How do you know which church is truly the church of Jesus Christ?

[Shlemele]

jaz1976:

I beg to differ. Where Peter is, there is the Church.

Um, do you have lions chomping on ya? Do you have to fear others finding out you follow Christ because it means you might be put to death? You may believe that Peters line has been followed to the present day (I’m not debating this) but the fact is that though the church was here it has changed over two millennia. Theology has changed (going from a persecuted people to believing in just war theory in the fourth century), but the world has changed. The church went from being a grassroots movement to being a superpower in the middle ages. You don’t go through that kind of change and remain exactly the same institution.

 

[jaz1976]

Shlemele:

Um, do you have lions chomping on ya? Do you have to fear others finding out you follow Christ because it means you might be put to death? You may believe that Peters line has been followed to the present day (I’m not debating this) but the fact is that though the church was here it has changed over two millennia. Theology has changed (going from a persecuted people to believing in just war theory in the fourth century), but the world has changed. The church went from being a grassroots movement to being a superpower in the middle ages. You don’t go through that kind of change and remain exactly the same institution.

However, Doctrine has not changed.

 

[Shlemele]

jaz1976:

However, Doctrine has not changed.

Hehe that is a topic for another thread…

 

[E.E.N.S]

Shlemele:

Um, do you have lions chomping on ya? Do you have to fear others finding out you follow Christ because it means you might be put to death? You may believe that Peters line has been followed to the present day (I’m not debating this) but the fact is that though the church was here it has changed over two millennia. Theology has changed (going from a persecuted people to believing in just war theory in the fourth century), but the world has changed. The church went from being a grassroots movement to being a superpower in the middle ages. You don’t go through that kind of change and remain exactly the same institution.

You are partially correct, no purely man-made institution would prevail, however, with the guidence of the Holy Spirit, the Soul of the Church, it isn’t only possible, it is promised.

 

[Shlemele]

E.E.N.S.:

You are partially correct, no purely man-made institution would prevail, however, with the guidence of the Holy Spirit, the Soul of the Church, it isn’t only possible, it is promised.

And I agree… partially. My view on this is that every Christian church has this blessing. “Where two or more are gathered in his name” doesn’t denote denominations. I have different beliefs concerning the taking up of arms and a few other practices but at the end of the day it is Christ Crucified that saves us.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Shlemele:

And I agree… partially. My view on this is that every Christian church has this blessing. “Where two or more are gathered in his name” doesn’t denote denominations. I have different beliefs concerning the taking up of arms and a few other practices but at the end of the day it is Christ Crucified that saves us.

And I agree with you on this…partially.
In regards to the denominations - there should only be one! That is if there are contradictions within the different Christian denominations with regards to Truth, there is a degree of falseness. Christ is the Truth; Christ has One Body; Christ has One, True Church (Fullness of Truth) - sure, they all have some degree of Truth, but they all can’t be Full of Truth is they contradict each other, therefore one cannot rightfully take an impartial stance and claim to love and serve Jesus at the same time, for Christ is the Truth, and we cannot love that which we do not know. We must continually strive to know Jesus and His will. I venture to say that the Fullness of Truth resides with the Church, the Catholic Church, (I base this claim largely due to history (including the early Church Fathers and saints), and evidences in Scripture, but especially due to Christ’s promise in Matt 16.)

Pray for unity, for Christ Himself prayed to the Father for this very thing; that we may be one as He and the Father are one.

Amen.

 

[Shlemele]

The only thing I can really say in response is that as long as there are humans in the mix there will never be a 100% unified church. We may be unified in name but we humans have a tendency to form our own opinions regardless of facts. From what I have seen Catholic churches have differing theologies (I was recently at a baptism where the priest sounded more protestant than Catholic) the difference is that Catholics don’t put another name on their church when one has differing beliefs. We protestants and Anabaptists do. In reality we Anabaptists are probably closer to Catholic than Protestant but that is another thread altogether.

I guess my point is that the “Fullness of Truth” you refer to is going to come in at the very least different flavors, at the most contradictory. I had one priest tell my wife that the Church is really only concerned that the children are raised in a Christian home and another tell us that they must be raised Catholic and it has raised all kinds of hell in my marriage so I know first hand that even though you have an institution that is unified in name different teachings abound.

 

[Ignatius]

John Mazar:

The Catholic Church is not the only True Church. Protestant Churches who are Trinitarian in belief are also True Churches. Only the cults of Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Christian Science and others that are not Trinitarian in belief are False Churches.

Hi John,

Here is something to consider.
Discerning the Church which Christ founded.

There are a few things we know about this true church:

1. It was built by Jesus Christ himself (Matt 16:18) which means that the “true church” must be about 2000 years old.
2. Jesus only built ONE church (Matt 16:18).
3. This church is the God -ordained upholder, protector and defender of the truth (1 Tim 3:15).
4. This church is the fullness of Christ (Eph 1:22-23) which means that it is also the fullness of truth (John 14:6).
5. The unity of this church will be proof to the world that Jesus was sent by God (John 17:21,23). In order for this unity to be seen by the world this church must be a visible church.
6. The unity of this church must be a unity like that which exists between Jesus and the Father (John 17:21-23), therefore there can be no contradictions in doctrine. The Father and the Son do not disagree on doctrine therefore neither can the “true church”.

May the Grace of Jesus Christ, the love of God and the Fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.

 

[Ignatius]

Shlemele:

I am referring to the change from small persecuted groups to about the middle of the fourth century A.D. This is when Christianity became the State religion of Rome.

I know that you’d like to keep propagating this myth because it is the only thing you’ve got to support your contentions, but there is not one shred of evidence for it. I get a good chuckle when people try to have Constantine make the Catholic Church the state religion. If you do a little research you’ll find that he supported the Arians. He and his son even exiled Catholic Bishops and nearly succeeded in wiping out the Catholic Church. No, my friend, Constantine would have made Arianism the stated religion if he had succeeded.

Your brother in Christ.

 

[mark_a]

Hello Shlemele-

Shlemele:

I guess my point is that the “Fullness of Truth” you refer to is going to come in at the very least different flavors, at the most contradictory.

The Catholic Church has many, many different “flavors”. When I get into a Protestant/Catholic right/wrong rut, I find it helpful to do some reading about Eastern Rite Catholics and Orthodoxy.

I had one priest tell my wife that the Church is really only concerned that the children are raised in a Christian home and another tell us that they must be raised Catholic and it has raised all kinds of hell in my marriage so I know first hand that even though you have an institution that is unified in name different teachings abound.

True. And from what I read, the U.S. Church has a lot of trouble with this. Will it change overnight? Will we ever be 100% in unison with every thought and position??

It’s just not human nature.

 

[Mystophilus]

**How do you know which church is truly the church of Jesus Christ? **

It’s the empty one: all of the ‘congregants’ are out following their Master, helping other people instead of congregating inside.

 

[Lazerlike42]

I hope you’re speaking in hyperbole!

Obviously His followers would be out in the world helping people, but they’d still get together at least once a week to actually worship Him.

The Bible says such a thing, though I don’t know if you would take it as authoritative. In fact His apostles lived in this way. Even if they were only living and writing as they understood, it would be hard to imagine they got something so simple so wrong.

 

[Mystophilus]

Lazerlike42:

I hope you’re speaking in hyperbole!

Obviously His followers would be out in the world helping people, but they’d still get together at least once a week to actually worship Him.

The Bible says such a thing, though I don’t know if you would take it as authoritative. In fact His apostles lived in this way. Even if they were only living and writing as they understood, it would be hard to imagine they got something so simple so wrong.

I think that meeting together is a great thing, but I recall nothing from the Bible in which Jesus advocated church services, or church buildings. Who established the once-a-week meeting? In Acts 2:46, the apostles were meeting “every day”. It was not Jesus. In fact, I can only remember a few instances of him even appearing at synagogues or at the Temple. Most of his teaching was done in the course of his ministry to the masses, rather than inside, shut away from them.

Some have claimed that the apostles did not need such meetings when Jesus was there, because being with him was being in church. I see no reason to doubt this. Some then leap to the conclusion that, when Jesus was not there, the apostles needed such a meeting. This is possible, but not proven by the data, which gives me plenty of reason to doubt it.

I like churches, I really do, especially the older, more ornate kind. I just think that too many of us spend too much of our time actually inside the things, particularly when we are all in there together, which might be great for us but helps no one else.

 

[Shlemele]

Ignatius:

I know that you’d like to keep propagating this myth because it is the only thing you’ve got to support your contentions, but there is not one shred of evidence for it. I get a good chuckle when people try to have Constantine make the Catholic Church the state religion.

I never said that Constantine was the one who instituted Christianity as the state religion (though he certainly paved the way for it). That was done by Theodosius by effectively making the practice of paganism illegal.

Just for good measure I’ll provide some of my sources…

Constantine can rightfully claim the title of Great, for he turned the history of the world into a new course and made Christianity, which until then had suffered bloody persecution, the religion of the State. It is true that the deeper reasons for this change are to be found in the religious movement of the time, but these reasons were hardly imperative, as the Christians formed only a small portion of the population, being a fifth part in the West and the half of the population in a large section of the East. Constantine’s decision depended less on general conditions than on a personal act; his personality, therefore, deserves careful consideration.

and concerning Aryanism, if Constantine was so for it why did one of his most famous counsels condemn it? On top of that he exiled those who rejected the Nicene creed… (via wikipedia)

In 321 Arius was denounced by a synod at Alexandria for teaching a heterodox view of the relationship of Jesus to God the Father. Because Arius and his followers had great influence in the schools of Alexandria — counterparts to modern universities or seminaries — their theological views spread, especially in the eastern Mediterranean. By 325 the controversy had become significant enough that Emperor Constantine called an assembly of bishops, the First Council of Nicaea (modern Iznik, Turkey), which condemned Arius’ doctrine and formulated the Nicene Creed, which is still recited in Catholic, Orthodox, and some Protestant services. The Nicene Creed’s central term, used to describe the relationship between the Father and the Son, is homoousios, meaning “of the same substance” or “of one being”. (The Athanasian Creed is less often used but is a more overtly anti-Arian statement on the Trinity.)

Constantine exiled those that refused to accept the Nicean creed - Arius himself, the deacon Euzoios and the Libyan bishops Theonas of Ptolemais and Secundus of Mamarica - and also the bishops that signed the creed but refused to join in Arius’ condemnation, Eusebius of Nicomedia and Theognis of Nicea. The Emperor also ordered all copies of the Thalia, the book in which Arius had expressed his teachings in verses, to be burned. This ended the open theological dispute, though under the surface opposition to the Nicean creed remained.

While his son did in fact support Aryanism I see no data so far that supports your claim.

From BBS;

Pagan culture and religious practice remained important through the fourth century AD, but in AD 392 the emperor Theodosius I forbade pagan worship, and Christianity effectively became the official religion of the Roman state.

and from Catholic.org

Constantine was the most dominating figure of his lifetime, towering over his contemporaries, including Pope Sylvester I. He presided over the Council of Nicaea, gave extensive grants of land and property to the Church, founded the Christian city of Constantinople to serve as his new capital, and undertook a long-sighted program of Christianization for the whole of the Roman Empire.

So as I said in the fourth century Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire… If it’s a myth please provide some proof.

 

[Ignatius]

Shlemele:

I never said that Constantine was the one who instituted Christianity as the state religion.

Just for good measure I’ll provide some of my sources…

Constantine can rightfully claim the title of Great, for he turned the history of the world into a new course and made Christianity, which until then had suffered bloody persecution, the religion of the State

.

Pax Shlemele.
You did not provide the source of your quote.

 

[Shlemele]

Ignatius:

Pax Shlemele.
You did not provide the source of your quote.

That quote was from the Catholic Encyclopedia hosted on www.newadvent.org/cathen/

 

[E.E.N.S]

Mystophilus:

I think that meeting together is a great thing, but I recall nothing from the Bible in which Jesus advocated church services, or church buildings. Who established the once-a-week meeting? In Acts 2:46, the apostles were meeting “every day”. It was not Jesus. In fact, I can only remember a few instances of him even appearing at synagogues or at the Temple. Most of his teaching was done in the course of his ministry to the masses, rather than inside, shut away from them.

Some have claimed that the apostles did not need such meetings when Jesus was there, because being with him was being in church. I see no reason to doubt this. Some then leap to the conclusion that, when Jesus was not there, the apostles needed such a meeting. This is possible, but not proven by the data, which gives me plenty of reason to doubt it.

I like churches, I really do, especially the older, more ornate kind. I just think that too many of us spend too much of our time actually inside the things, particularly when we are all in there together, which might be great for us but helps no one else.

Actually (and I am sure you know this) we have Mass daily.

Don’t forget the parable of the mustard seed.

And about being in a Church; it is good to be in His [Real] pressence in front of the Eucharist.

Don’t discount the prayers of a righteous person (or prayers in general for that matter.)

((I know that you know these things, but I thought they would be a healthy reminder.))

 

[Ignatius]

AquinasXVI:

Dr. Kreeft came up with this one:

How can you squeeze INFALLABLE Bible juice from a FALLABLE Catholic orange?

Answer: Council of Carthage 387 A.D.

 

[Ignatius]

Shlemele:

That quote was from the Catholic Encyclopedia hosted on www.newadvent.org/cathen/

Hmmm! I did a search for your quoted text (i.e. "Constantine can rightfully claim the title of Great, for he turned the history of the world into a new course and made Christianity, which until then had suffered bloody persecution, the religion of the State".) It is not found.

Are you sure that’s the correct url?

Pax Christi.

 

[Shlemele]

Ignatius:

Hmmm! I did a search for your quoted text (i.e. "Constantine can rightfully claim the title of Great, for he turned the history of the world into a new course and made Christianity, which until then had suffered bloody persecution, the religion of the State".) It is not found.

Are you sure that’s the correct url?

Pax Christi.

yep, it’s under constantine the great, in the section of **Historical Appreciation ** ( newadvent.org/cathen/04295c.htm )