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Theodred
Guest
Raynd, for someone who came here just to ask legitimate questions to increase your own understanding, you sure did get hot under the collar. What’s your problem?
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Grolsch
Guest
Ooh, ad hominem.
It was already pointed out there is nothing to reconcile. There is some bad but also alot of good. The Catholic Church single handedly took a varied group of nomadic barbarians with a strong warrior ethos and transformed them into the most powerful culture the world had ever seen.
Who said it was a right? Washington? Jefferson? Why should I care what they say? What authority do they have to make such a pronouncement?
I wasn’t assuming anything. Im not American either, I’m Canadian. I will assume you choose to live in a free and democratic society but again I ask how do you reconcile that with the fact that free and democratic societies have been responsible for alot of suffering in the world?
I wasn’t aware the Pope had any armies.
That the Church acknowledge the right of rulers to maintain the integrety of their countries should come as no surprise. Especially given the time period.
Hugenots were defending themselves by killing people in Germany? I was talking about the 30 years war, where France, Austria and Sweden all looked to make gains.
You sir should read some modern history books and not 200 year old “enlightenment” propaganda. Get up to date.
Well thank you very much for that but it is not I who is close minded. It is apparent that you have bought into the anti religious philosophy hook line and sinker.
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Fiat
Guest
Dear Gottle of Geer:
You stated:
Fiat
You stated:
I disagree with you. Talking about crimes of the states or of other churches is absolutely necessary to a discussion about the alleged crimes of the Catholic Church. The implication of Raynd’s original post is that religion, and the Catholic Church in particular, is responsible for evil. Yet, those institutions that disavow religion are not immune from creating evil themselves either. This suggests that evil is not so much a properly identifiable aspect of an institution or of a political organization, rather it is a part of human nature. At least the Catholic Church, in Her humility, recognizes this. Fortunately, the Catholic Church provides resources for effectively addressing individual evil. Other institutions do not. So, if someone attacks my Catholic faith by implying that I’m a hypocrite because I belong to an institution that may or may not have been responsible for the deaths of millions, I can assure you I will defend myself against that charge by indicating reasons for my membership within the Church in spite of Her faults.
Fiat
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Scout
Guest
I reconcile this because, regardless of the atrocities of some people throughout the history of the Church, the truth is still taught here. The truth outweighs the evil actions of some men. I’m not trying to belittle or down-play the wrong that many have done in the name of Christ, but that doesn’t change the fact that Christ died for us and established His Church here on earth.
We all make choices. I am a mother. I choose to be a mother, and I try to be a good one. I’m not going to stop being a mom simply because moms like that woman down in Texas killed her children. This was indeed a horrible, horriblle evil. However, that doesn’t change the fact that being a mother is a wonderful vocation.
I think that in all things we have to remember that we are trying to follow Christ. I don’t try to reconcile myself with the evils many have done-I just try to reconcile myself to Christ and what He wants.
This is just how I see things. I hope this answers your question from at least one point of view.
Scout :tiphat:
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Raynd
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You and I are two people crossing a one way bridge…you refuse to accept any history other than biased - pro-catholic histories such as Crocker, and his book “Triumph” I suppose…so there is no point in our addressing eachother…you CANNOT POSSIBLY know what “history” I have read, and you CANNOT POSSIBLY refute my right to dissent, or the plausibility of it…by such statements like “I didn’t know the Pope had armies”…You feel that you don’t have to reconcile anything…so I have your answer. I’m not anti-religious…I’m anti ignorance…By your logic…it doesn’t take much of a stretch or “leap” to support Nazism…now does it? Sure a lot of people died - but the cause helped millions!..Turned a nation around… etc… etc…it’s laughable…as far as America is concerned…that is really just a weak, weak argument…I’m not even going to get into discussing the difference between an elected god belief vs. the happenstance of a geographical birthplace…I don’t have the time to educate you.
Grolsch:
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fix
Guest
There is nothing to reconcile. Your premise is false.
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felra
Guest
Please get your historical and biblical facts right before making erroneous conclusions/statements. Jesus Christ is the very “sure foundation” and “rock foundation” and “rejected cornerstone” of our Chrisitian faith. And the Church is built upon the blood of countless martrys (white and red martyrs) over the course of the centuries.
mar·tyr *n., defn. *
*]One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles.
*]One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle.
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Sunniva
Guest
Fiat,
You say it well. As a Norwegian I should loath myself for being an decendent of the Vikings. The Vikings were conquerors. They raped and killed when they were on “vacation” in on the British isles or other countries. In Britain there were said prayers in the churches asking God to protect them against the Norse Vikings.
Every country, culture, ethnic group, religion or denomination have done bad things in their past and unfortunately some still does.
The Church of Norway (Evangelical-Lutheran) was up to recent times active in separating families, sterilising men and women and in other ways persecuting people simply because they belonged to an ethnic group that had a way of life that some people in the Church of Norway meant were wrong.
Source: lists.becta.org.uk/pipermail/trav-ed/2001-April/000286.html
A religion, ethnic group, culture and country consists of individuals and we can’t blame everyone within the same culture or religion for something an individual or a number of individuals have done of bad acts.
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Grolsch
Guest
Heh, I am a history major so I think I have at least some idea of what I am talking about.
But still, I would like to offer my apologies to you. I mistook for another hit and runner and not someone honestly seeking answers. That’s why I jumped on you so hard.
Back to the original question. How do we reconcile?
First, we don’t accept your assertion that Catholicism is founded on killing innocent people. Catholicism was founded on the death of Jesus Christ and his apostles.
Secondly, Catholicism is a journey not a destination. That some people fail to live up to its ideals is fully recognized by everyone, especially Catholics. If you want to look for some other philosophy including atheistic ones, where all the members live impeccable lives I think you’ll be sorely disappointed. Such a thing doesn’t exist because people are intrinsically flawed which the Catholic Church recognizes. I think the words of Bishop Fulton Sheen express this clearly:
*** Every theologian ought to be a mystic; every D.D., or Doctor of Divinity, ought to be a saint. He knows enough to be one, but he does not will it. I am a D.D., but I am not a saint. May GOD have mercy on my soul.
***Thirdly, speaking for myself as a history student, I am well aware of the historical context of many of the accusations launched against the Catholic Church. We have heard them many times before and they have been refuted equally as many times. For example on the question of heresy: The Code of Justinian, which was the legal code used by most of europe, made heresy a capital offense. Heresy = treason against God = treason against King. While this law is archaic by our standards, it was taught and studied in all the universities throughout europe and was very envogue. So if a Pope extolled a ruler to deal with heretics, he wasn’t introducing any new religious law but upholding an already existing secular law which he learned in the universities.
Now there were some bad decisions which had little to do with religion and more with economy and politics which the Pope has apologized for. But that was then and we progress with the Church into the modern age.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
.
You are setting up a false dilemma in which you equate the “millions of deaths” purely and simply as due to adherence to the Christian faith, Catholic or Protestant, and then attempting to argue that post hoc, ergo propter hoc. . .because there have been millions of deaths, (they) have been due to “Christian faith”. . .as though there were no other factors to be considered, or as though these deaths were necessary to or required to “advance” said faiths.
Bunkum.
You’re like a horse with blinders on. . .able to see only one thing, that which is ahead of you, and blind to anything else. Blind to context, blind to history, blind to any worldview but your own.
How do you, my friend, reconcile your life as a 21st century, probably white male of mostly European ancestry? Your current life in the U.S. is built on a history of your ancestors engaging in slavery, oppression of women and minorities, unfair advantages, colonialism, warfare and privilege. Aren’t you ashamed to be what you are?
But wait. . .are you solely and simply the product of what your forebears were and did, or don’t you have any say in what you yourself are or do?
Hmmmm?
We are all individuals. While we Catholics are all a part of the Catholic church, we are not the whole church, which is the Church Militant (those of us on earth today), the Church Suffering (those in Purgatory) and the Church Triumphant (those in heaven). . .not to mention those who may have been members but who are now in hell due to mortal sin (s).
Those who may have done evil at the time have reaped the consequences. The actions of one, even of many, do not negate the truths of the Catholic faith, for any evil actions are, by their nature, antithetical to that faith.
Just as the actions of Hitler and those who freely choose to follow him did not negate the goodness of individual and even collective groups of German citizens for all time, but only for those who knew and freely chose to do evil at that time and never repented, the actions of those Christians who freely knew and chose evil at any time (unrepented) do not and will not negate the goodness of individual and of collective Catholics/ Catholicism, for our or for all time.
Your premise is false.
You are setting up a false dilemma in which you equate the “millions of deaths” purely and simply as due to adherence to the Christian faith, Catholic or Protestant, and then attempting to argue that post hoc, ergo propter hoc. . .because there have been millions of deaths, (they) have been due to “Christian faith”. . .as though there were no other factors to be considered, or as though these deaths were necessary to or required to “advance” said faiths.
Bunkum.
You’re like a horse with blinders on. . .able to see only one thing, that which is ahead of you, and blind to anything else. Blind to context, blind to history, blind to any worldview but your own.
How do you, my friend, reconcile your life as a 21st century, probably white male of mostly European ancestry? Your current life in the U.S. is built on a history of your ancestors engaging in slavery, oppression of women and minorities, unfair advantages, colonialism, warfare and privilege. Aren’t you ashamed to be what you are?
But wait. . .are you solely and simply the product of what your forebears were and did, or don’t you have any say in what you yourself are or do?
Hmmmm?
We are all individuals. While we Catholics are all a part of the Catholic church, we are not the whole church, which is the Church Militant (those of us on earth today), the Church Suffering (those in Purgatory) and the Church Triumphant (those in heaven). . .not to mention those who may have been members but who are now in hell due to mortal sin (s).
Those who may have done evil at the time have reaped the consequences. The actions of one, even of many, do not negate the truths of the Catholic faith, for any evil actions are, by their nature, antithetical to that faith.
Just as the actions of Hitler and those who freely choose to follow him did not negate the goodness of individual and even collective groups of German citizens for all time, but only for those who knew and freely chose to do evil at that time and never repented, the actions of those Christians who freely knew and chose evil at any time (unrepented) do not and will not negate the goodness of individual and of collective Catholics/ Catholicism, for our or for all time.
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Philthy
Guest
Hi Raynd -
Could you please formally and concisely state what facts you feel are difficult to “reconcile” for Catholics? Please start with some basic premise (ie the Catholic Church has committed countless atrocities) state a principal that is violated (ie murder is wrong) and then state your conclusion (ie therefore being a member of the CC is wrong) so that we can have some intelligent, focused dialogue. As it stands, I’m not sure what you want me to reconcile, and how to compare what I need to reconcile with.
thanks,
Phil
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
I think there are several things that can be said.
- Evil is evil - so, ISTM that it cannot be"reasonably" accounted: evil is fundamentally absurd, anti-rational, a nothingness posing as a “real thing”. Only good has any reality, and any being: and good is a reflection of the Being Who Is Good; of God. So, this “non-being” that we call evil, cannot be “fitted into” a reasoned account of the universe, because we cannot treat the non-thing that “is” evil as a real thing - evil is parasitic on what is real - it requires good and reality to exist at all. But it is an absence of reality that should not be absence - not a real thing, so any talk of it as though it were real, is to talk of it by analogy what something that it is not.
- God always has the last word, just as He had the first - so one has faith that God is present and active, even in the midst of evils, whether one is talking about the Nazi genocide, the recent tsunami, or, above all, the Cross. ISTM that the Cross is many things - including this: it is the supreme revelation of human wickedness. Christ did not meet evil by theorising about it: He got the better of it by taking it undiluted into himself, by meeting it head-on, by being totally immersed in it - so that He ended by being too much for it to swallow - so that He has definitively overcome it. And by doing this, He transforms it, and uses it for His own purposes: God uses even our sins for His purpose, which is a saving purpose.
- And this is a God Who is present with each of His creatures - we are not present at every evil, but He is. So it is not enough to look at the “outside” of evils - God is operative in them, turning even our sins & follies to His purposes. This does not let us off the hook at all, but it does mean that our malice never gets the better of God - because a God who can turn the sin of the Crucifixion into a manifestation of His Love, is unbeatable. He overcomes by weakness, not by strength. FWIW, I don’t stay Christian because of the Church, but because of the God Who uses even the sins of Christians - one’s own included - for His purposes. I think the Crucified God is the “answer” to this question. ##
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manualman
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Not sure if you’re still here, but I’ll take a crack at it. Bear with me and try to avoid reacting defensively. It’s a tough message I have to give you.
You may not be aware of it, but you seem to have an unconcious attitude that some organization or institution must be largely responsible for evil in the world. In reality, ALL HUMANITY is fallen, now having a selfish nature prone to all kinds of violence, greed, lust and unspeakable depravity. Jesus never promised to magically wipe all this away. In fact one of his own hand-picked 12 betrayed him for a few silver coins.
By condemning the church, many feel oh-so-righteous themselves in comparison (“I’ve never killed anyone”). In reality every one of us has dreadful sins staining our souls. You and I both are as much in need of mercy and grace as the worst dictator. You can spend your whole life finding millions of people who are worse than you are. But it will never cleanse the guilt deep inside you. Join us. Be forgiven. Accept the forgiveness of Christ and be healed.
I see nothing to reconcile. The church will always be made up of both sinners and saints who behave accordingly. However, the TEACHING of the church will always be true.
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
randyt- you talked about a one way bridge, it seems you are thowing the bombs and we are only reacting. reacting to the point that is has become absurd.
we need info on you too. ie, religion, country, age, etc. people in here are wasting their time when this is only a one way bridge. people lose thier temper and you sit back and laugh.
you also said talked about Prot/Cath as two denominations. The Church NOT a denomination, the protestants ARE denominations.
And about all these deaths, you talk as if you are a humanitarian trying to save the world. your just some punk getting a good laught.
we need info on you too. ie, religion, country, age, etc. people in here are wasting their time when this is only a one way bridge. people lose thier temper and you sit back and laugh.
you also said talked about Prot/Cath as two denominations. The Church NOT a denomination, the protestants ARE denominations.
And about all these deaths, you talk as if you are a humanitarian trying to save the world. your just some punk getting a good laught.
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mlchance
Guest
There is nothing to reconcile. Your supposed fact isn’t a fact.
If you want to see people who are responsible for about 100 million deaths in the 20th century alone, look at the atheists who ran the various Communist and Fascist dictatorships worldwide.
– Mark L. Chance.
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Raynd
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Ok guys…some got a little miffed (did someone call me a punk?)…hahaha - I like it. I like the “passion”…(me included) Grolsch did a great job of standing strong, and grottle is very smooth…an even keel if you will - strong also… You guys are all strong enough even to make me realize that I should have titled the thread…“How do we as human beings reconcile the relation with our brothers who have fallen into religion…AND western religion imparticular?”…that is better I think. See I’m working on a book idea…the working title is “The Birth of Evil”…I am in a very early stage here so “bare” with me (plus it is late, and I’m tired)…snicker. I contend that looking back as far as we can…at least somewhere around 1200bce when the veda texts were put into final form (the basis of the hindu religion)…and on through the hellenic…hellinistic age etc…etc… we can begin to understand how the modern definition of evil came about…yes there have always been bad people…but the birth of christianity spawned the birth of evil through the evolution of persian zoroastrianism…and the jewish temple peoples…Did you know that some apostate jews rejected god, and the laws of moses so strongly that they rededicated THE TEMPLE to Zeus!!!..anyway back to the story. The hebrews had some good fortune on the fields of war (notice the word WAR)…but they started losing…so their theology evolved around the idea that they had failed god and he was punishing them…see the idea is that war…as early as we can figure has not only been tied to money, power, land aquisition or whatever…but more importantly, an intolerance of other people. Religion is at the core of this…it is deeply rooted…with a vicelike grip on the heart of the common man who has not learned to believe in his own self as soverign. Which is why the common man will not hesitate to butcher those that are different…or of different “faiths”…and cultures. It is all inextricably related.
If you can’t read the old testament (where Satan is hardly ever mentioned)…but instead it is God who is dishing out, and “birthing” the evil if you will…and see how the stories evolve into the NT…if you can’t realize the intolerance of the proclamation “one true god”…if you can’t understand or read the papal decrees…( I love the one by “Benedict regarding the jews”…) if you can’t see how this legitimizes evil…and provides for it a house to grow in…well it puzzles me to no end…I’m going to go for now…we will talk some more later. Forgive the sketchiness of the post… I’m a bit cooked, and it’s late.
If you can’t read the old testament (where Satan is hardly ever mentioned)…but instead it is God who is dishing out, and “birthing” the evil if you will…and see how the stories evolve into the NT…if you can’t realize the intolerance of the proclamation “one true god”…if you can’t understand or read the papal decrees…( I love the one by “Benedict regarding the jews”…) if you can’t see how this legitimizes evil…and provides for it a house to grow in…well it puzzles me to no end…I’m going to go for now…we will talk some more later. Forgive the sketchiness of the post… I’m a bit cooked, and it’s late.
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RobedWithLight
Guest
The very foundation? The Church, upon being established never had it easy. It met with strident and violent opposition immediately, from Jews as well as from pagans, the first and greatest example of which is the Crucifixion of Jesus our Lord. St. Stephen was condemned to be stoned. St. Paul was beheaded. St. Peter was crucified, supposedly upside down. All the apostles, except St. John paid dearly for their faith with their blood.
If the bedrock of the Church is built upon millions of deaths, in a sense yes, it was built upon the blood of her martyrs.
Gerry
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RobedWithLight
Guest
Exactly.
Frenchmen should not be ashamed of being French, and Americans of being Americans, simply because their countries were undeniably the offspring of violent revolution and war.
Gerry
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Church_Militant
Guest
N.P Bro. Pax vobiscum,
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Sherlock
Guest
Are you an Objectivist, by any chance? Just wondering about your screen name. If so, it would explain the hostility to religion and reason.
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