How does a Catholic in my situation have rational faith?

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I am a Catholic. Up until now, I have trusted my parents and the Church that Catholicism is true. That trust was rational, I think, because it is rational for children to have faith that their parents know better than them. However, now that I have matured, my intellect no longer finds the basis for that trust satisfying. I am currently researching the preambles to the faith and the motives of credibility. Ok, while I am searching, can I still have faith in God and in the Church that is AUTHENTIC and RATIONAL and SAVING? Or is it the case that my faith is suspended until I can convince myself of the existence of God and the authority of the Catholic Church?

In other words, how does a Catholic in my situation have a faith that is authentic, rational, and saving despite the fact that my intellect is not satisfied (yet) of the existence of God, the claims of Christ, and the authority of the Catholic Church?

The Catholic Church is astonishingly wise, so I know there is an answer to my question, but I just do not know what it is!
 
Blessed Mother Teresa was plagued by these same doubts for years! Read her biography and you will find some peace. God Bless you in your journey.
 
PermanentMarker said:
I am a Catholic. Up until now, I have trusted my parents and the Church that Catholicism is true. That trust was rational, I think, because it is rational for children to have faith that their parents know better than them. However, now that I have matured, my intellect no longer finds the basis for that trust satisfying. I am currently researching the preambles to the faith and the motives of credibility. Ok, while I am searching, can I still have faith in God and in the Church that is AUTHENTIC and RATIONAL and SAVING? Or is it the case that my faith is suspended until I can convince myself of the existence of God and the authority of the Catholic Church?

In other words, how does a Catholic in my situation have a faith that is authentic, rational, and saving despite the fact that my intellect is not satisfied (yet) of the existence of God, the claims of Christ, and the authority of the Catholic Church?

The Catholic Church is astonishingly wise, so I know there is an answer to my question, but I just do not know what it is!
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Maybe one of Dr. Peter Kreeft’s books would help. He’s a Philosophy prof at Boston College. Try the Handbook of Catholic Apologetics. We are called to give intellectual assent to the teachings of the Church - if for no other reason than the blood of those who have died for the faith. I know of no agnostic or atheistic martyrs.
 
Well, friend, my suggestion is to look into the arguments from St. Thomas Aquinas. You can also read books by Catholic Apologists. You can also listen to podcasts. Dr. Peter Kreeft has some good ones that you can find on Itunes for free.

Don’t worry about yourself at this point. You long for the truth and that is a great thing. Ask and you shall receive, search openly for the truth and you shall find it. A couple of years back when I was entering High School, I actually went through something similar to you. I literally questioned everything.

So, first I had to realize if I believed God created the Universe. Eventually, I realized that for there to be anything, there has to be some first thing that has created the rest of the Universe from itself. There can’t be an infinite line of things heading back, there has to be something “in the beginnning.” Christianity claims this first and uncaused thing to be a loving, all-powerful God. If you believe this your life has purpose and you are called to something greater, if not then it doesn’t matter what you believe.

Next, I had to figure out which religion I believed to be true. Eventually,it dawned on me during adoration at my church through the power and beauty in Christ and specifically in the Passion and the love Christ showed during His death, I believed that this had to be right (I understand that emotions isn’t the best way to choose, but as the years have gone by I have looked at it more intelligently and also found that the other religions out there tend to be extremely human and predictable). So, this lead me into an obsession with religions and has taught me a lot (wikipedia really helped 👍). My suggestion is if you are looking to learn more specifically about Catholicism, read Catholic Christianity by Peter Kreeft, if you are looking for a great book on Christianity, C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity.

My final suggestion is to find something that just oozes beauty to you. Something that fascinates you and literally gives you chills. I have found that music (Air suite nr. 3, come sail away, Bohemian Rhapsody and other great hits) and staring at the stars are the most beautiful things I can find. If you can find something you believe to be truly beautiful, it will help you to know there is a God. It’s very hard to explain. When Peter Kreeft describes it he simply says, “There exists the music of Bach, therefore God must exist. You either get this one or you don’t” He also says that he has met some atheists have been converted because of this. So, find something of beauty and this might help you to believe. But whatever happens know that we will all be here on this forum prepared to answer any question whether you do it through a post or a personal message so good luck in your search and God bless.
 
PermanentMarker said:
I am a Catholic. Up until now, I have trusted my parents and the Church that Catholicism is true. That trust was rational, I think, because it is rational for children to have faith that their parents know better than them. However, now that I have matured, my intellect no longer finds the basis for that trust satisfying. I am currently researching the preambles to the faith and the motives of credibility. Ok, while I am searching, can I still have faith in God and in the Church that is AUTHENTIC and RATIONAL and SAVING? Or is it the case that my faith is suspended until I can convince myself of the existence of God and the authority of the Catholic Church?

In other words, how does a Catholic in my situation have a faith that is authentic, rational, and saving despite the fact that my intellect is not satisfied (yet) of the existence of God, the claims of Christ, and the authority of the Catholic Church?

The Catholic Church is astonishingly wise, so I know there is an answer to my question, but I just do not know what it is!
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Lol, well its always been very reassuring to my Catholic friend that a former Baptist like myself converted to Catholicism on the basis of thought and research… :juggle:

The Bible says “test all things; hold fast to what is good.” Proverbs 19:2 says “Desire without wisdom is not good, and the one who moves too hurriedly misses the way.” So I’d say good job, you’re doing exactly what you’re supposed to do. 👍

Also, I think fundamentalists or “blind faith” Christians have less faith than the responsible Christian, because the responsible Christian isn’t afraid to face the possibility that he might be wrong while diving into controversial subjects. 🙂
 
I want to thank everyone for their responses, but I think there may be a misunderstanding that I need to correct. The topic of this thread is not about religious apologetics but about the broader principles of faith and reason. I do not think I am at risk of becoming an atheist - I find atheism and many of its modern-day adherents to be both morally and intellectually repugnant. I am more confident than not about the success of religious apologetics, but that is not the point. The point is that I have not convinced myself of that yet. So, while I investigate the preambula fidei, what, then, becomes of my faith? Can I have authentic, rational, and saving faith in a God whose existence has not been demonstrated to my intellectual satisfaction yet? To have faith during this search, must I take irrational leap? Or is there something I am not seeing?

In other words, here and now, is it possible for me to have authentic, rational, and saving faith even if I have not convinced myself of the preambula fidei yet? Or must my faith be fideistic if I am to have faith at all here and now?
 
God’s existence has been reassuring to me in this way:

The universe is set in rational laws that we can discover and understand. We don’t make gravity or a periodic table of elements, we discover them. If there were no conscious thought behind the universe, we’d expect it to be arbitrary (unpredictable.) In other words, there would be no need for an established consciousness or thought behind the fabric of the universe. There would be no need for the existence of a rational, predictable universe that functions in and of itself.

The Church doctrines that bothered me the most were the Marian doctrines, but then I researched the miricals at Fatima and Lourdes, France (especially Lourdes,) and that was reassuring to Catholic dogma AND the existence of God. 🙂

It was especially reassuring when I saw explicit Catholic dogma expressed in the Bible as well: Reconciliation John 20:23, the Primacy of the Pope Matt. 16:18, Purgatory 1 Cor. 3:15-16 etc…
 
PermanentMarker said:
I want to thank everyone for their responses, but I think there may be a misunderstanding that I need to correct. The topic of this thread is not about religious apologetics but about the broader principles of faith and reason. I do not think I am at risk of becoming an atheist - I find atheism and many of its modern-day adherents to be both morally and intellectually repugnant. I am more confident than not about the success of religious apologetics, but that is not the point. The point is that I have not convinced myself of that yet. So, while I investigate the preambula fidei, what, then, becomes of my faith? Can I have authentic, rational, and saving faith in a God whose existence has not been demonstrated to my intellectual satisfaction yet? To have faith during this search, must I take irrational leap? Or is there something I am not seeing?

In other words, here and now, is it possible for me to have authentic, rational, and saving faith even if I have not convinced myself of the preambula fidei yet? Or must my faith be fideistic if I am to have faith at all here and now?
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Professor Kreeft addresses your concerns specifically.

Chapter 2: Faith and reason;
Chapter 3: Twenty arguments for the existence of God;
Chapter 4: The nature of God
Chapter 5: Four problems of Cosmology
Chapter 14: Christianity and other religions
Chapter 15: Objective truth

I do not think you will be disappointed with his book.
 
PermanentMarker said:
I am a Catholic. Up until now, I have trusted my parents and the Church that Catholicism is true. That trust was rational, I think, because it is rational for children to have faith that their parents know better than them. However, now that I have matured, my intellect no longer finds the basis for that trust satisfying. I am currently researching the preambles to the faith and the motives of credibility. Ok, while I am searching, can I still have faith in God and in the Church that is AUTHENTIC and RATIONAL and SAVING? Or is it the case that my faith is suspended until I can convince myself of the existence of God and the authority of the Catholic Church?

In other words, how does a Catholic in my situation have a faith that is authentic, rational, and saving despite the fact that my intellect is not satisfied (yet) of the existence of God, the claims of Christ, and the authority of the Catholic Church?

The Catholic Church is astonishingly wise, so I know there is an answer to my question, but I just do not know what it is!
Click to expand...
You don’t have to have understanding to have faith. I think a rational thing would be to continue on with what you do believe until you find a reason not to believe it. You assume you have to start from nothing before you can start believing in anything, and I don’t see why that is necessary. Start by assuming the Church is true since that is where your at already, and then go from there. Then all your questions become “Why do I believe …?” and you go searching for the answers.

As I pointed out on another thread you don’t have to be 100% sure in the existence of God to believe he exists. You just have to be more sure that there is one as opposed to there not being one 😉
 
PermanentMarker said:
I want to thank everyone for their responses, but I think there may be a misunderstanding that I need to correct. The topic of this thread is not about religious apologetics but about the broader principles of faith and reason. I do not think I am at risk of becoming an atheist - I find atheism and many of its modern-day adherents to be both morally and intellectually repugnant. I am more confident than not about the success of religious apologetics, but that is not the point. The point is that I have not convinced myself of that yet. So, while I investigate the preambula fidei, what, then, becomes of my faith? Can I have authentic, rational, and saving faith in a God whose existence has not been demonstrated to my intellectual satisfaction yet? To have faith during this search, must I take irrational leap? Or is there something I am not seeing?

In other words, here and now, is it possible for me to have authentic, rational, and saving faith even if I have not convinced myself of the preambula fidei yet? Or must my faith be fideistic if I am to have faith at all here and now?
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I believe that the person’s faith that carries on even when he is questioning is an honorable form of faith. It is the true form of faith that isn’t supposed to waver, it is trusting. As someone else said, look into Mother Teresa who continued to believe although she could not feel God and experienced many doubts.
 
po18guy said:
Professor Kreeft addresses your concerns specifically.

Chapter 2: Faith and reason;
Chapter 3: Twenty arguments for the existence of God;
Chapter 4: The nature of God
Chapter 5: Four problems of Cosmology
Chapter 14: Christianity and other religions
Chapter 15: Objective truth

I do not think you will be disappointed with his book.
Click to expand...
I will check it out. I have the book. I do not think he addresses my question, but we’ll see. I have been wrong before.

Thanks.
 
PermanentMarker said:
I want to thank everyone for their responses, but I think there may be a misunderstanding that I need to correct. The topic of this thread is not about religious apologetics but about the broader principles of faith and reason. I do not think I am at risk of becoming an atheist - I find atheism and many of its modern-day adherents to be both morally and intellectually repugnant. I am more confident than not about the success of religious apologetics, but that is not the point. The point is that I have not convinced myself of that yet. So, while I investigate the preambula fidei, what, then, becomes of my faith? Can I have authentic, rational, and saving faith in a God whose existence has not been demonstrated to my intellectual satisfaction yet? To have faith during this search, must I take irrational leap? Or is there something I am not seeing?

In other words, here and now, is it possible for me to have authentic, rational, and saving faith even if I have not convinced myself of the preambula fidei yet? Or must my faith be fideistic if I am to have faith at all here and now?
Click to expand...
You are not exactly in the position of someone who is still arriving at a faith. You have had faith as a child, and now you are questioning it, so you are in the position which many of us find ourselves in from time to time, that of questioning a faith which we already have. This may happen to you several times over your life.

I make this point because when this happens to us our response is to re-examine the proofs of the faith, look at further proofs, and to hold onto what faith we have (well, that’s what I do).

One particular way I prove my faith during these times is to reject the temptation to sin, and avoid the Sacraments, with the excuse “I don’t believe it all, anway”. If I am still practicing my religion, and its demands, then I have some faith.

Do you have a saving faith? Ultimately, only you, and God, know that. There may be others here who can give a better informed answer, but my opinion is that if you are still practicing your faith, and making a sincere effort to “prove” it, then that is probably enough.

When I doubt, there is one scripture which I put ahead of all others:

And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.” Jn 12:32

If I keep in mind Jesus’s sacrifice, and honor it, during my intellectual search, then He is drawing me to himself.

All the other suggestions about Apologetics and miracles (Fatima and Lourdes particularly) are sound, and I hope to look up some of them myself.
 
Edmundus1581 said:
You are not exactly in the position of someone who is still arriving at a faith. You have had faith as a child, and now you are questioning it, so you are in the position which many of us find ourselves in from time to time, that of questioning a faith which we already have. This may happen to you several times over your life.
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Ah, this actually may be a helpful distinction that I can reflect on. Thank you!
 
Nate13 said:
You don’t have to have understanding to have faith. I think a rational thing would be to continue on with what you do believe until you find a reason not to believe it. You assume you have to start from nothing before you can start believing in anything, and I don’t see why that is necessary. Start by assuming the Church is true since that is where your at already, and then go from there. Then all your questions become “Why do I believe …?” and you go searching for the answers.

As I pointed out on another thread you don’t have to be 100% sure in the existence of God to believe he exists. You just have to be more sure that there is one as opposed to there not being one 😉
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Great answer! You don't have to have complete understanding in order to believe. For example, I don't really understand electricity, but I have complete faith that my light will go on when I turn the switch (barring power outages, etc.). That's an over-simplification, but I think you get the point. In fact, to honestly investigate the truths of our faith is an act of faith in itself.
 
PermanentMarker said:
I am a Catholic. Up until now, I have trusted my parents and the Church that Catholicism is true. That trust was rational, I think, because it is rational for children to have faith that their parents know better than them. However, now that I have matured, my intellect no longer finds the basis for that trust satisfying. I am currently researching the preambles to the faith and the motives of credibility. Ok, while I am searching, can I still have faith in God and in the Church that is AUTHENTIC and RATIONAL and SAVING? Or is it the case that my faith is suspended until I can convince myself of the existence of God and the authority of the Catholic Church?

In other words, how does a Catholic in my situation have a faith that is authentic, rational, and saving despite the fact that my intellect is not satisfied (yet) of the existence of God, the claims of Christ, and the authority of the Catholic Church?

The Catholic Church is astonishingly wise, so I know there is an answer to my question, but I just do not know what it is!
Click to expand...
Welcome to CAF Permanent:

First of all, if you are looking for some quick and easy sound-bite answers, while you may find them herein, I doubt they will satisfy you. And, St. Thomas Aquinas is definitely not a quick fix.either! He was perhaps the most astounding philosopher that has ever lived, no matter what you may read about his work anywhere. But, it may take a lifetime of reading to get all of him.

My recommendation would be Fr. Robert Spitzer’s new book (found on amazon.com and other places and well worth the price) called, NEW PROOFS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD Contributions of Contemporary Physics and Philosophy. It’s around 300 pages - but I assure you it is no easy read. You may want to read it twice. (I am on my second reading as we speak.)

It is based upon Aquinas, to some extent, Bernard Lonergan (a more recent philosopher), a plethora of contemporary physics, and some rather impervious reasoning and logic. You may find your answers there first, then work on Aquinas, Augustine, Duns Scotus, Adler, Aristotle, Suarez, any Encyclical by any Pope. These will not be your Mom and Dad talking.

God bless you on your journey,
jd
 
JDaniel said:
Welcome to CAF Permanent:

First of all, if you are looking for some quick and easy sound-bite answers, while you may find them herein, I doubt they will satisfy you. And, St. Thomas Aquinas is definitely not a quick fix.either! He was perhaps the most astounding philosopher that has ever lived, no matter what you may read about his work anywhere. But, it may take a lifetime of reading to get all of him.

My recommendation would be Fr. Robert Spitzer’s new book (found on amazon.com and other places and well worth the price) called, NEW PROOFS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD Contributions of Contemporary Physics and Philosophy. It’s around 300 pages - but I assure you it is no easy read. You may want to read it twice. (I am on my second reading as we speak.)

It is based upon Aquinas, to some extent, Bernard Lonergan (a more recent philosopher), a plethora of contemporary physics, and some rather impervious reasoning and logic. You may find your answers there first, then work on Aquinas, Augustine, Duns Scotus, Adler, Aristotle, Suarez, any Encyclical by any Pope. These will not be your Mom and Dad talking.

God bless you on your journey,
jd
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Thank you for the recommendations and for the well-wishes. Augustine and Aquinas might be the most helpful authors because my question is philosophical and theological, not apologetical. Is it possible for a Catholic who is re-examining the motives of his faith to still have an authentic, rational, and saving [faith] while he does so? That is a difficult question, I think.
 
Before you can say ‘whether’ you can have authentic, rational, and saving faith, you need to know what ‘authentic,’ ‘rational,’ and ‘saving’ – the descriptors – mean.

I don’t know what you mean by them. But by a common meaning ‘saving faith’ is not in your own power to have; it is in God’s power to give to you with your consent. Faith is always ‘rational’ (instead of being, eg, emotional) because it is a movement of the intellect commanded by the will, but it is never demonstrative because to demonstrate compels assent.

You might consider the distinction between faith as a belief and faith as a virtue.

I also suggest thinking about your meaning of ‘rational’: what would have to be the case for one’s faith to be considered rational?
 
PermanentMarker said:
Thank you for the recommendations and for the well-wishes. Augustine and Aquinas might be the most helpful authors because my question is philosophical and theological, not apologetical. Is it possible for a Catholic who is re-examining the motives of his faith to still have an authentic, rational, and saving [faith] while he does so? That is a difficult question, I think.
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Permanent:

I would still recommend New Proofs for the Existence of God, by Robert Spitzer, SJ. It is philosophical AND theological. Also, it may be all that you need to overcome your malaise.

RE: your question (last sentence): I have read some good answers to that question in National Catholic Register. This one, for example:

integratedcatholiclife.org/2011/09/overcoming-my-worst-spiritual-behavior/

On your journey, travel with God. Remember, it is Grace that permits you to take not only that first step, but also, each additional step.

God bless,
jd
 
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