How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?

[JustaServant]

James; you don’t know what it is like to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit; I do…

Wow. Well, you revealed a lot about yourself with that statement alone Tanner. So, is this what you do when cornered in a debate? Make personal judgements?
You know this, how? Praytell please enlighten us all on how you know who is and who is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

 

[guanophore]

The robber at the right of Jesus, he believed before he died. and there was no time to CONFESS SINS TO AN “APOSTOLIC” PRIEST

Silly. God is not bound by confession! He can forgive whoever He wants, however He likes! This is the normative means by which He instructed that we should return to His grace.

I DID NOT say anything about God damning people… Its for us to accept the gift of eternal life or not!

Depends upon who you are reading. I just read Mick’s Calvanistic viewpoint that basically says that we don’t have a choice.

Clearly you misunderstood my words… You are fusing “wrath” into it…

The Old Testaments are all about rules…

This is a gross mischaracterization of God’s interaction with humanity as documented in the OT.

In the New Testament, it is now by the grace of the Lord. God sent his son to give us the gift of eternal life!

Do you think it was not possible for people in the OT to be saved?

Acts 13:51-14:19: While Paul was on Lystra. He was met with sacrifices. Paul says: "YOU MUST NOT WORSHIP US! WE ARE MEN JUST LIKE YOU!. But then i see many idols in Catholics churches…
What an unhealthy view of God’s teaching…

Yes, you have a very unhealhy view of God’s teaching. There are no idols in Catholic Churches. It is a violation of the first commandment to have an idol, and Catholics do not worship any but God alone.

God gave us will to either stray far from him or go with him.
To worship him or not.
To believe in him or not.

well, either we have a choice, or there is no choice. Which one to believe?
Do you not believe that unregenerated man is hostile to God, and unable to please HIm?

Remember: The Old Testament is all about God’s Rules! Which is in-
The New Testament since it is all about God’s Grace.

Your perceptions of salvation history are very warped.

The Veil before the most holiest palce in the temple has been ripped. Which means that the Son of God has given his life to pay for ALL sins of the world. The veil in the temple NO LONGER seperates man from God for Jesus has opened the way to the Father.

Yes, but not all for whom Christ paid get in the grocery bag and go with Him.

Worshipping the Pope is A wrong thing…

Very much so. If you are doing this, you better stop right away!

There is only one head of the Christian Church--Christ! It was Christ--not Paul or Apollos or Peter(who Catholics made the Pope-leader of the Church)--who died for you on the Cross.

No, UtSu, the Pope is not the head. Jesus is the Head. Jesus appointed Peter to feed and guide the flock, and when he could no longer do the job, he passed it to his successor, and so on.

You people of Rome(spiritually speaking) crucified Jesus and now you believe in him? What kind of people are you? You people act like you didn’t crucify the Son of God!

I am not sure what this means. Catholics are not “Roman” in the sense that you are using it here.

 

[guanophore]

Hi eclipse,

There is only one thing you need to do to go to heaven when you die, and that is to believe in Jesus–in who He is, and what He has done for your salvation. As simple as this sounds, it is impossible for dead fallen sinners to believe unless God supernaturally intervenes (by His grace) in their soul to make dead sinners alive by the power of His grace. Through Adam we are all born dead in sin and hostile to God, and thus, objects of His wrath. It is not by our own free will that we receive or accept the free gift of salvation, but only by the will of God, who will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. If you are interested, I can provide some bible passages that support this. May God bless you!

This is a very good summary of Calvanistic thought, Mick. Unfortunately, it has little to do with what the Apostles believed and taught.

 

[guanophore]

**
I think I’ll stay away from the works-salvation; no one ever got or will ever get to heaven on that basis;**

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

As a matter of fact, I think it is just made up by people that dont’ understand the Apostolic Faith. There really is no such thing as “works salvation”. Since it does not really exist, it is a good idea to stay away from such fanciful imaginations.

just ask the Jews of Jesus day or any period of Israel for that matter. I fully trust in Christ because He said that He is the way, the truth and the life; furthermore His yoke is easy and His burden is light.

Do you believe that the Jews thought they were saved by “works”? If so, I have a question for you. Do you believe the parents of John the Baptist were saved by “works”?

Has anyone ever examined the difference between being declared “righteous” versus “salvation”? It is very interesting and they are the positive and negative of each other.

Yes, I had to do quite a bit of this, since I was wrongly taught about the nature of salvation and about the meaning of justification

Too much work; I’m tired just looking at the list of things to do…need a break.

God does not ask us to do anything that is beyond our ability. It is He who is at work within us to will and to do His good pleasure. If it seems like a lot of “work” to you to obey His commandments, then you really are trying to do it from the flesh, rather than the Spirit. Without Him, we can do nothing. And His yoke is easy,and burden light.

 

[nmc1a0]

This apostle believed and taught it; good ol’ Paul.

God gave us the grace, the salvation, and, also, even the faith.

“For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God; Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law’s demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.]”
Eph 2:8-9 (Amplified)

“Looking away [from all that will distract] to Jesus, Who is the Leader and the Source of our faith [giving the first incentive for our belief] and is also its Finisher [bringing it to maturity and perfection]. (…)”
Heb 12:2 (Amplified)

 

[guanophore]

**
Works are what your Church; are those rituals and traditions one must do to be in “effectual good standing” with God. **

No, Tanner, you have been misinformed about the Catholic faith. There is nothing in a ritual or tradition that can place one in effectual good standing with God. Only grace, through faith, can place us in right standing before God. Sacred rituals and traditions help us to access this grace and give us a method by which our faith may be expressed.
They are not, as you seem to erroneously believe, works of the flesh or human ego.

"efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament. They bear fruit in those who receive them *with the required dispositions*." - Catechism of the Catholic Church 1131

These are requirements the Church has dictated that must be “performed” by each Catholic in order to have “saving” grace dispensed and to be effectual to the Catholic laity toward salvation.

No, Tanner, you have misunderstood again. Sacraments are means through which saving grace flows. However, one does not have to be under that glory spout. They are reliable ways of accessing grace, but God’s grace is not confined to them.

The Church does not “dictate” sacraments. They are gifts given to us by Christ. The Church preserves the form and matter as handed on to us by the Apostles, but God’s grace is not confined to them. The Catholic laity are also not dependent upon the sacraments in order to access God’s grace. I should think you, as someone who believes he has received God’s grace outside of the sacraments, would understand this!

Nothing of the sort is found in Scripture concerning salvation; it is 100% divine choice and it effect is from God through the death of Jesus.

Well, we read it differently.

Of course salvation can only be obtained by His grace.

Since a person has received this divine saving grace based on God’s effectual calling; the person’s heart for repentance, also 100% the work of God, leads this person to God. This repentance, remorse and crying our for mercy is a gift of God to the called. For no one would turn to God, if God had not first turned into them.

Latin Catholics call this “prevenient” grace. What you have said here is Catholic. You think it is not because you don’t understand what the Catholic Church teaches.

Once justified, a new nature emerges, one that has a thirst and hungriness for holiness; another gift of God.  The perseverance of the called is effected by God; another 100% divine grace bestowed upon a believer.  At the end; the glorification is also 100% divine in nature.

Although contaminated by some Calvanism, it still has many salient elements of theApostolic Faith.

The only free-will we have before a sovereign God is to rebell against Him; something that a believer will be chastened for and the unregenerate will be condemned for.

There are only two types of religion in the entire world, the religion of human achievement and the religion of divine accomplishment. I choose the religion of divine accomplishment.

It seems perhaps you erroneously believe that Catholicism is a “religion of human achievement”. It is likely that you think this because you do not understand.

Keep cooperating with saving grace and working out your own salvation with fear and trembling; I will rest on the merits of Christ; for I have none to offer.

It seems that you believe that these two are contradictory, but they are not. He is the vine, and we are the branches. Without Him, we can do nothing.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

By continuing to be a practising Catholic…just for openers.

Hi pismopal,

Where in the bible does it tell us that to be saved we must (for openers) be practicing the Catholic religion?

 

[Mick_Taylor]

The sole thing the Church does is recommend to God the treasury of the merits of the Church won by Christ and His Saints to REQUEST that God relieve a soul in purgatory from time still owed or to offset the temporal debts for forgiven sins of persons still living who are seeking the indulgence.

Hi James,

Where in the bible can we find this teaching?

 

[guanophore]

Hi pismopal,

Where in the bible does it tell us that to be saved we must (for openers) be practicing the Catholic religion?

The only Christianity in the NT is Catholic. The NT is quite clear that one must follow the teaching of the apostles, found only in the Church. Jesus makes no distinction between Himself, and His Holy Bride, the Church.

Where in the bible can we find this teaching?

Catholic Teaching does not originate in the Bible, but before the NT was written. The Apostles taught that we should pray for one another, that we may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of the righteous has great power in it’s effects.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

The sole thing the Church does is recommend to God the treasury of the merits of the Church won by Christ and His Saints to REQUEST that God relieve a soul in purgatory from time still owed or to offset the temporal debts for forgiven sins of persons still living who are seeking the indulgence.

Hi James,

Time still owed to whom? If it is owed to God, then why pretend that we may “shorten” a debt owed to God? If it isn’t owed to God, then who? If I believed the Catholic teaching about purgatory I would hardly see the wisdom in trying to get a person out of purgatory any sooner than the moment the full length of time owed had passed.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

CFJ is simply saying what St. Augustine has said … “There is no Salvation outside the Catholic Church”…

Does that mean you must convert to be saved ? I doubt it, unless you are being deliberately meanspirited and irascible. But, you need to come to terms with Catholicism, accept it as valid, stop rejecting it as being unscriptural, and learn to dialog with Catholics.

If you will do this, over time Christ may convince you to convert.

Hi brb2,

Can you tell me where in the bible we can find this teaching that, “There is no Salvation outside the Catholic Church”? I’m going to be amazed if the bible teaches that only people belonging to the ‘right religion’ are going to be saved!

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Depends upon who you are reading. I just read Mick’s Calvanistic viewpoint that basically says that we don’t have a choice.

Hi guanophore,

I have never said that we don’t have a choice. We all have choices, and we all choose, even if we choose with an unregenerate mind…with a will that is hostile to God.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Yes, you have a very unhealhy view of God’s teaching. There are no idols in Catholic Churches. It is a violation of the first commandment to have an idol, and Catholics do not worship any but God alone.

Hi guanophore,

Not every false god that is worshiped as a god (an idol) is a single visible object. It is certainly possible that some people come very close to worshiping the Catholic Church. Of course it is also possible that some people come very close to worshiping other churches as well. IMO, it is dangerous to have an inordinate desire and affection for ANY created thing.

 

[Tanner9188]

Wow. Well, you revealed a lot about yourself with that statement alone Tanner. So, is this what you do when cornered in a debate? Make personal judgements?
You know this, how? Praytell please enlighten us all on how you know who is and who is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

What have I revealed about myself? I will tell you it is easier to discern who is not a true believer, than it is to tell who is, but in the end; God will separate the tares from the wheat…right? If you can easily discern and you do not warn them, then what love is that would allow someone to burn in hell? If you are wrong, then in the end it is a mute point, but if you are correct, then the person can examine themselves and still cry out to God for mercy…right? I don’t say things like that without careful consideration. Hope you understand that as God is my witness; I do not say such things but out of love for a persons soul; it is a warning, not a condemnation, that is God’s work.

Full context of quote

Tanner9188:

James; you don’t know what it is like to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit; I do and I thank God every single day for the privilege to serve Him. He is the One that leads each individual to God and to God’s Truth as reveled in creation and in Scripture.

 

[Tanner9188]

First of all, the dramatic life-changing “Born Again” experiences reported by many is subjective – they vary in degree from person to person.
Secondly, these groups then take what is subjective and try to make it normative. In other words, they take these very personal encounters and insist that everyone must have a similar experience.
Lastly, these groups “re-Baptize” when they recruit ex-Catholics. This is what makes them of particular concern: they teach that the legitimate, licit, formal Baptism received by Catholics as infants into Jesus Christ is of no consequence, and must be replaced by a “Believer’s Baptism” in order for one to be able to say one is Baptized.
Catholic Baptism, on the other hand, is objective – as with all of the Sacraments, it is an act of God Himself. So whether one is an infant or an adult, one can be sure that if the right form and matter were used, one is Baptized into Jesus Christ, and has every right to the name of Christian. One can reasonably have the assurance of hope that if one obeys the commandments, loving God and loving neighbor and confessing/repenting of all mortal sin, one will be saved by Jesus Christ from judgment and hell.
It’s possible for Catholics to have the dramatic “experience” attested by many non-Catholics. But the “experience” is not equated with salvation. 2000 years of Church history is silent on that, until the last two centuries.
But the perception of non-Catholics is that these folks are “saved” by virtue of their experience, and in spite of the Church rather than through Her.
Yes, to be born of water and the spirit. That is water baptism and it is the objective action of God. Belief is initially the work of man (even though prompted by God’s Grace), Baptism is the work of God.

**I am of the belief that if one has the indwelling of the Spirit and the mind of Christ as the Bible speaks of; that will not and cannot go unnoticed in the spirit of a man. I know this from personal experience and a total regenerate life.

It is not to hard to discern when people cannot even get the basics of the gospel correct and believe that one cannot discern the interpretation as an individual, which this forum refers to Protestants in this way with comments like “your own interpretation”; rather if you look at the history in the Bible and look at when Paul sent His letters to the churches he asked them to read them to all the brethren and also in some cases pass it along to other churches to be read.
The implication is that he expected that they would understand the meaning of the Word that was being read. Why? Because individuals who have the resident Truth Teacher will be able to discern the Word.
In fact; that is the only way to be able to discern truth from error and on the more difficult passages; you must be all the more diligent and need godly shepherds to help discern the deeper things of God; it is a wonderful and life long experience and privilege.
Water baptism; especially that of an infant cannot remove sin; it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that is the true baptism that saves; water never saved anyone, nor does the Bible speak of removing original sin versus any other sin; sin is sin in god’s view.

Matthew 3:11 “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” (parallel passage Luke 3:16) there are 3 types of Baptism mentioned here in this one passage. Johns, spirit, and fire (judgment). But I’m almost certain you cannot see that nor understand the differences; yet it is basic to Scripture, but many don’t get it IMO and observations.**

 

[Tanner9188]

Tanner, that is a judgmental remark and one that you cannot make since you do not really know James. I would apologize were I you.
Perhaps you should let James defend himself; he is more than capable with all due respect. Second, perhaps you need to read all the posts that CFJ has posted to me and see if you find numerous accusations with the same implication. Third, I don’t put things out there without careful consideration as many do here. I said out of love as God is my witness; if i am wrong, then in the end it was a mute point, but if I discern correctly, then he can examine himself and still cry out to God for mercy…right? This is not a condemnation, but a warning; God is the one who is in charge of saving and condemnation, not me.

You assume that you are guided by the Holy Spirit Tanner and yet if I can prove that you hold to an errant doctrine that would cast that into some doubt.

**You assume that I assume; I have zero doubts and I am thankful to God for the privilege to serve and the mercy received. No man is going to have God indwell them and have the mind of Christ, as the Bible says, and the spirit of the man not know; especially if they are living for the glory of God…right?

You are mistakenly taught, IMO, that you cannot be assured of anything except some time in purgatory.

Luke 1 Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write {it} out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught.

1 Corinthians 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual {thoughts} with spiritual {words.} "

Colossians 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of your number, a bondslave of Jesus Christ, sends you his greetings, always laboring earnestly for you in his prayers, that you may stand perfect and fully assured in all the will of God.
Do you know the first will of God for people is?

1John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

These are few of the clearer passages that a basic student of the Bible can understand concerning assurance of salvation, there are many more passages in the NT and OT that are explicit and implicit. What do you say; can one be assured according to Scripture or not? What say you?**

 

[Doxiemom]

Forgive me. I did not read the 17 pages of posts but here goes…

I never understood why there is so much worry about “getting” into Heaven.

God is not up there with the catholic rule book in His Hand and looking down, gleefully trying to catch us when we break a rule or two.

What He IS doing is watching us fail. And He says, Ok, lets see what happens now. did you pick yourself up and try again ? Did you feel bad about what you did? Did you go into the world with a chip on your shoulder or go in kindness? Did you forgive the nasty stuff done to you? If you expect forgivness, then you must extend it.

Try to really examine the Lord’s Prayer each day as you say it. It has all the wisdom that we need to enter heaven. Live the Lord’s Prayer .

And when you fail, get yourself up, and start over. Sometimes, you may have to start over several times a day.

It is easy, it is rewarding, and it is what Jesus desires.

 

[Tanner9188]

So Tanner - you mean to imply that you “just believe” more than I just believe?

So are you telling me that if a Catholic “just believes” and ends up backsliding and getting out to do some charitable works just “to be nice” and try to please God (like maybe visiting some old sick people in the hospital and praying with them) that because we exceeded the requirements of not “just” believing and doing some “works” rather than sat home and argued apologetics on the Internet we go to hell???

Or are you just saying that all Catholics go to hell because we believe in Jesus and also beleive that He holds the church sacred and the apostolic succession vital to His will? I am really confused. When does exceeding the Reformers requirement for salvation ('just believing" - sola fide) condemn somone? What’s the difference? If you as a neo-Christian “just believe” and get on with life and can be confident you are saved why are Catholics who also just “believe” in Jesus and do some extra stuff good enough for Jesus but not good enough for Tanner? You seem to have a double standard and making your own work out of condeming Catholics for believing too much of what the bible says. Is believing too much self condeming in Tanner’s theology? Is that the problem - too much work in believing in the bible and not enough believing in Jesus ???

James

Sola Fide
“Easy believism” (AKA: Sola Fide) is a derogatory term used by “opponents” of the view that one needs only to believe in Jesus in order to be saved. You incorrectly conclude that those who hold to sola fide (faith alone) are saying that no corresponding need exists for a committed life of Christian discipleship as proof of salvation, but this is not true.
Those who use the term “easy believism” are confusing justification—the one-time act of being declared righteous by God—with sanctification—the lifelong process by which the justified believer is conformed to the image of Christ.
Anyone who calls salvation by faith “easy believism” misses the fact that true conversion will always result in a life long sanctification process that will be full of good works, which God prepared for His own to walk in.
I NEVER said CATHOLICS are going to HELL; that is GOD’S work. I do not expect to see anyone in Heaven that has a distorted view and belief in another gospel as the Bible teaches. That is for you to discern between what the Bible teaches and what your religion teaches; if it is in accord with Scripture, then fine, but if not, then there is another gospel.
While the security of salvation is a biblical fact based upon the finished work of salvation by Christ, it is certainly true that some of those who seemed to have “made a decision” or “accepted Christ” may not genuinely be saved. As I have stated before, true salvation is not so much our accepting Christ or knowing Christ, but whether He knows and accepts us.

 

[nmc1a0]

AMEN! I liked that:
Did you forgive the nasty stuff done to you? If you expect forgivness, then you must extend it.

Just what Jesus said after the Lord’s Prayer. One of the scariest passages in the Bible.

Mt 6:
14 For if you forgive people their trespasses [their [a]reckless and willful sins, leaving them, letting them go, and [c]giving up resentment], your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if you do not forgive others their trespasses [their reckless and willful sins, leaving them, letting them go, and giving up resentment], neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses.

 

[Tanner9188]

You better find out since its all in the bible. Hint: It has a little something to do with that part of salvation you Reformed neo-Christians like to forget about - REPENTANCE.
Here is a thread where we talked about it: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3386497&postcount=3
Video: Penance & Mortification (Guest Fr. Thomas Dubay)
There’s still time to be saved bro - if you repent and convert.…
James

**Penance is a sacrament of the New Law instituted by Christ in which forgiveness of sins committed after baptism is granted through the priest’s absolution to those who with true sorrow confess their sins and promise to satisfy for the same. - Catholic Encyclopedia

What the Bible says:
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Seems to be a little difference here; God says one thing and your Church teaches something contradictory IMO.

Have you ever confessed to a priest for forgiveness and told to do something to be absolved, like say “Hail Mary” 10 times or something similar? My Aunt talks about this type of being absolved; is she wrong?

My point is that if you are required or even asked by the priest to do something; it is works. I already know the answer to the question, but want to hear your experience.**