How Do You Understand Church Teaching About Our Blessed Mother?

[Magdalena59]

For the last time-
NO ONE IS SAYING WE CANNOT TALK ABOUT MARY OR THAT MARY IS NOT IMPORTANT!!

Very sorry. Sometimes it feels that way. ^^

 

[pianistclare]

Very sorry. Sometimes it feels that way. ^^

It’s not the topic that is in question.
It’s the interpretation of what actually is Church teaching.

 

[patricius79]

There is nothing to talk about.
Through Mary’s “yes” to God, the Messiah was born.
That makes her important, but she is not my Savior, her Son is.

I never disagreed that Mary was important. What I disagree with is you trying to make it seem that if someone does not have a personal devotion to Mary the way YOU DO, we are somehow missing out on something or denying her importance.

I have a very satisfying spiritual life. I spend much time in prayer, have a wonderful prayer relationship with Jesus, avail myself of the Sacraments frequently and donate much of my time & talent to my parish. I have taken to praying a weekly Rosary for the intentions of my Pastor as one of my Lenten practices, but normally, the Rosary does not have a big place in my spiritual life.
Any you know what- I am happy, content and know that I am doing what I need to in order to honor God.

Dear sister,

That’s wonderful (about your spiritual life)). And yes of course we agree that Mary is not our Savior, and that Jesus is our Savior.

Mary’s role as our Mother in grace is entirely a gift from Jesus Christ, our God.

As JPII says, the fundamental and supreme mystery of our faith is the Incarnation. As you say, through Mary’s “yes” to her Spouse the Holy Spirit, the Messiah, our God, was conceived born.

I don’t at all think that someone must have a personal devotion to Mary in the way I do. Our Mother’s relationship with each of her children is unique and unrepeatable.

 

[James248]

Dear sister,

That’s wonderful (about your spiritual life)). And yes of course we agree that Mary is not our Savior, and that Jesus is our Savior.

Mary’s role as our Mother in grace is entirely a gift from Jesus Christ, our God.

As JPII says, the fundamental and supreme mystery of our faith is the Incarnation. As you say, through Mary’s “yes” to her Spouse the Holy Spirit, the Messiah, our God, was conceived born.

I don’t at all think that someone must have a personal devotion to Mary in the way I do. Our Mother’s relationship with each of her children is unique and unrepeatable.

Is not the summit of our faith the sacrifice Jesus made, the one that started in the Cenacle and ended on Calvary?

 

[Magdalena59]

In response to the OP question I think it is very interesting that the Church has certain feast days that honor the Blessed Mother. The three that are Holy Days of Obligation line up with three of the dogmas of Mary; the Assumption, her title as Mother of God and her Immaculate Conception. Just knowing why these days are Holy Days of obligation helps bring understanding to Marian teachings in the Church.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I thought maybe if you were going to speak to the forum administrator maybe a suggestion could be to have a section on Catholic Answers for those who do want to discuss the Blessed Mother and the Saints.

Your request is directed to the wrong person. I would never be supportive of such a suggestion for this forum. I find the organisation, with the sub-forum of “spirituality,” to be quite sound as it is.

 

[Magdalena59]

Your request is directed to the wrong person. I would never be supportive of such a suggestion for this forum. I find the organisation, with the sub-forum of “spirituality,” to be quite sound as it is.

Ok I understand. As I said it was just a thought.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

In response to the OP question I think it is very interesting that the Church has certain feast days that honor the Blessed Mother. The three that are Holy Days of Obligation line up with three of the dogmas of Mary; the Assumption, her title as Mother of God and her Immaculate Conception.

Because those are three points to which the assent of obsequium fidei is due, because of Munificentissimus Deus, the Council of Ephesus, and Ineffabilis Deus, respectively…although they are not universally Holy Days of Obligation throughout the world. They are in the United States, with exceptions.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

For the last time-
NO ONE IS SAYING WE CANNOT TALK ABOUT MARY OR THAT MARY IS NOT IMPORTANT!!

Now, with that out of the way, the problem is not with discussions of Mary, veneration of her or what other Saints, Popes and learned men & women have written about her.

The problem is with the OP’s misunderstanding of what the Church actually teaches and their refusal to take fraternal correction from those who do know. The other part of the problem is the insistence that the Church that requires some sort of Marian devotion as part of our path to salvation.

Not only is the OP making a mockery of Marian devotion, as the good Father states, they are doing a great disservice to Catholics, this forum and anyone who comes here seeking truth.

Precisely and well said.

 

[Magdalena59]

Because those are three points to which the assent of obsequium fidei is due, because of Munificentissimus Deus, the Council of Ephesus, and Ineffabilis Deus, respectively…although they are not universally Holy Days of Obligation throughout the world. They are in the United States, with exceptions.

oops, yes you are correct. I should have said they were in the United States.

 

[patricius79]

Is not the summit of our faith the sacrifice Jesus made, the one that started in the Cenacle and ended on Calvary?

Yes, dear brother, and it is there that the union of the Mother and the Son in the work of our redemption reaches its height as you say.

John Paul II also says in Redemptoris Mater that the Incarnation is the supreme mystery.

I can’t understand the mystery but I know the Incarnation and the sacrifice on the Cross–where Mary is spiritually crucified with Her Divine Son (as a Pope put it)–are profoundly connected.

Also, as JPII says, the Body of Christ which we receive in the Sacrifice of the Eucharist (which is one with the Sacrifice of Calvary) is the same Body which became Incarnate at the Incarnation, when the whole salvific economy is concentrated within our "Co-Redemptrix (as JPII and other Popes call her).

Peace of Jesus Christ, your brother,

Pat

 

[patricius79]

I think this is the point to be underscored. The person demonstrates that he is, unfortunately, simply incapable of being engaged with rationally.

He enunciated positions faithless to the Church’s teaching. That is the other point to be underscored.

Dear Father Ruggero,

I’m sorry that we don’t entirely agree. And maybe in part there is some miscommunication.

Maybe you could pick the point on which you believe I’m most in error, and slowly, kindly try to correct me using brief quotations from authoritative documents of the Church.

And maybe we could build on what we agree about, such as the subordinate nature of our Mediatrix’s role.

JPII says that our Mother “occupies a unique place in the whole economy of salvation”

Can we agree on these things and build from there?

Peace of Jesus Christ,

Pat

 

[pianistclare]

From Lumen Gentium:

This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.[15] By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.[16] This, however, is so understood that it neither takes away anything from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator.[17]

No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.

The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary, which it constantly experiences and recommends to the heartfelt attention of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more closely adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer.

 

[Magdalena59]

From Lumen Gentium:

This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.[15] By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.[16] This, however, is so understood that it neither takes away anything from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator.[17]

No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.

The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary, which it constantly experiences and recommends to the heartfelt attention of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more closely adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer.

That is a very good quote. I like this part also of the document:

For Mary, who since her entry into salvation history unites in herself and re-echoes the greatest teachings of the faith as she is proclaimed and venerated,* calls the faithful to her Son and His sacrifice and to the love of the Father.***

It is interesting to think of how her role in salvation history always and only leads us to her son. Even though she was not officially given the title of co-Redemptrix, Church teaching points to her in that role but sometimes that title or that thought causes a lot of confusion for people for it makes them think that she is equal to Jesus in redemption but that is a misunderstanding. Like your quote said she is subordinate. Co-Redemptrix actually means “the woman with the Redeemer” or as the Apostolic Constitution Ubi primum says “She was the co-operatrix in man’s redemption”.

Sometimes I don’t always understand the why’s of Jesus’ ways but I tell myself I just have to accept it as He tells us to, with the faith of a child.

 

[patricius79]

From Lumen Gentium:

This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.[15] By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.[16] This, however, is so understood that it neither takes away anything from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator.[17]

No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.

The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary, which it constantly experiences and recommends to the heartfelt attention of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more closely adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer.

Amen, dear sister, pianistclare! Mary’s “saving office” as Mother of each unique person, and as Mediatrix, adds nothing to Christ, and subtracts nothing from Christ.

As Vatican II says, Mary’s unique union with Christ in the work of salvation actually shows Christ’s power.

Our Mother leads us, in her Divine Spouse (the Holy Spirit), to Jesus Christ.

According to Peggy Frye, a Catholic Answers apologist, Mary as Co-redemptrix is the doctrine of the Catholic Church
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=2725

 

[JM3]

Pope Blessed Paul VI

The development, desired by us, of devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary is an indication of the Church’s genuine piety. This devotion fits-as we have indicated above-into the only worship that is rightly called “Christian,” because it takes its origin and effectiveness from Christ, finds its complete expression in Christ, and leads through Christ in the Spirit to the Father. In the sphere of worship this devotion necessarily reflects God’s redemptive plan, in which a special form of veneration is appropriate to the singular place which Mary occupies in that plan.(4) Indeed every authentic development of Christian worship is necessarily followed by a fitting increase of veneration for the Mother of the Lord.

This Tremendous Lover by Dom Eugene Boylan, O.C.R., Chapter 22 - Mary, the mother of the whole Christ, pages 320-321.

The doctrine, however, of the universal mediation of Mary, insofar as it applies that no grace is given to us without the intercession of Mary, is proxima fidei. That she is our spiritual mother is de fidei. It must be clearly understood that in making her thus a partner in the acquisition and distribution of the fruits of the Redemption, God was yielding to no necessity, for Christ is a sufficient and perfect Redeemer and Mediator. But he wished in the liberality of His mercy to make Mary the associate of His Son, so she might share in His glory and joy in heaven. It was the perfection of her loving abandonment and faith-inspiring humility that made it possible that a creature should be given such an amazing share in the divine work of restoration without any risk or injury to God’s plan or detraction from His glory.
For us, too, a similar principle holds good. God wills to make us share in the work of our own salvation and to cooperate in the salvation of others. In fact, Christ Himself wills to share all His work with us; and so does Mary, the mother of Christ. Since the first motive of all that work is the glory of God, humility is the first condition of our admittance into a share of it. The rest of our part consists in the loving performance and acceptance of God’s will. This, too, is the very means by Christ to share in the Maternity of Mary: “Whosoever shall do the will of God…is my mother.” (see Mark 3:35). By doing the will of God in humble love in the ordinary things of life, we bring forth Christ in ourselves and, through the communion of saints, in others also. The very acts which unite us to Christ unite us to His mother and make us share in the work of each of them. As St. Augustine writes: “Every faithful soul doing the will of the Father with a most fruitful charity is mother to Christ, in those whom He quickens until Christ is formed in them.” (De sancto virginitate, 5) If with St. Paul we can say we fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ for His body, the Church, so also we can say we fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Mary for the body of her child, which is the Church. We are called to live in a close union of will and life and function with both Jesus and Mary. And the closer we keep to Mary, the closer we shall be to Christ.
There is nothing extraordinary required of us in external works. Our Lady is the perfect model of the Christian. But what a rebuke to our notions and standards! She had the best-equipped mind that ever lived in Christendom. She was enlightened as no prophet ever had been enlightened. She had a power of intercession of which no one can determine the limit. She had a zeal for her Son’s glory and for her Son’s work that burned more fiercely than the zeal of all the great souls of the Church. Yet what was her life? Ordinary - obscure - laborious! The wife of a village carpenter, she takes care to lose herself in the crowd. The mother of the far-famed Messiah, she appears but once in His public life between Cana and the Passion. The most enlightened and zealous member of His Church, she is invisible to our eyes from the day of Pentecost. She gives but one message to men in words and preaches a lifelong sermon in obscurity and silence. All her desires seem to have centered on her own effacement. Even the active work of preaching Christ and teaching His doctrine she left to others, though tradition has it that the disciples found in her a gentle instructress and calm inspiration for their ministry. There would be much more holiness, as there would also be much more happiness, in the world if her Christian sons and especially her Christian daughters were to imitate her example.

The Mother of Christ

The Mariology of Cardinal Journet

 

[patricius79]

That is a very good quote. I like this part also of the document:

For Mary, who since her entry into salvation history unites in herself and re-echoes the greatest teachings of the faith as she is proclaimed and venerated,* calls the faithful to her Son and His sacrifice and to the love of the Father.***

It is interesting to think of how her role in salvation history always and only leads us to her son. Even though she was not officially given the title of co-Redemptrix, Church teaching points to her in that role but sometimes that title or that thought causes a lot of confusion for people for it makes them think that she is equal to Jesus in redemption but that is a misunderstanding. .

Dear sister, Magdalena,

That is why some don’t want “Coredemptrix” dogmatically defined, even thought it is is part of the ordinary Magisterium of the Church, having been repeatedly taught by the Papacy, which teaches that Mary offered Jesus–her son and God-- to the Father’s Justice on Calvary as the New Eve and Coredemptrix.

Already in the second century St. Irenaeus calls Mary the “cause of our salvation”–on other words, Cosalvatrix (Coredemptrix)

The word “Coredemptrix” is not used by Vatican II, but the teaching is very clear about her “saving office” and her union with Christ in the work of salvation.

*57. This union of the Mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to His death …

…After this manner the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross, where she stood, in keeping with the divine plan,(294) grieving exceedingly with her only begotten Son, uniting herself with a maternal heart with His sacrifice, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth. Finally, she was given by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross as a mother to His disciple with these words: “Woman, behold thy son”.(295) (11*)
…
The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power. For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. I

… She conceived, brought forth and nourished Christ. she presented Him to the Father in the temple, and was united with Him by compassion as He died on the Cross. In this singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Saviour in giving back supernatural life to souls. Wherefore she is our mother in the order of grace.*
ewtn.com/library/councils/v2church.htm

It is so simple. The Crucified Christ gave us Mary as our inexpressibly-good Mother so that we could be as close to Him as possible!

 

[Magdalena59]

Dear sister, Magdalena,

That is why some don’t want “Coredemptrix” dogmatically defined, even thought it is is part of the ordinary Magisterium of the Church, having been repeatedly taught by the Papacy, which teaches that Mary offered Jesus–her son and God-- to the Father’s Justice on Calvary as the New Eve and Coredemptrix.

Already in the second century St. Irenaeus calls Mary the “cause of our salvation”–on other words, Cosalvatrix (Coredemptrix)

The word “Coredemptrix” is not used by Vatican II, but the teaching is very clear about her “saving office” and her union with Christ in the work of salvation.

*57. This union of the Mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to His death *…

…After this manner the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross, where she stood, in keeping with the divine plan,(294) grieving exceedingly with her only begotten Son, uniting herself with a maternal heart with His sacrifice, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth. Finally, she was given by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross as a mother to His disciple with these words: “Woman, behold thy son”.(295) (11*)
…
The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power. For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. I

… She conceived, brought forth and nourished Christ. she presented Him to the Father in the temple, and was united with Him by compassion as He died on the Cross. In this singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Saviour in giving back supernatural life to souls. Wherefore she is our mother in the order of grace.
ewtn.com/library/councils/v2church.htm

It is so simple. The Crucified Christ gave us Mary as our inexpressibly-good Mother so that we could be as close to Him as possible!

Well put.

 

[patricius79]

Well put.

Dear daughter of Mary and my sister in Jesus Christ, Magdalena,

Yes, Lumen Gentium is beautiful, as is Redemptoris Mater by Pope St. JPII, who says that Mary stands at the center of the salvific mystery.

Apparently, the theologians who prepared the text of Lumen Gentium said that Coredemptrix is “absolutely true”, but that they didn’t include it because they didn’t think the Protestants would understand.

For this very questionable reasoning, the Bishops never had a chance to vote on the title of Coredemptrix, which, as I say, is already the doctrine of the Catholic Church, having been repeatedly taught by the ordinary Magisterium.

Dr. Mark Miravalle writes:

One certain reason for the absence of the Co-
redemptrix title in the final version of the conciliar
treatment on the Blessed Virgin is the inclusion of a
“prohibition” for the title written by a theological
subcommittee in the form of an “Explanatory Note”
(Praenotanda), which immediately follows the text of the
original Marian schema as it was distributed to the Council
Fathers. The subcommission’s prohibition reads: “Certain
expressions and words used by Supreme Pontiffs have been
omitted, which, in themselves are absolutely true, but which
may be understood with difficulty by separated brethren
(in this case, Protestants). Among such words may be
numbered the following: ‘Co-redemptrix of the human
race’ [Pius X, Pius XI] . . . .”13
fifthmariandogma.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/with_jesus.pdf

Miravalle’s whole book about this is on the web at that link. What a good man to make it available.

How beautiful how much he loves his Mother!

 

[Magdalena59]

Dear daughter of Mary and my sister in Jesus Christ, Magdalena,

Yes, Lumen Gentium is beautiful, as is Redemptoris Mater by Pope St. JPII, who says that Mary stands at the center of the salvific mystery.

Apparently, the theologians who prepared the text of Lumen Gentium said that Coredemptrix is “absolutely true”, but that they didn’t include it because they didn’t think the Protestants would understand.

For this very questionable reasoning, the Bishops never had a chance to vote on the title of Coredemptrix, which, as I say, is already the doctrine of the Catholic Church, having been repeatedly taught by the ordinary Magisterium.

Dr. Mark Miravalle writes:

One certain reason for the absence of the Co-
redemptrix title in the final version of the conciliar
treatment on the Blessed Virgin is the inclusion of a
“prohibition” for the title written by a theological
subcommittee in the form of an “Explanatory Note”
(Praenotanda), which immediately follows the text of the
original Marian schema as it was distributed to the Council
Fathers. The subcommission’s prohibition reads: “Certain
expressions and words used by Supreme Pontiffs have been
omitted, which, in themselves are absolutely true, but which
may be understood with difficulty by separated brethren
(in this case, Protestants). Among such words may be
numbered the following: ‘Co-redemptrix of the human
race’ [Pius X, Pius XI] . . . .”13

fifthmariandogma.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/with_jesus.pdf

Miravalle’s whole book about this is on the web at that link. What a good man to make it available.

How beautiful how much he loves his Mother!

What a great quote. The doctrine is there, they were just being cautious in their wording.