How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?

[Tanner9188]

I’m curious as to where you think the Pope has or claims power over the souls in purgatory… 1st time I’ve ever heard of such a thing. Can you see the logic/necessity though of the idea that “nothing unclean shall enter?” (heaven). Surely that just makes sense… also how Jesus said we are to pay the last penny. IOW, even sins that are forgiven, must still be paid for, hence purgatory. For instance, even after I forgive something my children did, I may still require a consequence/punishment… How much more so that our heavenly father is just to us & that we are worthy/clean/pure nough to be in his presence. Seems intuitively obvious to me.

**
"But according to the same author the suffrages of the faithful avail at times “per modum meriti congrui” (by way of merit), at times “per modum impetrationis” (by way of supplication) at times “per modum satisfactionis” (by way of satisfaction); but when there is question of applying an indulgence to one in purgatory it is only “per modum suffragii satisfactorii” and for this reason "the pope does not absolve the soul in purgatory from the punishment due his sin, but offers to God from the treasure of the Church whatever may be necessary for the cancelling of this punishment". "
In other words, techically I am wrong, but practically I am correct. The pope cannot personally absolve, but can offer God what is necessary to absolve; since he has the needed treasure, then he practically speaking he can. It would have to be this way; otherwise the layity would be wondering why the pope doesn’t just absolve everyone, but if he did that, then purgatory would be virtually non-existent and we can’t have that. Can we?
In one sense the pope does not, but on the other hand he can offer from the treasure of the Church and cancel the punishment. This is doublespeaking IMO.**

Do the souls in purgatory pray for us?..St. Thomas (II-II.83.11) denies that the souls in purgatory pray for the living, and states they are not in a position to pray for us, rather we must make intercession for them. Despite the authority of St. Thomas, many renowned theologians hold that the souls in purgatory really pray for us, and that we may invoke their aid…There is no decision of the Church on this subject, nor have the theologians pronounced with definiteness concerning the invocation of the souls in purgatory and their intercession for the living. - Liberal translation “we will make it up as we go” IMO

 

[Tanner9188]

Yes actually I do! Not even any bingo, only a few rummage sales to raise money for the youth group, but a little beer & festivities does sound good now that you mention it!:extrahappy: So can good fellowship be an enhancer getting to heaven? I think so:thumbsup:

Only with Christ:

 

[CentralFLJames]

** I am a happy slave of Christ; I use to be a slave to sin. But in a world where Christ is insufficient; I can see where you might not realize that.
“doulos” = slave used 66 times in the NT (NRS) & 61 times in the (NASB) and is used most frequently in reference to true believers and the same Grrek term is used for servant or bond-servant.
**
Sorry Tanner - with the way you spin-scripture you are no slave to Christ. What you are is a slave to the fundamentalist ignorance that the Reformers taught you. And just what relevance does the number of times the word slaves “have” to do with anything given that the word is as often linked to hell/Sheol and given that the Hebrew word for Sheol appears 65 times for a near tie? You have some very heterodox ideas about salvation that no apostole would recognize as Christian…

Oh, didn’t anyone teach you that the slave does not remain in the Master’s house forever? And are you really sure you want to be a slave to your own sinful private interpretation of scripture Tanner?

John 8:35-36 34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35” The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.

Besides - what does any of this have to do with increasing Tanner’s chances of getting into heaven since you aren’t even a saved Catholic and off topic?

Oh - by the way if all men have sinned and lied and are corrupt can you explain how the Reformers managed to over-come their total depravity to teach you the perfect truth?
One more question: Clearly you imagine you are one of the elect - but how do you know? What if your perception of yourself is so corrupted by sin and total depravity that you are really one of those that your theology believes that God created just to condemn to hell. Are you still going to be so sure of yourself?

Are you really, really, really, truly saved bro? Are you sure?

John 3:16 - justification is ongoing, not a one-time event. God so loved (past) the world, that He gave (past) His only Son, that whoever believes (ongoing) in Him **MAY **(e.g possible but not guaranteed) have eternal life. The word “believes” is “pisteuo” in Greek which necessarily includes obedience throughout one’s life. This is proved by 1 Peter 2:7-8 which also uses “pisteuo” (to obey) and “apitheo” (to disobey). The same word “pisteuo” is used in many other verses about “believing in Christ” such as John 3:36; 5:24; Rom. 4:24; 10:9-10; cf. Rom. 1:5,16; 6:17; 16:26; 1 John 5:13 (often used by Protestants to support their “faith alone” theology). **To “believe” means to “obey” throughout one’s life; it is not a one-time acceptance of Jesus as Savior. **

Comprehensive Proof that Justification is not a one time forensic legal event:
scripturecatholic.com/justification.html#justification-IV

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Another distortion and inappropriate use of Scripture; casting lots was an OT tradition that only the Jews used to know the will of God; quite a bit different than gambling. You are so good at rationalizing the simplicity of the gospel; I’d say you could rationalize yourself to heaven as well.

I was just proving to you how easy it is to use scripture to justify anything one wants to believe. And that is what you are doing through this OP Tanner. The truth is that the apostles cast lots to decide who to ordain as the replacement apostle to Judas. And here we have a prime example too of apostolic succession on the apostolic authority alone without having a direct commandment from Jesus to replace Judas - he was appointed by the Church leadership - just like we Catholics have done for 2000 years.

You are the one gambling with your soul by following mere secular men who taught you a neo-Christianity that no apostle ever taught. I’d say that is pretty foolish to take their word on how to interpret scripture. But hey, its your soul to gamble away - just don’t cry when you are find out that you came up tails…

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

James; you are really dribbling now; do I need to bring in your own dogma and bull before your eyes.

You really don’t know what you are talking about trying to claim you understand what the Catholic Church teaches on indulgences Tanner. You are playing right into my strongest suit here (indulgences). Go ahead pull out the dogma and show me where I have it wrong and you have right. This should be rather amusing…

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

**James; your soul is in serious trouble at this point based on your theology and attitude; I invite you to know the Lord Jesus, but you must come to Him with a true heart of repentance on His terms; not yours. Look at your last sentence; neither of those are what God said. He wants you just as you are; after that He will finish the perfect work, which He starts and finishes; just as He promised. His yoke is easy and His burden is light. That does not mean you need to leave your religion; just put aside the things that keep you from Christ.

God bless you. **

Sorry Tanner, I know the Lord a lot better than you do bro. He is sickened over the corrupt teaching you are spewing in His name and wants you to stop it and start not only professing Him as Lord but also OBEYING Him as Lord. That means becoming Catholic and getting your soul healed up through sacramental confession from all your post-baptismal sins that you have never confessed and repented of. I invite you to Come to Jesus through His Church since outside of the Church there is no salvation for those who should know better and who have no excuse to be ignorant of this requirement.
He wants you to become a saint and evangelize your confused brothers that are in the same place you are currently at.

Ignatius of Antioch
**Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism , he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine , he has no part in the passion [of Christ]*. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons" (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3–4:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr
“We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason [logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason [logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason [logos] are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid” (First Apology 46 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus
“In the Church God has placed apostles, prophets, teachers, and every other working of the Spirit, of whom none of those are sharers who do not conform to the Church, but who defraud themselves of life by an evil mind and even worse way of acting. Where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; where the Spirit of God is, there is the Church and all grace” (Against Heresies 3:24:1 [A.D. 189]).

“**The spiritual man] shall also judge those who give rise to schisms, who are destitute of the love of God, and who look to their own special advantage rather than to the unity of the Church; and who for trifling reasons, or any kind of reason which occurs to them, cut in pieces and divide the great and glorious body of Christ, and so far as in them lies, destroy it—men who prate of peace while they give rise to war, and do in truth strain out a gnat, but swallow a camel. For they can bring about no ‘reformation’ **of enough importance to compensate for the evil arising from their schism. . . . True knowledge is that which consists in the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place *” (ibid., 4:33:7–8). *

James*

 

[JustaServant]

**James; your soul is in serious trouble at this point based on your theology and attitude; I invite you to know the Lord Jesus, but you must come to Him with a true heart of repentance on His terms; not yours. Look at your last sentence; neither of those are what God said. He wants you just as you are; after that He will finish the perfect work, which He starts and finishes; just as He promised. His yoke is easy and His burden is light. That does not mean you need to leave your religion; just put aside the things that keep you from Christ.

God bless you. **

First of all, the dramatic life-changing “Born Again” experiences reported by many is subjective – they vary in degree from person to person.
Secondly, these groups then take what is subjective and try to make it normative. In other words, they take these very personal encounters and insist that everyone must have a similar experience.
Lastly, these groups “re-Baptize” when they recruit ex-Catholics. This is what makes them of particular concern: they teach that the legitimate, licit, formal Baptism received by Catholics as infants into Jesus Christ is of no consequence, and must be replaced by a “Believer’s Baptism” in order for one to be able to say one is Baptized.
Catholic Baptism, on the other hand, is objective – as with all of the Sacraments, it is an act of God Himself. So whether one is an infant or an adult, one can be sure that if the right form and matter were used, one is Baptized into Jesus Christ, and has every right to the name of Christian. One can reasonably have the assurance of hope that if one obeys the commandments, loving God and loving neighbor and confessing/repenting of all mortal sin, one will be saved by Jesus Christ from judgment and hell.
It’s possible for Catholics to have the dramatic “experience” attested by many non-Catholics. But the “experience” is not equated with salvation. 2000 years of Church history is silent on that, until the last two centuries.
But the perception of non-Catholics is that these folks are “saved” by virtue of their experience, and in spite of the Church rather than through Her.
Yes, to be born of water and the spirit. That is water baptism and it is the objective action of God. Belief is initially the work of man (even though prompted by God’s Grace), Baptism is the work of God.

 

[nmc1a0]

I believe that H.S. regeneration (being born again) is instantaneous, but that the perception, realization, or recognition of that event may vary among believers, some suddenly and some progessively over time.

 

[guanophore]

Leaving out the context?? Well I will give you a hand…

Faith proves itself by works. When we are saved we will do good works as a result. God who gives us a new heart does instil this in us.
The context of James 2:24 talks about Abraham. At first glance this statement does seem to be contradicted by Paul in Romans 4:2, when he denied that Abraham was justified by works. The point is that Abraham was justified by faith in the sight of God as testified in Genesis 15:6, but he was justified by works in the sight of men (even in his own estimation) when he demonstrated the reality of his faith (Ge 22:18) in his obedience to God’s command to offer up Isaac.

This is a common Reformed interpretation of this passage. However, although it does bastion up the Reformed theology, it is not consistent with the facts. The fact is that Abraham did not take any other "men " with him up there in front of whom his faith could be “demonstrated”. Secondly, and more damning to this approach, is that God says to Abraham “Now I know…” Faith was demonstrated before God alone in Abraham’s works (Isaac probably thought his father had lost his mind) and when Abraham acted in faith, God said “Now I know”. No other people around.

Saving faith is faith that works. The two cannot be separated from one another, any more than the soul can be separated from the body, or a glove from a hand.

In the context we see that Paul is talking about two ways of salvation: One of them is by works and one by faith…

No, Janet. This is a preposterous notion. There is no such thing as “saved by works”. I think you just made that up to avoid the point of the passage.

Scripture is clear that it is impossible to be saved by works. I am shocked that you would suggest such a ridiculous idea.

If we propose we can earn salvation by the works of the law, we thereby reject the free grace of Christ, and He is not saving us (v.4) We are both saved by grace and kept by grace.

Yes, salvation is always by grace, through faith. For those under the law, and those not. But now you are contradicting yourself.

We cannot cancel the grace which gives salvation by failing to keep working for it, for works could never earn God’s grace in the first place.

This is also a common error of logic. You see, you are assuming that, because an element cannot cause an effect, that it cannot result in the loss of the effect. This is a fallacy. I will give you a more clear example. Someone shoots me in the heart with a bullet, and I die. That bullet was able to deprive me of my life, though it has no power to give or restore life. So too, does sin, have the power to kill the soul, even though it has no power to give life to the soul.

Anyway, we can’t “work for it (grace)” It is a free gift. What we do is receive it, make sure we are predisoposed to be changed by grace, through faith. As scripture states, we WORK OUT our salvation …not work FOR. The acts if righteousness that we do are those that are moved in us by grace.

I will continue once you have learned to read a passage in its context…

The context of the NT, Janet, is the Catholic Church. It was written by, for, and about Catholics. Everything in it is Catholic, and it cannot be properly understood outside the Catholic faith.

 

[guanophore]

Not just from this discussion, I am coming to the conclusion that much of RC teaching is good in theory, but fails (or differs) in reality/practice. It claims what you say above, but before the protestants got into this thread a concerned Catholic was being told what to do to get into heaven (how I would define “rest on works”). I am tempted to ask we divide debates on the RCC into discussions of Catholic Teaching and Catholic Practice (the teaching is far more convincing/compelling).

Calling devotional practices “resting on works” would be innacurrate. Nothing that we try to to to improve our sanctity (holiness) before God is of any effect unless one is in a state of grace (“saved”) or right relationship with God. In that state of being justified before God by faith, our actions can have the effect of beniffitting ourselves and others spritiually.

I do agree that there are some gaps between Teaching and Practice, but they should never be separated.

Yet the RC believes this sin removes the child of God (Christian) from God’s mercy and damns him?

No. The Catholic Church is not “Roman”. And sin does not remove anything from God except ourselves. His mercy is everlasting. We don’t have to choose to accept it. Sin results in death. The nature of sin does not change just because one recites “the sinners prayer”. It still has just as much power to separate us from God as it did before.

The Calvinist does not believe there is an act on our side (salvation is forced regardless of desire/merit). crivoice.org/tulip.html

Yes. A truly shocking heresy.

I dont have the exact quote in front of me, but Jacob Arminius said something like that if a man walks by a poor man and offers him bread and the poor man opens his hand to receive it, no one would say that the poor man’s act fed himself or that he did a work.

Good! Now maybe you can apply that to Catholics, and realize that our salvation does not “rest on works”.

Either your profession of faith is false or your sactification is slow.

Sanctification can be excruciatingly slow.

Not to be insulting, but this is a very foreign and distasteful concept to me (at its face it seems to denigrate Christ and Calvary). Is this official RC teaching?

Thanks,
Tim

Perhaps you can say some more about why you think that, or maybe you have, and I am behind in the thread?

Catholic Teaching is not “Roman”.

 

[nmc1a0]

I think we owe it ALL too Almighty God.

“For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved ([a]delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God; Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law’s demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.]”
Eph 2:8-9 (Amplified)

He gave us the grace, the salvation, and, also, even the faith. Praise be to God!!!

“Looking away [from all that will distract] to Jesus, Who is the Leader and the Source of our faith [giving the first incentive for our belief] and is also its Finisher [bringing it to maturity and perfection]. (…)”
Heb 12:2 (Amplified)

 

[guanophore]

ROFL TO ALL OF YOU! DOING GOOD WORKS WILL NOTGET YOU TO HEAVEN!

GOOD WORKS ONLY COMES WITH SALVATION!
GOOD WORKS JUST STRENGTHENS YOUR BOND WITH CHRIST…
IT DOES NOT BRING YOU TO HEAVEN…

Welcome to CAF!

The Catholic Church does not teach that we can “work” our way into heaven. You are absolutely correct that our good works will keep us closer to Christ. It is being close to Christ that gets us into heaven! This is why there is a role of good works. Eureka! I think you got it.

YOU GO TO HEAVEN!= ACCEPTING JESUS CHRIST… AFTER THAT,YOU SHOULD BE CLOSE TO HIM…

That it why you ‘should’ do good works.

Everybody was given the right to accept the gift. But people just don’t want to accept it…

I don’t really think it is a 'right" at all. It is a privilege. However, I agree everyone is afforded to it.

 

[holy_moly]

**
"But according to the same author the suffrages of the faithful avail at times “per modum meriti congrui” (by way of merit), at times “per modum impetrationis” (by way of supplication) at times “per modum satisfactionis” (by way of satisfaction); but when there is question of applying an indulgence to one in purgatory it is only “per modum suffragii satisfactorii” and for this reason "the pope does not absolve the soul in purgatory** from the punishment due his sin, but offers to God from the treasure of the Church whatever may be necessary for the cancelling of this punishment". "
In other words, techically I am wrong, but practically I am correct. The pope cannot personally absolve, but can offer God what is necessary to absolve; since he has the needed treasure, then he practically speaking he can. It would have to be this way; otherwise the layity would be wondering why the pope doesn’t just absolve everyone, but if he did that, then purgatory would be virtually non-existent and we can’t have that. Can we?
In one sense the pope does not, but on the other hand he can offer from the treasure of the Church and cancel the punishment. This is doublespeaking IMO.

Do the souls in purgatory pray for us?..St. Thomas (II-II.83.11) denies that the souls in purgatory pray for the living, and states they are not in a position to pray for us, rather we must make intercession for them. Despite the authority of St. Thomas, many renowned theologians hold that the souls in purgatory really pray for us, and that we may invoke their aid…There is no decision of the Church on this subject, nor have the theologians pronounced with definiteness concerning the invocation of the souls in purgatory and their intercession for the living. - Liberal translation “we will make it up as we go” IMO

Where is the quote from? I don’t know whether the souls in purgatory pray for us or not, but I do know that we can & should pray for them, & that they are aware of our prayers on their behalf. Nor do I believe the Pope or any other human being has control of any type over the disposition of the souls in purgatory, other than that ANY of our prayers & offered sufferings can reduce the time there.

 

[Tanner9188]

Sorry Tanner, I know the Lord a lot better than you do bro. He is sickened over the corrupt teaching you are spewing in His name and wants you to stop it and start not only professing Him as Lord but also OBEYING Him as Lord. That means becoming Catholic and getting your soul healed up through sacramental confession from all your post-baptismal sins that you have never confessed and repented of. I invite you to Come to Jesus through His Church since outside of the Church there is no salvation for those who should know better and who have no excuse to be ignorant of this requirement.
He wants you to become a saint and evangelize your confused brothers that are in the same place you are currently at.

Ignatius of Antioch
**Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism , he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine , he has no part in the passion [of Christ]**. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons" (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3–4:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr
“We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason [logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason [logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason [logos] are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid” (First Apology 46 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus
“In the Church God has placed apostles, prophets, teachers, and every other working of the Spirit, of whom none of those are sharers who do not conform to the Church, but who defraud themselves of life by an evil mind and even worse way of acting. Where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; where the Spirit of God is, there is the Church and all grace” (Against Heresies 3:24:1 [A.D. 189]).

“**The spiritual man] shall also judge those who give rise to schisms, who are destitute of the love of God, and who look to their own special advantage rather than to the unity of the Church; and who for trifling reasons, or any kind of reason which occurs to them, cut in pieces and divide the great and glorious body of Christ, and so far as in them lies, destroy it—men who prate of peace while they give rise to war, and do in truth strain out a gnat, but swallow a camel. For they can bring about no ‘reformation’ **of enough importance to compensate for the evil arising from their schism. . . . True knowledge is that which consists in the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place *” (ibid., 4:33:7–8). *

James

One thing for sure; you will know at the end and you will not be able to say you did not know the Truth. As long as you have breath; there is always a Hope waiting for you. God bless you.

 

[Tanner9188]

Where is the quote from? I don’t know whether the souls in purgatory pray for us or not, but I do know that we can & should pray for them, & that they are aware of our prayers on their behalf. Nor do I believe the Pope or any other human being has control of any type over the disposition of the souls in purgatory, other than that ANY of our prayers & offered sufferings can reduce the time there.

**Sounds like you are seeing some Light IMO. The Catholic Enclyclopedia, which I believe is www.newadvent.org

Since their is no purgatory; absent from the body present with the Lord, then it really doesn’t matter what anyone writes about an imaginary place anyway…does it?**

 

[Tanner9188]

Welcome to CAF!

The Catholic Church does not teach that we can “work” our way into heaven. You are absolutely correct that our good works will keep us closer to Christ. It is being close to Christ that gets us into heaven! This is why there is a role of good works. Eureka! I think you got it.

That it why you ‘should’ do good works.
I don’t really think it is a 'right" at all. It is a privilege. However, I agree everyone is afforded to it.

What is penance? Good works, or maybe you view it as punishment, the priest will assign to forgive a sin(s) to which they have no authority. How many “Hail Mary’s” have you had to say on orders of a priest? If you would like I’ll be glad to point the way to your own Church’s writing that clearly say you do good works to add meritorious grace. They don’t hide; why do you?

 

[Tanner9188]

I was just proving to you how easy it is to use scripture to justify anything one wants to believe. And that is what you are doing through this OP Tanner. The truth is that the apostles cast lots to decide who to ordain as the replacement apostle to Judas. And here we have a prime example too of apostolic succession on the apostolic authority alone without having a direct commandment from Jesus to replace Judas - he was appointed by the Church leadership - just like we Catholics have done for 2000 years.

You are the one gambling with your soul by following mere secular men who taught you a neo-Christianity that no apostle ever taught. I’d say that is pretty foolish to take their word on how to interpret scripture. But hey, its your soul to gamble away - just don’t cry when you are find out that you came up tails…

James

James; you don’t know what it is like to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit; I do and I thank God every single day for the privilege to serve Him. He is the One that leads each individual to God and to God’s Truth as reveled in creation and in Scripture.

I was just proving to you how easy it is to use scripture to justify anything one wants to believe.

Right

 

[Church_Militant]

James; you don’t know what it is like to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit;

Tanner, that is a judgmental remark and one that you cannot make since you do not really know James. I would apologize were I you.

I do and I thank God every single day for the privilege to serve Him. He is the One that leads each individual to God and to God’s Truth as reveled in creation and in Scripture.

Right

You assume that you are guided by the Holy Spirit Tanner and yet if I can prove that you hold to an errant doctrine that would cast that into some doubt.

 

[CentralFLJames]

One thing for sure; you will know at the end and you will not be able to say you did not know the Truth. As long as you have breath; there is always a Hope waiting for you. God bless you.

So Tanner - you mean to imply that you “just believe” more than I just believe?

So are you telling me that if a Catholic “just believes” and ends up backsliding and getting out to do some charitable works just “to be nice” and try to please God (like maybe visiting some old sick people in the hospital and praying with them) that because we exceeded the requirements of not “just” believing and doing some “works” rather than sat home and argued apologetics on the Internet we go to hell???

Or are you just saying that all Catholics go to hell because we believe in Jesus and also beleive that He holds the church sacred and the apostolic succession vital to His will? I am really confused. When does exceeding the Reformers requirement for salvation ('just believing" - sola fide) condemn somone? What’s the difference? If you as a neo-Christian “just believe” and get on with life and can be confident you are saved why are Catholics who also just “believe” in Jesus and do some extra stuff good enough for Jesus but not good enough for Tanner? You seem to have a double standard and making your own work out of condeming Catholics for believing too much of what the bible says. Is believing too much self condeming in Tanner’s theology? Is that the problem - too much work in believing in the bible and not enough believing in Jesus ???

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

**What is penance? **

You better find out since its all in the bible. Hint: It has a little something to do with that part of salvation you Reformed neo-Christians like to forget about - REPENTANCE.

Here is a thread where we talked about it: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3386497&postcount=3
Excerpts from PENANCE:

Original Here: This Rock: PENANCE
As these quotations show, the Church Fathers had a lively understanding of the role of penance in the Christian life (cf. Matt. 6:16-18, Mark 2:18-20, Acts 13:2-3, Jas. 4:8-10), an understanding we need to recover.

The Didache
“Before the baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able. Command the one who is to be baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days… [After becoming a Christian] Do not let your fasts be with the hypocrites. They fast on Monday and Thursday, but you shall fast on Wednesday and Friday” (Didache 7:1, 8:1 [A.D. 70]).

Pope Clement I
“You [Corinthians], therefore, who laid the foundation of the rebellion [in your church], submit to the presbyters and be chastened to repentance, bending your knees in a spirit of humility” (Letter to the Corinthians 57 [A.D. 80])

Video: Penance & Mortification (Guest Fr. Thomas Dubay)

There’s still time to be saved bro - if you repent and convert…

James