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PRmerger
Guest
What does this sentence mean?
- Status
K
krbray
Guest
Cooooooool.
Asheville/Hendersonville area for me, at the moment. I had a period where I was all over the state and as far as the coast, but I am back for good.
OK. I have a question for you. In doing so, please know that I’m making the assumption that if you believe that Augsburg “rightly reflects scripture”, you view it as free from error (i.e. infallible).
Clearly, you already know that we Catholics believe that ours is the only church that, by apostolic succession, traces its authority, including the authority to interpret scripture, all the way back to the apostles who were given the promise of the Holy Spirit to guide them into all understanding. The underlying premise is that we are the only church whose interpretation is protected from error by the Holy Spirit.
What authority do you believe assures you that the Augsburg Confession rightly reflects scripture?
T
Tommy555
Guest
“Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it (Mar 10.15).” It is good to read the Bible as a child would read it. For personal devotion, look for Christ in all Scripture, especially the OT, because He said that it was about Him. For instance, you can see Christ in Noah’s ark and in Noah. God is holy; therefore, He MUST judge all sin.
In Noah’s day, all people were invited into the ark by virtue of Noah’s preaching for 120 years. At the end of those years, only Noah and his family entered the ark. The waters fell upon the wicked and killed them. The ark (Jesus) also went through the same waters (judgment). Noah and his family also went through the judgment, inside the ark (Jesus).
Now, Noah is also a picture of Christ. Scripture says Noah was righteous. We know that that is a declared righteousness because there is only One who is Righteous, Jesus. Now, the Scriptures does not state anything regarding the righteousness of Noah’s family, only Noah. Noah’s family was saved because of Noah’s “righteousness.” This shows us that we are not saved because of our righteousness but by the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
But, back to interpretation: don’t; just read the Scripture. Then, if someone wants to give his “interpretation,” just reply, “But that is not what Scripture says.” We place our trust in Jesus Christ because of what He said, not of our interpretation of what He said.
In Noah’s day, all people were invited into the ark by virtue of Noah’s preaching for 120 years. At the end of those years, only Noah and his family entered the ark. The waters fell upon the wicked and killed them. The ark (Jesus) also went through the same waters (judgment). Noah and his family also went through the judgment, inside the ark (Jesus).
Now, Noah is also a picture of Christ. Scripture says Noah was righteous. We know that that is a declared righteousness because there is only One who is Righteous, Jesus. Now, the Scriptures does not state anything regarding the righteousness of Noah’s family, only Noah. Noah’s family was saved because of Noah’s “righteousness.” This shows us that we are not saved because of our righteousness but by the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
But, back to interpretation: don’t; just read the Scripture. Then, if someone wants to give his “interpretation,” just reply, “But that is not what Scripture says.” We place our trust in Jesus Christ because of what He said, not of our interpretation of what He said.
D
Deacon_JAR
Guest
Cory, may the Peace of our Lord be with you. As I mentioned yesterday, I was going to try to add a few comments to ths topic. Where “sin” does not exist, “righteousness” and “incorruptibility” reign; where death is unknown, “immortality” exits . Under these conditions we were created.Cory, may the Peace of our Lord be with you. My friend, I agree with you 110%. I am going to add some (name removed by moderator)uts to this topic but not tonight, may be tomorrow.
“The Lord God gave man this order: ‘you are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden except the tree of knowledge of good and bad…From that tree you shall not eat…the moment you eat from it you are surely DOOMED TO DIE.” (Gen. 2:16-17)
When our ancestors DISOBEYED God’s order (humanity’s first sinful action) our righteousness was “corrupted” and our flesh came to know “mortality.” “By the sweat of your face shall you get bread to eat, until you return to the ground, from which you were taken; for you are “DIRT” and to dirt YOU SHALL RETURN.” (Gen. 3:19)
SIN overshadowed God’s creation with “corruptibility” and “mortality.” The Christ of God, our Savior and Messiah, our Lord Jesus Christ became flesh to RESTORE us to the nature we had before it became corrupted and mortal; He will set us free from the chains of sin and its consequences. St. Paul writes, “For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being.”, (1Cor. 15:21). Therefore, with great and sincere conviction we believe that resurrection will bring LIFE and RESTORATION OF OUR NATURE.
How this restoration will take place? “But someone may say, ‘How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come back?” (1Cor. 15:35). “This I declare, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God…we will be changed…the dead will be raised incorruptible…For that which is corruptible must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and that which is mortal must clothe itself with immortality… then the word that is written shall come about: ’Death is swallowed up in victory. Where, O death is your victory? Where, O death is your sting? The sting of death is sin…” (1Cor. 50-56).
We cannot be clothed with “incorruptibility”, we cannot be clothed with “immortality” IF ANY TRACES OF SIN, THE MOTHER OF CORRUPTIBILITY AND MORTALITY STILL ABIDES IN US. May the Lord bless you, my dear friend.
C
Contarini
Guest
Protestant says, “You Catholics think you can earn your way to heaven.”What does this sentence mean?
Catholic says, “No, that’s not what I believe–let me explain it to you.”
Protestant, “Well, that’s not what I’ve been taught Catholics believe, and it doesn’t fit these selected quotes I’ve found from Catholic writings, so you must be either confused or lying.”
Haven’t you seen this scenario and others like it many times? Don’t you see this behavior by Protestants as unjust and uncharitable?
How does it differ from the way the OP treated Jon?
Edwin
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PRmerger
Guest
Indeed I have.
I see it more as frustrating and ignorant rather than unjust and uncharitable, but I see your point.
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Tommy555
Guest
I used to believe this way. The only question became: How did I know when the Holy Spirit was helping? Because I came up with some very, very bad theology. The Holy Spirt teaches us through the Church. Studying and making my own decision, I found, was oftentimes without the Holy Spirit. This is how the heretics came about. They strayed from the teachings of the Church into personal interpretation.
I’m a bit west of you. And it’s hot even at 3,400 feet above sea level. :sad_yes:=krbray;6774955]Cooooooool.
A great question. Here is the issue for me.
The problem I see with the Catholic Church’s claim as the one true Church is that the claim can be and is also made by Orthodoxy. And from here, their claim appears to be at least as arguable as Rome’s. They the same claim of apostolic succession, and the same Holy Tradition. And yet, they are not able to be in communion and unity.
So, even someone such as myself, who is moved by and supportive of AS cannot know which, if either, is truly the one true Church. So until such time as that is resolved, I am (generally) content to remain Lutheran. What is more, there are aspects of both Rome and Orthodoxy that I see addressed in the Lutheran Confessions. So, in that sense, I see Augsburg as a genuinely catholic expression of the faith of the Church Catholic. It relies on scripture and references the councils and ECF’s (perhaps it could have done so more).
As for infallibility, other than scripture, the only documents that come close to that claim, ISTM, might be the early councils, which Lutherans share with both Rome and the East.
You, as a Catholic, may not view that as sufficient from your POV, and I respect and honor your faith that The Catholic Church - those in communion with the Bishop of Rome, holds the fullness of faith. From my perspective, however, the one true Church is currently divided in the west, and in schism from the east.
Jon
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shaky
Guest
Yes i Agree personal interpretation is wrong the mind of flesh can not see the truth
But the scriptures are very clear you are also not to follow another persons interpretation. Rules of Men
The holy spirit is the final teacher The scriptures say This . Also You have to be clear of all known Sin and ask God first to help understand scripture and ask the holy spirit to show you the truth.
It also dangerous Just to follow any churches teaching because there are plenty of cults out there. And plenty of protestant denominations with false teachers in there.
You have to follow the holy spirit first and he has kept me out of churches and on my own most of my Life with
The problems i have Came across with different Churches.
I am looking at the roman catholic church and there teachings at The moment and studying there history. In the past i was not interested because of the Inquisition and the abuses in the past. 19 years i have studied the bible the holy spirit has shown me allot
I have yet to find a church that i could be happy and trust there teachings. So i can Follow the teachings of the church.
The catholic teachings seem more in Line with what i have Learnt From the Bible. Also to my Surprise i have come up with Eastern Orthodox catholic church that i did not Know Existed and there seems to be a division between the 2 east and west Churches.
So it seem to have Left me with a slight problem i have allot of studying to do and see which one the Holy spirit eventually leads me to.
Can any body tell me if the 2 churches are condemning each other to hell or if it doesn’t
Matter which One you Join?
L
LittleSoldier
Guest
The Catholic Church also gave us Hitler.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
Sp are you saying that the OT (at least) is self-explanatory and its meaning will be crystal-clear to a child who reads it? I assume the child reads the entire OT, including the begats?
If its meaning is so clear, why can’t people agree on it? How many children know that the Ark that Noah kept safe in was Jesus? To a child it was a big boat and the animals went in, two by two (except for the unicorn who, sadly, missed the boat). To a child it is a story, just like the “story” of Adam and Eve.
What about Lot’s wife “looking back” at the smoldering ruins of Sodom and Gomorrah? To a child, it probably means she physically turned around and looked and was transformed into a pillar of salt. But this can be interpreted in a different way.
It is good to have the faith of a child. Many concepts are so complex that learned adults can’t understand them but a child accepts them on faith. But the meaning of Bible passages, at least most of them, are too difficult for a child to comprehend. A child can know that all God does is good (although he/she may be horrified at the attempt of Abraham to kill his own son to offer him up as a sacrifice - I remember I was!).
As far as the NT goes, there is the story of the Holy Innocents which filled me with absolute terror. If God could allow this, what else would He allow? And I hadn’t even gotten to the sacrifice of Jesus.
It’s not clear-cut. It’s frightening, full of sexual innuendos, blood, murder, hatred. It’s much too complex for a child to understand and without the aid of the Holy Spirit adults can’t understand it, either. And without a central authority, such as the Catholic Church, there is no way that two people who fully believe they are both guided by the Holy Spirit are going to agree on its interpretation. An authority is needed and is provided by the Catholic Church.
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Tommy555
Guest
Specifically, I am referring to the gospel, the promises of God. Regarding the OT, I am referring to looking for Christ and types of Christ. This comes much later. Notwithstanding, there are many clear things in the OT that a child would understand. For instance, God punishes sin. Man is extremely sinful, and God must punish. God insists upon perfection; man is sinful. I understood these as a child. I understood that the only thing that pleased God was obedience and that I could not obey and was in trouble. The Old Testament shows how evil we are, and how good God is. And then in the NT, the Savior appears.
We are sinful at birth; therefore, all sin does not appear that bad to us–because we are accustomed to sin. Due to that, we turn around and judge God because He judges ALL sin. We will ask questions like, “How can God order all men, women, children, and animal be killed in the OT? How can He do that and be good?” He is God; He is holy; He is just. Is it justice for a murderer to go without punishment? The NT tells us we are all murderers at heart. Do we get away with it? No, Jesus Christ was punished for it.
You are right. There are also many things a child cannot understand. This is because Christ is veiled in the OT; therefore, they have to be taught. The Catholic church goes back to Christ, the apostles, and the early church fathers. We do the same thing. The Holy Spirit teaches us through the church, through men. God has consistently done this. He taught through Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, the prophets, etc. I have known people who said that they were not going to learn from man, that they were going to let the Holy Spirit teach them, and they fell into heresy. They became extremely prideful and arrogant. They thought they were above others. You can find when other denominations and churches began. Find out when the Catholic church began. Christ is the Head of the Church, and He promises to keep the Church. Trust Christ; trust that He will keep His church. Christ tells us that He will save us through the Church. He did, and He will. You are not trusting in man; you are trusting Christ and that Christ will teach you through the Church, by men of the Church. For instance, you were baptized by men, but it was the Baptism of Christ. Confess that you are weak and ignorant. In your weakness, He is strong; in you ignorance, He is wise. Just trust Christ and that He is teaching and working through the Church.
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krbray
Guest
At that elevation, you oughta be seeing some relief. When I lived in Boone, at the same elevation, we always had noticeable lower temps all year long (winter time was a real bear). Wonder what it’ll be like at 4 feet above sea level for me when I get to the OBX tomorrow!!!
I’ll have to admit that I am quite a bit behind you on a lot of stuff, including the history of the Church and, although I was aware of a schism with the eastern churches, I hadn’t paid much attention to it prior to our exchange. So, when I say that I don’t see that the Orthodox church’s claim to AS and tradition is equally arguable to that of the RCC, it’s, for now, based on quick cursory research and an admitted bias on my part. So far, the only thing I see is Rome historically maintaining a position of primacy, the Eastern Orthodox church disputing the claim of that position and a bunch of bickering over it for hundreds of years. If nothing else comes from this dialogue, I’ll walk away better prepared for an intelligent conversation with my Eastern Orthodox brothers.
Another question: If you don’t know that either of the two churches claiming to be the “one true Church” are such a church, do you believe that a “one true Church” even exists? Whether yes or no, tell me why.
You got dat right. Here’s a confession for ya: prior to our exchange I had never read the Augsburg Confession (I told ya I was behind!). Although I have no plans to become Lutheran, I must say I was pleasantly surprised by the Catholic “expression of faith” found there. But the break with apostolic succession is huge to me. Indeed, from my POV, there needs to be a final authority whose authority can be traced to the apostles. In the absence of such, it boils down to man’s fallible interpretation of scripture and could possibly contain error.
I thank you for your respectful responses. I hope you find mine the same.
S
shaky
Guest
Hi LittleSoldier
I Agree with you but Which Catholic Church. Eastern Orthodox catholic
Or western Roman Catholic Church. Both with Different Interpretations.
You can’t work it out yourself>So you Have to do what scripture says. I John 2:27
Read all the new testament and pray and allow the holy spirit teach you only NO MAN
Teaches you. Then you should Know who is the true church in line with scriptures
It is very dangerous just to chose One of the Churches and blindly follow what the church
Teach.
J
JW55
Guest
An important point. If there is to be reunion, there must not be finger pointing. There must be equity and a focus on the commonalities of our faiths.
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PRmerger
Guest
Can you be more specific? What “different interpretations” do the EOCs have with the Roman CC?
Indeed! And you are in agreement with the CC on this, shaky!It is very dangerous just to chose One of the Churches and blindly follow what the church
Teach.
There seems to be varying views here at CAF as to how significant the doctrinal differecnes are between Rome and the East. My point is only that the claim is there, and the roots of their bishops are equally found in the apostles.
Yes, I do. Remember that Lutherans have a different view of what the Church is. For us, it is the congregation of believers, where the is word preached and the sacraments administered.
So, you are part of that Church, as am I, and many others. The issue is then, leading us back to the OP, how do we know which of us is expressing the one truth.
I read somewhere recently that, in the west, one should consider Rome the default setting. Maybe so, but to the extent that it differs with the east, it leaves room for doubt, particularly where our disagreements with Rome mirror the East’s.
It was big with the Lutheran reformers, so big in Scandinavia, that the Lutherans there maintained it. For the rest, this comment from the Apology of the Augsburg Confession:
Nothing would please me more than to see Apostolic Succession return to the Lutheran clergy, and to have Rome’s approval of it. That, however, does not mean I doubt the validity of our orders.
I have, indeed. Thank you.
Jon
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phoenixrrt62
Guest
How do*** ANY*** of you know what’s correct?
You are following rules made by man. So…who’s right?
It’s like the chicken and the egg, yeah?
Just sayin’
You are following rules made by man. So…who’s right?
It’s like the chicken and the egg, yeah?
Just sayin’
P
PRmerger
Guest
We have the data, just like science does. Our data are the Scriptures and Sacred Tradition.
K
krbray
Guest
The roots of the bishops are, if you trace back to pre-schism times, found in the apostles, but I’ll submit that they’re not equal between the two churches. Only one of the two can be the authoritative true church. When one church left the other, it’s authority to teach, interpret, or establish true doctrine was lost through self-excommunication.
Doctrinal differences are not only un-biblical, but illogical, if you believe that The Church is the “congregation of believers” from among all denominations. They can’t all be teaching the Truth when they disagree on so many issues. Believers within the church may disagree with each other but THE Church can’t be disagreeing with itself on doctrine and that is exactly what we have in a church comprised of the “congregation of believers”.
If Rome IS the one true church, it won’t matter that the Lutherans’ disagreement mirrors the East’s or anybody else’s. The one true church is the one that teaches The Truth, regardless of how many other churches disagree with it.
:twocents:
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