How do you know

[discipleofJesus]

Mickey:

I am assuming you are very familiar with the Qur’an before making such a judgement?

Yes I have read it all. I am not saying everything he taught was bad. But at least some of his teachings were bad.

 

[majick275]

Hadith:

So you say you personally know only because you have prayed and have a feeling this to be true and because you read it in your scripture?

I do not claim to speak for anyone other than myself and I yes I believe in God. It is not jsut a “feeling”. It is a combination of many things; reason, analysis, sacred scripture, sacred tradition, history, miracles and yes a personal spiritual witness. It is the overwhelming combination of many proofs form many sources that contributes to my own personal testimony.

Hadith:

Nothing more convincing available to you?

See above. Many things are convincing to me. The martyrs and saints examples and experiences. The many miracles. The results of Christian culture, Historical evidence and much more.

Hadith:

That argument sounds like the mormon one to pray and have a happy feeling and for them to say their book is equal to New Testament.

How ironic that I would have this accusation pointed at me. No, it’s much more than a “happy feeling”. Prayer is an important element in knowing God but it is a part of a much larger package. I would coopt this about Islam. An “unlearned” man claims an angel appeared to him and revealed a book of scripture to him. He then claims he is a prophet whom God has called to reveal the “truth” to. He goes on to establish a theocratic society with a history of violence, deception and hypocrisy. He feeds his lust with “divinely approved” polygamy. After his death there is a power struggle amongst his successors resulting in different “branches” each claiming the others false. Is this Josehh Smith Jr. or Mohamed? (or both)

Hadith:

Too much faith needed in your answer. This sounds like complaint against Islam needing faith to believe Muhammad was the Prophet.

Yes it does sound kind of like that. I freely admit that faith is integral to understanding God.

Hadith:

You say fulfillment of scriptures. But if one does exactly what is written because one knows what is written is this not simply parlor trick?

Pretty impressive parlor trick then. Please… There are so many things that only Jesus could do.

Hadith:

Please, give more hardened proofs?
Peace

Proof of what? That God exists? That Jesus is God? Try reading the Bible, studying history and the writings of the Early Curch Fathers. Pray and look for Gods many miracles that are in our lives today. Think of the world and how it would be if Christs teachings were followed by all. There simply isn’t enough room here for all. I ask you to look at the wealth of information readily available at the Catholic Answers Home Page.

Salaam and Khuda Hafez

 

[banjo]

Here are some additional things to consider.

Christ was the only person ever pre-announced.

“Socrates had no one to foretell his birth. Buddha had no one to pre-announce him and his message or tell the day when he would sit under the tree. Confucius did not have the name of his mother and his birthplace recorded, nor were they given to men centuries before he arrived so that when he did come, men would know he was a messenger from God. But, with Christ it was different. Because of the Old Testament prophecies, His coming was not unexpected. There were no predictions about Buddha, Confucius, Loa-tze, Mohammed, or anyone else; but there were predictions about Christ. Others just came and said, “Here I am, believe me.” They were, therefore, only men among men and not the Divine in the human. Christ alone stepped out of that line saying, “Search the writings of the Jewish people and the related history of the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, and Romans.”

“It is true that the prophecies of the Old Testament can be best understood in light of their fulfillment. The language of prophecy does not have the exactness of mathematics. Yet if one searches out the various Messianic currents in the Old Testament, and compares the resulting picture with the life and work of Christ, can one doubt that the ancient predictions point to Jesus and the kingdom which he established? God’s promise to the patriarchs that through them all the nations of the earth would be blessed; the prediction that the tribe of Juda would be supreme among the other Hebrew tribes until the coming of Him Whom al nations would obey; the strange yet undeniable fact that in the Bible of the Alexandrian Jews, the Septuagint, one finds clearly predicted the virgin birth of the Messiah; the prophecy of Isaiah 53 about the patient sufferer, the Servant of the Lord, who will lay down his life as the guilt-offering for his people’s offenses; the perspectives of the glorious, everlasting kingdom of the House of David—in whom but Christ have these prophecies found their fulfillment? From the historical point of view alone, here is uniqueness which sets Christ apart from all other founders of world religions. And once the fulfillment of these prophecies did historically take place in the person of Christ, not only did all prophecies cease in Israel, but there was discontinuance of sacrifices when the true Paschal Lamb was sacrificed.”

Life of Christ; Fulton J. Sheen; Image Books; New York, 1990

There are also cited in this book the various pagan testimonies; from the Romans, the Chinese and the Greeks.

 

[shockerfan]

Hadith:

I see that many discussions have broken down into angry discussion. Let me use new tactic.

How do you know that Jesus is the Son of God? Because he said so is about as valid as J. Smith’s saying he was told to become Mormon.

So I ask for you to explain to me how I can know this Jesus was the Son of God.

Here is how I arrive at the conclusion that Jesus is the Son of God:

1. Jesus fulfilled the numerous prophesies of the Old Testament. (He was written about BEFORE His birth)
2. He claimed to be God (OK, needs proof, so read the next points)
3. The EYEWITNESS account of the ressurected Jesus Christ, prove the work of God. (Coming back to life after being crucified, and stabbed in the side with a sword leads me to believe this was no ordinary person)
4. The EYEWITNESS accounts of the miracles He worked (basically Not only “talked the talk”, but He “walked the walk”)
5. Sacred Tradition (those things about Christ not written in the Bible, but held as truths by his Apostles, desciples, and then the Church leaders to which these truths were passed down to) leads us to understand that those around Him also thought He was God.

My question back to you, is how do you know Muhammed was the prophet of God? What proof do you have?

 

[exoflare]

patg:

That’s pretty subjective… It is also not unique among teachers nor is it unique to Chrisianity. I’m sure the same can be said about the founder of every religion so it hardly qulifies as proof of godliness.

I agree. Hadith is gonna have to wait a while if he wants a full-blown analysis of the reasoning behind all this.

 

[discipleofJesus]

‘To these assertions the Christians reply. Their answers to the Muslims about their prophet and his Book leave the Muslims confounded. “Who witnessed God’s giving of the Book to your prophet?” What prophet foretold that such a prophet would come?" They are at a loss for a response.** “Why did God not provide proofs, as in the case of Moses and Jesus, so that men could be sure about your prophet?” “God does as He wills,”** they say. **“How was this Book given to your prophet?” “It came down on him in his sleep,” ** they reply. **“So the sneering jest has been fulfilled … for receiving it in sleep he would not be aware of what happened.” ** (The jest is not reported). Commentators have suggested. **“Sleeping, he dreams!” ** or **“Tell me your dreams!” “Your prophet told you not to do anything without witnesses” (2:282), ** say the Christians. **“Why did you not demand of him witnesses about this giving of a Book, and prophecies in support of it?” ** Ashamed, they have nothing to say. “No transaction whatever is legal for you without witnesses, yet you have accepted without a witness a faith and a Book. A Book received in sleep! There is no verification of any sort.”’
Taken from ‘Of The Tractate of John of Damascus on Islam’ (bold emphasis mine)
answering-islam.org/Books/MW/john_d.htm

 

[discipleofJesus]

‘22 Immediately Jesus made His disciples get into the boat and go before Him to the other side, while He sent the multitudes away. 23 And when He had sent the multitudes away, He went up on the mountain by Himself to pray. Now when evening came, He was alone there. 24 But the boat was now in the middle of the sea, tossed by the waves, for the wind was contrary.
25 Now in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went to them, walking on the sea. 26 And when the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, “It is a ghost!” And they cried out for fear.
27 But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Be of good cheer! It is I; do not be afraid.”
28 And Peter answered Him and said, “Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water.”
29 So He said, “Come.” And when Peter had come down out of the boat, he walked on the water to go to Jesus. 30 But when he saw that the wind was boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink he cried out, saying, “Lord, save me!”
31 And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?” 32 And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased.
33 Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.”’
(Matthew 14:22-33)

‘13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”
14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”’
(Matthew 16:13-19)

 

[FCEGM]

The late and estimable theologian Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P., in his Our Savior and His Love for Us, presents a nice summation of the Lord’s claims to divinity:

1. Jesus accepted adoration (Matt. 8:2; 28:9; Mark 5:6), of which Peter, Paul, and Barnabas - and even the angels in the Apocalypse - declared themselves unworthy.

1. He is superior to all creatures: greater than Jonas, than Solomon, than David, than Moses, than Elias, than John the Baptist; and He is superior to the angels, who are “His angels” (Matt. 24:31).

1. He demands with regard to Himself, faith, obedience, and love, even to the abnegation of any contrary affection and to the sacrifice of one’s life.

1. He spoke as the supreme Lawgiver, in the Sermon on the Mount.

1. He performed miracles in His own name.

1. He claimed the power to remit sins and has conferred this power on others.

1. He claimed the power to judge the living and the dead of all human generations.

1. He promised to send the Holy ghost, and His promise was accomplished on Pentecost.

Jesus can claim these rights and powers only if He is not merely God’s envoy, the Messiah, but God Himself. He affirmed His Godhead only in a veiled manner in order to prepare souls little by little to receive a more explicit affirmation, which was to become increasingly clear and powerful up to the moment of His condemnation to death.

 

[patg]

discipleofJesus:

If you really are interested in this topic and want answers I suggest you read

The Case for Christ: A Journalist’s Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus
by Lee Strobel

I have - it is quite worthless. I agree it is well-written and appears on the surface to be convincing. The problem with it is that while Strobel frequently reminds you that he used to be a hard-nosed, skeptical journalist, Strobel did not interview any critics of Christian apologetics, even though he attacks many such individuals in his book.

Additionally, most of the book is written with the notion that the gospels are historically accurate, so when questions are posed the “professionals” more often than not answer by quoting the Bible.

I say read with a grain of salt - this is beautiful trap for the naive and ignorant, because it seems thorough, but it was a Christian interviewing Christians, so of course there can only be one outcome.

 

[patg]

shockerfan:

Here is how I arrive at the conclusion that Jesus is the Son of God…

I am amazed that so many passionately defend Jesus as the “Son of God” when no one has ever been able to explain what that means!

Are we polytheists? Is there only one God? Can anyone really explain this - even the concept of the “trinity” just assigns a word to it with no explanation. Theologians have been studying and writing scholarly works about it for thousands of years but it is still totally a matter of faith. Why argue over whether Jesus is such a being when we don’t even know what that being is??

 

[BillyT92679]

patg:

I am amazed that so many passionately defend Jesus as the “Son of God” when no one has ever been able to explain what that means!

Are we polytheists? Is there only one God? Can anyone really explain this - even the concept of the “trinity” just assigns a word to it with no explanation. Theologians have been studying and writing scholarly works about it for thousands of years but it is still totally a matter of faith. Why argue over whether Jesus is such a being when we don’t even know what that being is??

Son of God is euphemistic for God the Son.
We’re not polytheists, we only believe in One God… but God in His Perfection exists as Three Divine Beings… polytheism implies deities who can exists completely independently of one another, with separate essences, wills, intellects. The Triune Godhead is ONE in all these forms. Many gods contradict and oppose each other, but the Triune Godhead is completely harmonius, of one “mind.” Ice, Water, and Steam are all distinct, but they are H2O. The essence does not change although they are distinct from each other.

 

[discipleofJesus]

patg:

I have - it is quite worthless. I agree it is well-written and appears on the surface to be convincing. The problem with it is that while Strobel frequently reminds you that he used to be a hard-nosed, skeptical journalist, Strobel did not interview any critics of Christian apologetics, even though he attacks many such individuals in his book.

Actually no it is not worthless at all, since the book refutes most/all of what you wrote in post #9 and much more!
I think it’s your comments that are quite worthless.

patg:

Additionally, most of the book is written with the notion that the gospels are historically accurate, so when questions are posed the “professionals” more often than not answer by quoting the Bible.

Ummm maybe that’s because in ‘Part 1’ of the book he interviewed scholars who gave evidence that the Gospels are historically accurate/reliable!

patg:

I say read with a grain of salt - this is beautiful trap for the naive and ignorant, because it seems thorough, but it was a Christian interviewing Christians, so of course there can only be one outcome.

Strobel’s intention seems to have been to ask Christian scholars difficult questions to see if they had good answers and evidence for Christianity being true.
It is not a trap for the naive and ignorant at all.

 

[UBERROGO]

Hadith:

I see that many discussions have broken down into angry discussion. Let me use new tactic.

How do you know that Jesus is the Son of God? Because he said so is about as valid as J. Smith’s saying he was told to become Mormon.

So I ask for you to explain to me how I can know this Jesus was the Son of God.

Why does Islam believe Jesus to be a prophet?

 

[discipleofJesus]

discipleofJesus:

patg:

I have - it is quite worthless. I agree it is well-written and appears on the surface to be convincing. The problem with it is that while Strobel frequently reminds you that he used to be a hard-nosed, skeptical journalist, Strobel did not interview any critics of Christian apologetics, even though he attacks many such individuals in his book.

Actually no it is not worthless at all, since the book refutes most/all of what you wrote in post #9 and much more!
I think it’s your comments that are quite worthless.

patg:

Strobel did not interview any critics of Christian apologetics, even though he attacks many such individuals in his book

The title of the book is “The Case *For * Christ” not “The Case Against Christ”

discipleofJesus:

patg:

I say read with a grain of salt - this is beautiful trap for the naive and ignorant, because it seems thorough, but it was a Christian interviewing Christians, so of course there can only be one outcome.

Strobel’s intention seems to have been to ask Christian scholars difficult questions to see if they had good answers and evidence for Christianity being true.
It is not a trap for the naive and ignorant at all.

patg:

but it was a Christian interviewing Christians, so of course there can only be one outcome

The title of the book is “The Case *For * Christ” not “The Case Against Christ”

 

[discipleofJesus]

patg:

I am amazed that so many passionately defend Jesus as the “Son of God” when no one has ever been able to explain what that means!

I’m amazed that you would come here and passionately attack our defense. How would you know if no one has ever been able to explain what it means or not? Have you talked to everyone who has ever existed? Have you read every book that has ever existed?

patg:

Are **we ** polytheists? Is there only one God?

Who is we? I know that Christians (including Catholics) are not polytheists. I don’t know what you believe so I don’t know if you are a polytheist.

There is only one God.

patg:

Why argue over whether Jesus is such a being when** we** don’t even know what that being is??

Who said we don’t know? And how does not knowing what “the Son of God” means, mean that we can’t argue whether He was the Son of God or not?

Also, you are going off topic, the OP asked “How do you know that Jesus is the Son of God” and we answered him. He didn’t ask “What does “the Son of God” mean?”

If you want to ask questions such as “what does “the Son of God” mean?”, I suggest you start another thread, maybe in the ‘Apologetics’ Forum forums.catholic-questions.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 if not on this Forum

 

[RobinHood]

I’ve noticed that no one has mentioned the many Messianic Prophecies fulfilled that were attested to by secular sources.

The term “Messianic prophecy” refers to a compilation of over one hundred predictions (conservative estimate) in the Old Testament regarding the Messiah. They have undeniable accuracy even though these prophecies were recorded by numerous writers into various books over 1000 years. From the Dead Sea Scrolls, we are assured that the Old Testament is left unchanged since at least from the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD (protected by jewish sect of Essenes who were opposed to Christianity). These scrolls were found sealed inside of jars in a cave in 1947 and excavated until 1956. When we compare these scrolls with the Hebrew Old Testament we have today, we find that they are exactly the same, word for word except for very minor differences.

Therefore whatever prophecy that was outside of the writers direct control and is attested by secular, or Jewish history, can only be concluded as being an authentic messianic prophecy fulfilled. First, let us find out what we can tell from secular and Jewish history as uncontested facts about Jesus life, ministry and death.

JOSEPHUS (37-101 AD)

Josephus was born in Jerusalem only four years after Jesus’ crucifixion. He was an eyewitness to much of what he recorded in the first century AD. Josephus was an Orthodox Jew who was commissioned by the Romans to write a history of the Jewish people and Rome up until that point. He mentions Jesus and His brother James:

Antiquities, Book 20, ch. 9, par 1

“Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sandhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others…”

As well and John the Baptist and Herod: Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 5, par. 2

“Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod’s army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was call the Baptist: for Herod slew him who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism…”

TACITUS: (55-117 AD)

Cornelius Tacitus is regarded as the greatest historian of ancient Rome. Writing on the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Chrisitans in Rome as well as the roots of the christian movement being in Judea:

“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius …[the christian movement] thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things …”

PONTIUS PILATE(1 BC-circa AD 37)

Pilate was the fifth Roman procurator of Judea (AD 26-36), under Emperor Tiberius, who sentenced Jesus to death by crucifixion. The quotes below refer to the Acts of Pontius Pilate, a document now missing. Its existence is strongly supported by Epiphanius (Heresies 50.1), Justin Martyr (First Apology) and Tertullian (Apology).

“At His coming the lame will leap as a deer, and the stammering tongue will clearly speak: the blind will see, and the lepers will be healed; and the dead will rise, and walk. And that He did those things, you can learn from the Acts of Pontius Pilate.” –First Apology 48

“They pierced my hand and my feet, was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were driven into His hands and feet. And…they cast lots for His clothes, and after they crucified Him distributed it among them. And that these things did happen, you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate.” –First Apology 35

(more ->)

 

[RobinHood]

BAYLONIAN TALMUD(Completed in the 6th Century AD)

The Babylonian Talmud is a Rabbinic commentary on the Jewish scriptures(Old Testament). They are a look into what a hostile source was saying about Jesus. They couldn’t deny his miracles so they claim that it was sorcery rather than admit to what was a known fact. They also admit that Yeshu (Hebrew for Jesus) was hanged (crucified).

“On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged…He is going forth to stoned because he has practiced sorcery [admission of His miracles] and enticed Isreal to apostasy.”

(The Babylonian Talmud, vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a.)

**"…*By this means he was able to work miracles and to persuade the people that he was the son of God foretold by Isaiah. With the aid of Judas, the Sages of the Synagogue, succeeding in capturing Jeschu(Jesus), who was then lead before the Great and Little Sanhedrim, by whom he was condemned to be stoned to death and finally hanged." Such is the story of Christ according to the Jewish Kabbalists …"

*(Baring-Gould, quoting Talmud, treatise Sabbath, folio 104, (S. Baring-Gould, The Counter Gospels, 1874))

From all of these, here are the facts found from secular history, as well as from hostile sources(the Jews).

Fact 1: John the Baptist was real and he foreshadowed the coming of Christ through baptism.

Fact 2: Jesus was killed, but it did not stop the movement from growing out of Judea, where it first took root.

Fact 3: Jesus performed instantaneous miracles.

Fact 4: Jesus’ hands and feet were pierced.

Fact 5: They cast lots for His clothes

Fact 6: Jesus was crucified.

Fact 7: Rejected by Jews

Fact 8: Betrayed by a friend

Would it surprise you that all these facts supported by secular history are also messianic prophecies fulfilled from the Old Testament that were written up to 1000 years before Christ? The odds of fulfilling all of these 8 prophecies (which cannot be controlled by any other hopeful messiah) were calculated to be one chance in one hundred million billion. That number is millions of times greater than the total number of people who’ve ever walked the planet. There is no way a different man in human history can fit this exact description. And only with 8 prophecies. There are a little over 100 prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.

Now, I challenge you to find another man who’s arrival was proclaimed by another and started a movement in Judea, performed miracles, who’s hands and feet were pierced, where others were casting lots for his clothing while being crucified. All because He was rejected by Jews and betrayed by a friend.

God Bless

 

[patg]

discipleofJesus:

The title of the book is “The Case *For *Christ” not “The Case Against Christ”

Anyone can create a perfect case for something if they totally ignore the evidence, experts, and scholars that contradict them - Strobel wants you to believe there aren’t any. Every lawyer on earth would love to have their cases decided based only on favorable claims!

Something can only be a “case” if there are two sides - how strong can one’s case be if one is unable or unwilling to refute (or even discuss) alternative ideas?

Strobel’s writing can be a piece of one’s education but it is a very narrow minded piece which needs a lot of balancing. It probably makes you feel good if you already believe everything he writes but it is minimally useful for those seeking the truth.

 

[patg]

discipleofJesus:

I’m amazed that you would come here and passionately attack our defense.

I thought this was a discussion forum? And I wasn’t attacking (and hardly passionate), only asking how you could decide the nature of something when you couldn’t explain what the nature meant.

How would you know if no one has ever been able to explain what it means or not? Have you talked to everyone who has ever existed? Have you read every book that has ever existed?

Ok, what does it mean?

Who is we? I know that Christians (including Catholics) are not polytheists. I don’t know what you believe so I don’t know if you are a polytheist.

We claim we are not polytheists but we still can’t really explain this trinity thing.

There is only one God.

I agree that’s what humans have written that God and the church say but that is a statement of faith, not a statement of fact.

Who said we don’t know?

I am willing to listen as to how we know.

And how does not knowing what “the Son of God” means, mean that we can’t argue whether He was the Son of God or not?

I fail to see the logic in that reasoning. So if you didn’t know (or couldn’t explain) what a normalized database was, you would still try to explain how your address book was one?

Also, you are going off topic, the OP asked “How do you know that Jesus is the Son of God” and we answered him.

Only if you assume you know what a “Son of God” is. If you don’t, this isn’t much of an answer.

 

[Paris_Blues]

Hadith:

I see that many discussions have broken down into angry discussion. Let me use new tactic.

How do you know that Jesus is the Son of God? Because he said so is about as valid as J. Smith’s saying he was told to become Mormon.

So I ask for you to explain to me how I can know this Jesus was the Son of God.

It’s common sense! Also, you have to have FAITH and faith is a gift from God in order for you to see that Christ is TRULY the Son of God!