truly rise, that his followers took his body from the tomb and then proclaimed him risen from the dead. According to these critics, the resurrection was nothing more than a hoax. Devising a hoax to glorify a friend and mentor is one thing, but you do not find people dying for a hoax, at least not one from which they derive no benefit. Certainly if Christ had not risen, his disciples would not have died horrible deaths affirming the reality and truth of the resurrection. The result of this line of reasoning is that we must conclude that Jesus indeed rose from the dead. Consequently, his claims concerning himself—including his claim to be God—have credibility. He meant what he said and did what he said he would do.

Further, Christ said he would found a Church. Both the Bible (still taken as *merely a historical *book, not yet as an inspired one) and other ancient works attest to the fact that Christ established a Church with the rudiments of what we see in the Catholic Church today—papacy, hierarchy, priesthood, sacraments, and teaching authority.

We have thus taken the material and purely historically concluded that Jesus founded the Catholic Church. Because of his Resurrection we have reason to take seriously his claims concerning the Church, including its authority to teach in his name.

This Catholic Church tells us the Bible is inspired, and we can take the Church’s word for it precisely because the Church is infallible. Only after having been told by a properly constituted authority—that is, one established by God to assure us of the truth concerning matters of faith—that the Bible is inspired can we reasonably begin to use it as an inspired book.

A Spiral Argument

Note that this is not a circular argument. We are not basing the inspiration of the Bible on the Church’s infallibility and the Church’s infallibility on the word of an inspired Bible. That indeed would be a circular argument! What we have is really a spiral argument. On the first level we argue to the reliability of the Bible insofar as it is history. From that we conclude that an infallible Church was founded. And then we take the word of that infallible Church that the Bible is inspired. This is not a circular argument because the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired) is not simply a restatement of its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable), and its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable) is in no way based on the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired). What we have demonstrated is that without the existence of the Church, we could never know whether the Bible is inspired.

The advantages of the Catholic approach are two: First, the inspiration is really proved, not just “felt.” Second, the main fact behind the proof—the reality of an infallible, teaching Church—leads one naturally to an answer to the problem that troubled the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:30-31): How is one to know which interpretations are correct? The same Church that authenticates the Bible, that attests to its inspiration, is the authority established by Christ to interpret his word.
Randy,

This approach is different than taking the approach “The Bible is True”…the problem with that approach is that it lacks understanding of the history of the Bible that most proponents that take this stance are ignorant of, ignore or when confronted have no ability to continue this dialogue. The Bible is true proponents are operating with lame limbs on crutches destined to stumble at any obstacle.
 
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