How Do You Know Your Interpretation Is Correct?

[joe370]

Roy, you said:

God bless his children of every creed, color and country. May religion become a bridge instead of a barrier.

Amen brother. That is the hope of everyone here at CAF, but certainly not at the expense of truth; wouldn’t you agree? How does one even go about finding truth in your opinion? I was just wondering: what would be a good reason in your mind for trusting any one particular church, regarding the correct interpretation of sacred scripture; what would the criteria be for you? How does one go about finding the one church founded by Jesus on Pentecost in Jerusalem circa AD 33 and should that even matter anymore? I mean, is the holy spirit still guiding that one church into all truth or is he guiding all churches* (regardless of church affiliation) *- into some similar truths and some opposing truths? Why would the HS do that? Do you believe that God is able to do what the bible says regarding the preservation of doctrinal truth in Jesus’ established church, until the end of time?

Also, do you believe that God chose a particular people, from before time immemorial, from which the Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace, suffering servant, Davidic king humbly riding on a donkey, would come?

Your brother in Christ, Joe…

 

[david_ruiz]

Just a quick note on your quoted pope saying there is no salvation outside the Catholic church. I guess this dogma , doctrine , practice, or edict has changed a few times over the centuries , yet most say the Church has been teaching the same things for 2 thousand years.I guess not on this important issue.forums.catholic-questions.org/images/smilies/blush.gif

 

[Pitcharan]

Gosh, I don’t have time for this. Is the ‘devil’ tempting me to respond to all these points…But God bless everybody, of all faiths. Let’s try to make religion a bridge that unites and not a barrier that creates hatred, arrogance, and tribalism.

‘These people honour me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ (Matt 15:8-9)

 

[PRmerger]

Just a quick note on your quoted pope saying there is no salvation outside the Catholic church. I guess this dogma , doctrine , practice, or edict has changed a few times over the centuries , yet most say the Church has been teaching the same things for 2 thousand years.I guess not on this important issue.forums.catholic-questions.org/images/smilies/blush.gif

Yes, david, the Church’s proclamation* extra ecclesia nulla salum *
has been the constant teaching of the Church.

I really don’t understand what the big fuss is over this teaching. It’s really just another way to say what *all *Christians say: there is no salvation outside of Christ.

 

[david_ruiz]

Hi, PRmerger,

Like Anna, I too find this curious. These people whom you have spoken to … did they give you a reference for the Bible being the FINAL AUTHORITY? The usual response is “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful…” 2Tim 3:16 - but, this in no way established it as the FINAL AUTHORITY.

If you like the term “false teachings” or “false teachers” better than heresies, than may I suggest those terms. The bottom line is that you have people who once embraced the Truth of Christ through the Chruch Christ founded on Peter (Matthew 16:18) and then embraced new doctrine - not from Christ. Not only are these people following the wrong master - they are causing others to go astray in the process. This is a great scandal - and, we are talking about nothing short of the loss of immortal souls.

Next time you talk to these people, get some references and do some research. I think you find that the Bible (even your abridged version…) your friends say is the FINAL AUTHORITY was established by the Catholic Church in about 400AD. So, don’t you wonder who was ‘minding the store’ from the time ascended into heaven (Acts 1) in about 33AD until 400AD if the Bible (both completed and approved Old and New Testaments) was not even established? The answer is the Catholic Church "…the pillar and bulwark of the truty… " (1Tim 3:15).

God bless

I thought the apostles and prophets were the foundation of the church .They taught both orally and in writing .The writings began with them ( finished by 100 A.D.) I do not recall any of the churches denying their authority until a council convened to ratify them hundreds of years later.I do not see the reason for leaving out anything major in their writings. To say that they taught things orally, and but not in writing, with all the authors , books and time span is a stretch.It also opens the door to almost anything .Hence early Fathers said stick to scriptures .Again ,they had them ALL by 100 A.D.,in one church or another.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

A charitable and relevent post…until that second to the last sentence. Wow, talk about hitting below the belt clothed in charity LOL It’s like you’re saying, “I would never ever make fun of your mom! And trust me, with a fat pig like her, if I wanted to belittle her, which I won’t do, I really could!” LOL

Perhaps you should find unbiased books to read. There were two occasions where reunion was quite close to happening, however it was as much a case as the Latins being accepted into the Orthodox fold as it was the Orthodox being accepted as Catholics. The Orthodox and Catholics disagree on who is in schism, and should reunion happen it will be a moot point, as such those who dwell on it as that book you’re reading, as as you seem keen to do, are only acting as a hindrance to that longtime goal of the two Churches. I for one will not accept union with those who insist on belittling my traditions any more than I imagine you would accept union with Orthodox who belittled Latin tradition - and there is much that could be belittled.

One who belittles those they court as allies has little business talking about the madness of anyone.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

But it’s not just saying there’s no salvation outside of Christ, it’s saying there’s no salvation outside of Catholicism. So Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, Lutherans, all Protestants, etc. feel marginalized by that statement. It’s a statement of ecclesial exclusivity. It’s not about Christ, it’s about the institution.

Yes, david, the Church’s proclamation* extra ecclesia nulla salum *
has been the constant teaching of the Church.

I really don’t understand what the big fuss is over this teaching. It’s really just another way to say what *all *Christians say: there is no salvation outside of Christ.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I think this is it. I’ve challenged you more than enough and only can hope I’ve caused at least 2-3 of you to be less dogmatic. Perhaps not. As you have seen, I have arrived at the point in life where I have trouble with dogmatism. . . . .

Roy5,

There are many people on these forums, who are well educated in the history of Christianity and world religions. There are Church historians, university professors, Priests, Bishops, Ministers, etc., who post here. Even with all the books I read; I struggle to keep up and fail more often than not.

So, I don’t want to sound unkind, but you haven’t written anything that has challenged me in any way–other than the challenge of actually getting a straight answer about your beliefs.

You write about what different people believe; but very little about your own beliefs and how you formed them.

I removed the portions of your last post that did not speak to what you actually believe. There isn’t much left. Are you simply in the process of trying to figure out what you believe? It’s difficult to tell where you’re coming from.

since I believe God, whom I worship with a deep faith, is well beyond the understanding of any one set of doctrines.

. . . .Christianity should be a ‘big tent’ so that millions of people like me, with our faith and our doubts, will feel comfortable in the church. . . . .

. . . . .(2) mainline Protestant. . . .I have become somewhat attracted to (2) because its seems to tolerate folks like me. . . . .

. . . .I have read the Church Fathers - well, many of them - including Clement of Alexandria, Anselm, Tertullian, Origen and Augustine to later ones, especially Thomas Aquinas. Their assumptions too often are based upon incorrect knowledge of the material world to instill confidence in me. . . . .

. . . .I was raised in a devout home and have a particular distaste for the writings of Hitchens, Harris and other contemporary champions of atheism. . . . .

… . . .I certainly see myself as a Christian. . . . .

… . . .I’m inclined to think that my simple style of Christianity may better reflect the Jesus of Nazareth and his precepts than many churches with their narrow creeds, huge cathedrals, ornate vestments, hierarchies, etc. . . .

… . . .I’m something of a preacemonger. Hope that fits in with the teachings of Christ. . . .

Wish you would actually engage in discussion and debate.

Anna

 

[PRmerger]

But it’s not just saying there’s no salvation outside of Christ, it’s saying there’s no salvation outside of Catholicism. So Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, Lutherans, all Protestants, etc. feel marginalized by that statement. It’s a statement of ecclesial exclusivity. It’s not about Christ, it’s about the institution.

I am certain that Muslims and Jews feel alienated by Christianity proclaiming that they are not saved without Christ.

 

[PRmerger]

To say that they taught things orally, and but not in writing, with all the authors , books and time span is a stretch

Who says that they taught things orally “but not in writing”? Certainly not the Catholic Church!

It also opens the door to almost anything .Hence early Fathers said stick to scriptures .Again ,they had them ALL by 100 A.D.,in one church or another.

This is a list (nonexhaustive) of some of the early Christian writings. It wasn’t until the Catholic Church codified them, 300 years later, that we had an infallible determination of what was theopneustos and what was just some Christian’s musings.

30-60 Passion Narrative
40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q
50-60 1 Thessalonians
50-60 Philippians
50-60 Galatians
50-60 1 Corinthians
50-60 2 Corinthians
50-60 Romans
50-60 Philemon
50-80 Colossians
50-90 Signs Gospel
50-95 Book of Hebrews
50-120 Didache
50-140 Gospel of Thomas
50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ
65-80 Gospel of Mark
70-100 Epistle of James
70-120 Egerton Gospel
70-160 Gospel of Peter
70-160 Secret Mark
70-200 Fayyum Fragment
70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
73-200 Mara Bar Serapion
80-100 2 Thessalonians
80-100 Ephesians
80-100 Gospel of Matthew
80-110 1 Peter
80-120 Epistle of Barnabas
80-130 Gospel of Luke
80-130 Acts of the Apostles
80-140 1 Clement
80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians
80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews
80-250 Christian Sibyllines
90-95 Apocalypse of John
90-120 Gospel of John
90-120 1 John
90-120 2 John
90-120 3 John
90-120 Epistle of Jude
93 Flavius Josephus
100-150 1 Timothy
100-150 2 Timothy
100-150 Titus
100-150 Apocalypse of Peter
100-150 Secret Book of James
100-150 Preaching of Peter
100-160 Gospel of the Ebionites
100-160 Gospel of the Nazoreans
100-160 Shepherd of Hermas
100-160 2 Peter
source

 

[benedictus2]

I thought the apostles and prophets were the foundation of the church .They taught both orally and in writing .The writings began with them ( finished by 100 A.D.) I do not recall any of the churches denying their authority

Why would they? There was only one Church then, the Catholic Church. To deny that authority would be to deny their own authority

until a council convened to ratify them hundreds of years later.

What are you talking about here?

I do not see the reason for leaving out anything major in their writings.

And who says we did?

To say that they taught things orally, and but not in writing, with all the authors , books and time span is a stretch.

You are misrepresentating that bit. What we are saying is that not everything taught has been put in writing. The Church is a living organinism and comes to a greater understanding of the truths proclaimed by the Apostles. The Trinity for one. You cannot find this in the Bible

It also opens the door to almost anything .Hence early Fathers said stick to scriptures .

Can you cite where they said that? Even St Paul says follow the traditions that have been handed down both written and ORAL.

Again ,they had them ALL by 100 A.D.,in one church or another.

And in 100 AD there is NO one church or another. There was only one Church, the Catholic Church.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Just a quick note on your quoted pope saying there is no salvation outside the Catholic church. I guess this dogma , doctrine , practice, or edict has changed a few times over the centuries , yet most say the Church has been teaching the same things for 2 thousand years.I guess not on this important issue.forums.catholic-questions.org/images/smilies/blush.gif

Defer to Catholics.

I thought the apostles and prophets were the foundation of the church .They taught both orally and in writing .The writings began with them ( finished by 100 A.D.) I do not recall any of the churches denying their authority until a council convened to ratify them hundreds of years later.I do not see the reason for leaving out anything major in their writings. To say that they taught things orally, and but not in writing, with all the authors , books and time span is a stretch.It also opens the door to almost anything .Hence early Fathers said stick to scriptures .Again ,they had them ALL by 100 A.D.,in one church or another.

david ruiz,

Welcome to CAF! I see you just joined today. These are great forums.

Indeed the Apostles and prophets were the foundation of the Church with the rather critical issue of the “primacy” of Peter.–huge subject.

You are right. The Gospel was transmitted through Oral Tradition, Letters read to gatherings of Christians, and later put into writing. The Trinity is often used as an example of a doctrine that developed more fully over time.

The Tradition of the Gospel was handed down through time. Keep in mind that things did not come to a halt in 100 A.D. Literate Christians continued to write, and these early writings tell us much about what the early Church believed and how they interpreted Scripture. Even when the Biblical Canon was set and the Early Church Fathers had Scripture, it had to be interpreted. That’s where Tradition comes in.

 

[joe370]

Just a quick note on your quoted pope saying there is no salvation outside the Catholic church. I guess this dogma , doctrine , practice, or edict has changed a few times over the centuries , yet most say the Church has been teaching the same things for 2 thousand years.I guess not on this important issue.forums.catholic-questions.org/images/smilies/blush.gif

Well, that is not a doctrine; that’s Jesus’ church leadership attempting to see things in a more ecumenical light. I think it is reassuring. I can give you a few more inconsistencies (that don’t deal with doctrine) - but I can also give you one reason why none of it matters: the CC was founded by Jesus the Christ, in Jerusalem, on Pentecost circa AD 33 and was told that the gates of hell would never defeat Jesus’ established church. Don’t you want to belong to the church founded by God rather than mere man. As a former Lutheran, I did. But if you don’t that’s cool.

Dave, in the myriad protestant churches in the world today, how does one know which interpretation is the correct one, considering the fact the the bible is the final authority for all Christians in the protestant world and quite often they come away from it with different interpretations. Always confused me as a former protestant; perhaps you could shed some light on the issue for me?

 

[joe370]

I thought the apostles and prophets were the foundation of the church .They taught both orally and in writing .The writings began with them ( finished by 100 A.D.) I do not recall any of the churches denying their authority until a council convened to ratify them hundreds of years later.I do not see the reason for leaving out anything major in their writings. To say that they taught things orally, and but not in writing, with all the authors , books and time span is a stretch.It also opens the door to almost anything .Hence early Fathers said stick to scriptures .Again ,they had them ALL by 100 A.D.,in one church or another.

Dave the following books were disputed even in the 3rd century and these non-canonical books were embraced as part of sacred scripture in some places, but eventually rejected by the CC at the end of the 4th century:

Revelation
Hebrews
James
2 Peter
2 & 3 John
Jude

The Shepherd of Hermes
Letter of Barnabus
Teaching of Twelve Apostles
Gospel of the Hebrews
Revelation of Peter
Acts of Peter
Didache

If not for the CC some books in your NT might not have made it there, and some books that didn’t make the cut might have made it there. Why do you trust that the CC got it right about the correct inclusion and exclusion of books in your NT? Is scripture to be the Christians final authority for resolving doctrinal differences, in your opinion?

 

[shaky]

Here’s an example of Truth that make me uncomfortable: it makes me uncomfortable knowing that some of my friends who have divorced and re-married are living in adultery.I’d much rather tell them that I’m happy that they found happiness.

However, I know the Truth of the Gospel, and it’s hard sometimes to live it out.

Hi PRmerger

Doing something Hard do not necessarily Mean it makes you uncomfortable. you can be doing something very soft and be very uncomfortable.

Like working very hard in you business. So you can pay your bills and put food on your family’s plate.
If you don’t work very hard, you will not be able to do this. And will be very uncomfortable.

Why should it make you uncomfortable knowing what your friends are doing.
If it makes you uncomfortable knowing what your friends are doing.
maybe it is because of you.
Concerning yourself over things that you should not be concerned about.

If you was my friend and i was in that position. Then you coming up to me and my wife saying we are committing Adultery. I would say who are you to Judge.

If you uncomfortable about something don’t do it. Follow the Comforter. The spirit of Truth

What makes you so Sure they are committing Adultery.

If any of my christian friends or christian family are committing a serious known Sin.
I would not be concerned and uncomfortable about it. I would gently warn them. I have done that with my sister. I did not find it hard at all to tell her at all. She is involved in a relationship Having Sex.
She and her partner have now set a date to get married. They did this the day after i warned her using scripture.

 

[Pitcharan]

Here’s an example of Truth that make me uncomfortable: it makes me uncomfortable knowing that some of my friends who have divorced and re-married are living in adultery.I’d much rather tell them that I’m happy that they found happiness.

However, I know the Truth of the Gospel, and it’s hard sometimes to live it out.

I feel that Truth is neither bitter nor hard actually. Our Lord’s teaching against divorce and remarriage, was more an expose of Phariseean hypocrisy of subverting truth by making their own laws in God’s name to impose brutal penalties on adulterers on the one hand while, making another set of own laws again in God’s name to legally camouflage and institutionalise adultry by permitting divorce and remarriage. I think we need to apply some simple rules for promoting truth: (i) let HS guide us in all truth, i.e. the need to warn someone about his/her sin should be a prompting of HS. This can be tested by Ignatian method of election and consulting the Parish priest. (ii) If you want to persuade someone not to live in sin, you must also have an alternate good option. For eg., if someone is having an illicit affair, it is easy to warn and persuade to stop it. But if a divorcee has remarried, can you practically offer any alternate life. Such matters are best left to priests.

Some food for thought: Nathan was instructed by God to make David realise his sin of grabbing another’s wife after murdering him. But Nathan did not deem it fit to ask David to dissolve the illicit marriage. However, this is not so in Herod’s case. John the Baptist warned Herod at the cost of his own life. Herod’s sin was reversible but David’s sin was irreversible and could only be repented for

 

[shaky]

How do you baptize? In a river or with sprinkling?

What about celebrate the Lord’s supper? Do you use grape juice? Wheat and crackers? One cup or many?

And do you celebrate the Lord’s Day on Saturday or Sunday?

Just wondering…'cause even with folks reading the very same Scriptures there’s lots of different interpretations coming up about what it means.

Hi PRmerger.

IF Somebody wants to be baptised. You can do it at the swimming baths or in the bath.
I was baptised in a big drum full of water in somebody’s garage. In the winter the water was very cold. By Immersion.

The Lord super has to be proper wine and bread for me. You only need One cup.

I celebrate the Lords day sunday.

 

[benedictus2]

Okay this is slightly off topic but I think it deserves a little comment.

  What PRMerger is saying is true. It is difficult to tell someone about their sins and yet we are supposed to do so because it is one of spiritual works of mercy – Admonish the Sinner

  If we fail in this duty then we fall into the sin of omission.

Why should it make you uncomfortable knowing what your friends are doing If it makes you uncomfortable knowing what your friends are doing.
maybe it is because of you.

Of course she would be uncomfortable. Would you not be if you know that a friend of yours is living in sin and you know it?

Concerning yourself over things that you should not be concerned about.

Actually it is something that we should be concerned about. If we have friends that are supposed to be Christians and they are not living according to Christian precepts, is it not our duty to tell them so. It would be a different thing if they are atheists or some other religion for whom Christian teaching does not matter.

  If they refuse to listen then at least we would have done the right thing.  Sure they will be upset but such an occasion might actually start them thinking about the way they live their lives.

  Many people are afraid to speak the truth because they are more concerned about being labelled judgmental or nosy.  They care too much about human respect.

  Let me put it this way, would you not do so if you know a friend is a paedophile?

If you was my friend and i was in that position. Then you coming up to me and my wife saying we are committing Adultery. I would say who are you to Judge.

It would not be a case of PRMerger judging you but rather the Lord.

This is something that is very clear in the Bible. The one who divorces and re-marries is committing adultery. And straight out of Jesus’s mouth as well.

If you uncomfortable about something don’t do it. Follow the Comforter.The spirit of Truth

Not everything that is comfortable to do is from the comforter.
Those whose lives are lived contrary to the precepts of the Lord and have so internalized the way of the world will feel very comfortable sinning. You will find many people who have no qualms about cheating, lying, fornicating, etc, etc. They feel very comfortable doing this. One could hardly call this a dictate of the Comforter.

  However, if the Comforter were to speak, He will convict them of their sins so they will feel very uncomfortable indeed. But this convicting will hopefully lead to repentance which will then lead to real comfort.

  If the prophets and apostles and martyrs did what they felt comfortable, there would not be Christianity to speak of.

What makes you so Sure they are committing Adultery.

PRMerger said they are divorced and re-married. Jesus was very clear about that.

If any of my christian friends or christian family are committing a serious known Sin. I would not be concerned and uncomfortable about it.

I think the discomfort arises from having to admonish them. Telling someone they are doing wrong is not a pleasant thing. We would like to be able to tell them they are doing well, but that would be a lie.

I would gently warn them. I have done that with my sister. I did not find it hard at all to tell her at all. She is involved in a relationship Having Sex.
She and her partner have now set a date to get married. They did this the day after i warned her using scripture.

But does this not fall under what you call “concerning yourself about what you should not be concerned about?”.
Your sister is committing fornication. The people PRMerger was talking about is committing something worse – adultery.

 

[Tommy555]

Hi, tqualey:

I am still reading on Marian doctrine, but got distracted. This is from the Catholic Catechism:

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Toward unity

820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279

821 Certain things are required in order to respond adequately to this call:

• a permanent renewal of the Church in greater fidelity to her vocation; such renewal is the driving-force of the movement toward unity;280
• conversion of heart as the faithful “try to live holier lives according to the Gospel”;281 for it is the unfaithfulness of the members to Christ’s gift which causes divisions;
• prayer in common, because “change of heart and holiness of life, along with public and private prayer for the unity of Christians, should be regarded as the soul of the whole ecumenical movement, and merits the name 'spiritual ecumenism;”'282
• fraternal knowledge of each other;283
• ecumenical formation of the faithful and especially of priests;284
• dialogue among theologians and meetings among Christians of the different churches and communities;285
• collaboration among Christians in various areas of service to mankind.286 “Human service” is the idiomatic phrase.

822 Concern for achieving unity "involves the whole Church, faithful and clergy alike."287 But we must realize “that this holy objective - the reconciliation of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ - transcends human powers and gifts.” That is why we place all our hope “in the prayer of Christ for the Church, in the love of the Father for us, and in the power of the Holy Spirit.”

It troubled me when you said “heard of the Catholic Church.” You see, we have been to two Catholic Churches in the last four weeks. Feelings make me wary because they are so very deceptive, but God gave us feelings. I felt as though I was in a fast food restaurant. I left both feeling unfulfilled, empty. In our church, we kneel at the communion rail; the pastor gives us the host, saying, "This is the body of Christ given for you (name); then, when we are given the chalice, we are told, "This is the blood of Christ, shed for you**. There is reverence that I did not see at the Catholic Church. There were too many people helping, that it was distracting. I am sure this is not true in all Catholic churches. Both my wife and I agreed: Our church was more Catholic than the Catholic churches.**

 

[Cinette]

I am certain that Muslims and Jews feel alienated by Christianity proclaiming that they are not saved without Christ.

*Not in the least! They think Christians and Jews are condemned. Read the Qu’ran and you will see.

Personally I think no one has the right to say that another is not saved. That is the role of God.

Cinette*