How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?

[brb2]

As In the Scriptures salvation is always said to be gifted “by grace” (i.e., unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor) “through faith…not as a result of works,” period (Eph. 2:8-9). Just like justification and eternal life (Rom. 3:24; 6:23). Works then follow the saved, but the works are not what saved/saves them. The theopneustos Scriptures are VERY clear on this all important point.

And Catholics believe this 100 %. You are preaching to the choir.

---

St. Augustine, on the topic of works & faith says the following …

“In many passages Paul often bears witness to this, putting the grace of faith before works, not as if he wanted to put an end to works, but so as to show that works are the consequences rather than the precedents of grace. Thus, no man is to suppose that he has received grace because he has done good works but rather that he would not have been able to do those good works if he had not, THROUGH FAITH, received grace.”

Md … do you hear Catholics ‘boasting’ of their good works ? No! … that is OLD SCHOOL understanding/myth, w/o basis in fact.

 

[CentralFLJames]

As I said, I challenge any teachings (no matter how old one might claim those teachings are) that don’t conform to the theopneustos Scriptures we both acknowledge are the written Word of God.

Sorry I did not get back sooner - been busy…

But YOU weren’t around when Jesus breathed on 11 of the original 12 Apostles (nor was Jude, Matthew, Paul, Luke, the author of Hebrews, the author of 1-3 John) . So how do you even know what is God Breathed scripture except by tradition and by the Divinely Inspired canonization of the Catholic Church? Your challenge is reckless and about things you have no personal knowledge of. Whereas the Church knows what it is talking about since it wrote and delivered scripture. Where you challenge legitimate authority I challenge all neo-Christians such as yourself for the absurdity in projecting the attitude that you have a “better” read of the Holy Spirit than the original apostles and the Catholic Church did that was 2,000 years in front of you. You really should check that arrogance in at the hat desk when you come to CAF MD.

MD, the Bible did not just materialize out of thin air – you know the true history. If the Reformers had it their way even the NT would be stripped of about 5 NT books in addition to the 7 they ripped out of the OT. The bible was written by and for Catholics and we challenge any Johnny Come Lately who imagines they can teach the teacher what it brought forth and handed down for The People of God - that is Christ’s Church - The Catholic Church. You can put whatever spin you want on it - but its not what was taught in apostolic times. You can not produce a single historical church document that proves a single Christian every taught “by faith alone”. Until you do - you are just making noise that sounds more like what we hear out of blowhards and people full of themselves looking for attention and to feel relevant.

Sure. It was handed down and preserved by the Holy Spirit in theopneustos Holy Writ so that the truth of the gospel message, which is salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone, would not be lost in the mire of the fertile imaginations of men down through the centuries. Salvation truth is a matter of divine revelation not the product of any man’s imagination - not even those who sit on thrones. In Scripture the only throne the believer is encouraged to approach is the “throne of grace” (Heb. 4:16), and that throne is not placed in a basilica in Italy.

Yes it was handed down by the apostolic succession through the Catholic Church as Jesus promised the HS would lead His Church to all truth. The Bible however does NOT teach salvation by grace through faith ALONE. I have given you direct scripture references that contradict that and you have not offered any explanation whatsoever and seem obsessed with holding to a few verses like a child holds to a pacifier or a security blanket that seem more like a fettish than it does a pillar of truth that could support your private world-view that is light-years short of the heavenly-view. The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth - not scripture. If in doubt go read scripture and it will tell you as much.

I gave you many OT examples of men who had plenty of faith in God but did NOT enter into the Promised Land. In fact the lesson of Moses himself being denied entrance for disobedience should be the proof text that tells you that no amount of faith and belief in God’s Word is going to gain one entrance into the Promised Land UNLESS that faith is taken together with obedience. But Moses was NOT obedient (ref. striking the rock with his staff rather than commanding it ORALLY). So please explain this and the entire book of James that utterly destroys a dead faith that has no works and stop the double-speak and the diversions. I’m sorry but I don’t really believe you have a fully functioning intellect when you repeatedly reject the clear evidence that contradicts you and you continue in your irrational position without explanation for how the other verses don’t apply. The only other explanation is cultish brainwashing. If the latter - who programmed you? It was not the same Holy Spirit that enlightened the apostles and The Catholic Church in writing and delivering the bible.

I know of no so-called “apostolic bishops,” now or in history. Nor do I adhere to a “do-it-yourself-salvation.” What I adhere to is a “can’t-do-it-yourself” salvation that requires of me faith in the, once for all, finished, redemptive, reconciliatory, propitiatory, expiatory, sacrificial work of Jesus Christ. And the assurance of my salvation is a vacant cross and empty tomb (Rom. 4:25 - 5:2).

On the first point - please don’t play these games MD. You have been here at CAF long enough to have seen hundreds of Early Church Father quotes that CLEARLY reference apostolic bishops in the fist and second century writings. You can correctly say “you don’t know them” only because The Church does not know you. But you can’t refute that they existed nor rationally deny that their successors still exist. On the second point as I have said previously there is absolutely NO reference in in scripture that has salvation linked to faith ALONE. By do-it-yourself-salvation you know I mean that you self-interpret your own theological beliefs from the bible in a way that deviates from what the apostles actually taught. You can’t escape the necessity of “belief” to also belive Jesus’ commandments to be obedient to Him - that is NOT BY FAITH ALONE. Some of the commandments were more than just avoidance of doing evil. Some were requirements to actually DO Things like - be charitable to fellow man and feed the hungry and tend to widows and the sick etc. You can’t have salvation without works MD. Impossible - since even “belief” is a daily work,

This sounds familiar: Matt. 21:23; Acts 4:1-7. Nothing ever really changes, does it? The religious are still asking the same question. They didn’t think some Galilean fishermen knew anything either.

I suppose you don’t notice or care that the Piscatory Ring (Ring of the Fisherman) is official regalia of the pope signifying the office’s linkage to Peter - the fisherman. Pedigree is everything MD. If it meant nothing then early Christians could have listened to any heretical teaching that sounded like it was apostolic. Would you follow Marcion if you know that you had Peter’s disciple as your teacher?

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Actually, I’m not. In the Scriptures salvation is always said to be gifted “by grace” (i.e., unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor) “through faith…not as a result of works,” period (Eph. 2:8-9). Just like justification and eternal life (Rom. 3:24; 6:23). Works then follow the saved, but the works are not what saved/saves them. The theopneustos Scriptures are VERY clear on this all important point:Acts 15:8-9 "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us (believing Jews) and them (believing Gentiles), cleansing their hearts by faith."As I said, the same is divinely revealed for the believer’s justification. The Apostolic teaching is again very clear. So simplistically clear that the “pedigreed” religious always seem to stumble over it:Rom 4:4-6 “Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:” (cf. Rom. 5:1-2; Gal. 3:23-27)

If you believe in grace alone through faith alone (what a contradiction) then why do you keep also insisting on by scripture alone??? If by grace alone - why bother to read and quote parts of the bible and exclude other parts MD??? All you are doing ad nauseum is projecting YOUR OWN WORK OF PERSONAL INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE. Every time you flap your lips in here and try to teach us you are working and trying to save by your works - but you have no evidence that you know what you are talking about and the scriptures you quote contradict you in other areas.

I agree. The Word of God is never reduced to the category of “slogans.” But there are key verses in the theopneustos, written Word of God that concisely, in-a-nut-shell, communicate the doctrine of divine salvation. Just as there are key verses in the Scriptures that reveal to us who Christ is.

The only keys are given to The Church - the Catholic Church- the pillar and foundation of all truth and which has the power to loose and bind through its ecclesial apostolic offices. That is the key you are missing MD.

But the doctrine of salvation was not left to hearsay, nor is it preserved for all generations on the hearts of men; for the simple fact that men die and are prone to err. Hence, God has given us the Scriptures through which He preserves His word in this world, and has been doing it this way ever since Moses. The Man Christ Jesus Himself appealed to them as God’s authority, as did the Apostles and the early church writers.

Yes men are prone to err - as we routinely see in you MD. But this is why the Church is here as the pillar and foundation of truth - to ask questions and seek guidance. Tell me, if men were not important why did Jesus pick 12 apostles and not just give us a bible?

Yes, I really know what faith is. And better still, I know “in Whom” I’ve believed. The work of salvation was DONE, finished, by one Man only, historically, on one cross only. And the Scriptures testify that he "who does not work, but BELIEVES in Him who justifies the ungodly, HIS FAITH (not his works) is credited as righteousness.

You believe in your self above all others MD. Your primary faith is in your own inerrancy in private interpretation - that puts everything else as subordinate to your own understanding. How many times do we have to explain that there are 2 kinds of works - works of law and works of grace and if you don’t have works of grace you have a dead faith and faith that will not permit you to enter into the promised land since that means you were not obedient.

"Faith is faith. What matters in salvation is the Object of one’s faith. Scripture is extremely clear as to the object of the faith that saves:Acts 16:30-31 "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved…"But many stumble over the stumbling block and still consider the simplicity of faith in Christ alone foolishness:1 Cor 1:23-24 “…but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”

Yes, the object of faith is Christ but yours seems to be a faith in salvation as a cracker jack prize to be won if one had the right kind of faith and “just believes”. Faith in Jesus requires both trust and obedience and that means love and a relationship. But if you sin you don’t love unless you repent and are forgiven and try-try again. Your faith is not Christ-centered. Your faith is salvation centered and therefor self-serving - a work that can not save you and dead faith if it does not serve Christ.

I am what I am (bac) by the grace of God because in Whom I’ve believed.

You just defined a cause and effect relationship that is based on YOUR own works. You sound like a Pharisee here - “God, I believe therefor YOU must let me into heaven and guarantee that I am saved before you judge me”. Sorry - it does not work this way and you are not saved if you beleive that God must declare you “saved” based on having the magic formula.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

How do Catholics know this?

Because excepting for a few others (Coptics, Orthodox etc.) it is the only Church on the planet that has been in continuous existence for 2,000 years and prevailed against ever evil and outlived its enemies and nations and empires. Because it is the only Church that still possesses the original churche buildings that go back to the early church (e.g. St. John Lateran Church in the 400 AD time frame) that we have all the historical and forensic evidence of. Because our museums and archives have all the artifacts of the early popes and even the mitres and staffs of some. And because we have the same exact apostolic faith as our forefathers and the same liturgies and prayers. No Protestant even values the original prayers of he early church for the most part - with the exception of the creed and a few others. Because we are the most hated and reviled church on the planet - which is evidence that evil men against God hate His church. Look to see who is persecuted the most - and that is the true church. Look too to the large number of saints who have miracles performed in their names almost every day somewhere in the world.

The bible tells us that He is to be worshiped in spirit and in truth. The only sacrifice that has the power to wash away your sins is Jesus, who gave Himself ONCE as sacrifice.

You are right. And this is why Catholics re-present this same one eternal sacrifice daily to God in the mass 24/7 around he world non-stop - 10’s of thousands of churches worship masses daily. How many Protestants worship more than just Sunday or perhaps on Wed during social networking and bible study and ONLY in mere prayer which is light years below that worship that is due God in the Holy Mass. Men who are in grave post-baptismal sin (fornicators, adulterers, masturbaters, spouse abusers, abortions, slanderers, etc.) can not please God through prayer - impossible. Only a soul free of grave sin can give pleasing worship to him in prayer - and only The Holy Mass made in honor of His Son’s sacrifice and representaiton of Christ’s sacrifice brings God perfect worship.

I think you are mistaken here, James. The definition of “faith” does not mean “both belief and obedience.” If it did, then the apostle James is wasting his time in James chapter two when he tells us that faith without works is dead.

That was my point - I was giving MD the benefit of the doubt to let him redefine the semantics because it is clear from reading James that faith without works and faith of grace and belief in Christ that is not an obedient faith is DEAD and as useless to gaining the Promised Land as was Moses perfect faith since his disobedience prevented him from entering the Promised Land. Faith MUST have associated good works of grace as well as be in a state free of grave sin. Sin is not forgiven by mere faith - but by faith co-joined with a repentant heart and a desire to sin no more and to be forgiven. It is an imperfect faith to come to Jesus out of fear of hell or just for “the prize” of gaining heaven. We must Come to Jesus with a heart set Him and God the Father and The Holy Spirit - all else good comes from that altruistic faith.

James, how do you interpret this verse? Is the apostle James contradicting Paul?

It’s pretty straightforward. Justification is just one aspect of salvation - an initial relational standing of “being right” with God - being His friend. But related to Justification is a process of sanctification where we are advanced in our spiritual capacity and progressed toward theosis - overcoming the human nature to take on Christ-like Divine-Human nature (that is complete at death when we “die in Him”). Even James’ verse can not be taken as the only verse relating to Justification - since we have others that tell us of the necessity for repentance and water baptism via the Trinitarian Formula. But here we can take to mean that a faith that is mere lip-service and untested and not producing “fruit” is an immature faith that is too new (a fledgling new Christian) or is a false faith that is not receptive to doing supernatural works. Grace is a gift that stirs the soul to please God by doing favors and works for God - in the same way a child wants to please its parents and do whatever it can to make daddy happy (cleaning up our room - taking out the garbage, being obedient and setting a good example when other’s are unruly etc.). God gives us this supernatural desire to do good works - it is not our own but it is a part of us and what helps bind ourselves to God. He knows that the human heart does not want to feel beholding or as a beggar. He no longer calls us slaves but friends. So he wants us to participate in our salvation and carry our smaller crosses and yoke ourselves together with Christ (who does the big work) to give us a sense of ownership in our own salvation.

James

 

[moondweller]

brb2:

moondweller:

Is the Apostolic message about a church? Is God a respecter of men?

Yes & Yes
Paul’s work was soul winning & Church building.

Nope. The answer is no and no. Peter himself answers the question for you as to God being a respecter of persons:Act 10:34 “Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons…”…in that “through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” God doesn’t recognize “pedigrees.” But in fact it’s revealed:2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, {he is} a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."Paul was planting local churches through preaching the message of Christ, but he was not building “the church.” The latter is the work Christ alone:Matt 16:18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it."And, the theopneustos Scriptures reveal that He’s building it upon the foundation of the Apostles and N.T. prophets, He Himself its cornerstone (Eph. 2:20-21).

 

[guanophore]

Define “saved.”

This is a very good question,and I think essential to the OP’s question. I would say that the OP is not well worded, as being saved has nothing to do with “chance”.

We are saved by grace, through faith, and there is no "chance’ involved at all. Basically, all one must do to be saved is to choose it, as it is a free gift of God.

Do you understand salvation to be based on not sinning?

No, we are saved by grace, this is the 'basis" of our salvation. Having said that, I will add that God intends to save us from sin, so yes, salvation does have to do with not sinning. He wants to remit the sins of our past, deliver us from them in the present, and purge us from the effects of them for eternity. In heaven, where the final part of salvation is accomplished (glorification) nothing impure is permitted. Therefore, those who have been saved, and are in heaven, do not sin.

It doesn’t matter what church they belong to. Is the Apostolic message about a church?

Among other things, yes. From God’s point of view, there is only One Body, the Church. All who are members of Him are members of His One Body, the Church. Being part of His Body is part of being saved.

Is God a respecter of men?

He prefers some people more than others.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

25:31. And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 25:32. And all nations shall be gathered together before him: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 25:33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 25:34. Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 25:35. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in: 25:36. Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 25:37. Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry and fed thee: thirsty and gave thee drink? 25:38. Or when did we see thee a stranger and took thee in? Or naked and covered thee? 25:39. Or when did we see thee sick or in prison and came to thee? 25:40. And the king answering shall say to them: **Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.**25:41. Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 25:42. **For I was hungry and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty and you gave me not to drink. 25:43. I was a stranger and you took me not in: naked and you covered me not: sick and in prison and you did not visit me. **25:44. Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to thee? 25:45. Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen: I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. 25:46. And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
Matthew 25:31-45 (Douay-Rheims-Challoner Bible)

Great passage! But it seems to be talking about sins of omission. God is HOLY. We all commit sins of omission every day. We must be found perfectly righteous to enter into heaven. No mortal sins isn’t good enough. God is HOLY.

Yes, but anyone can still reject a gift.

Jesus cannot fail to save all those that the Father has given to Him. The regeneration of the spirit causes the elect to come to Jesus willingly.

 

[moondweller]

elvisman:

moondweller:

Define “saved.”

We are saved by the blood of Christ.
As Catholics, we believe in the biblical prescription of salvation and the Scriptures tell us that we are already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), that we’re being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and that we have the hope that we will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).

You still didn’t define “saved.” You used the work in a sentence, but I asked for its definition. For instance, I’ll also use the word saved (without definition) in its various tenses in my response to you:If one is “saved” then he is not “being saved.” If one is “being saved” then he is not “saved.” If one “will be saved” then he is neither “saved” nor "being saved."But Scripture says:Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."Also:Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,…"Now, define “saved.”

The Scriptures CLEARLY tell us that salvation is a process.

Actually, it does not. It presents it as God’s GIFT; in the Greek it says: “theou to dôron,” using the word “dorean,” which means “without a cause.” That is, without cause in us. Which is certainly congruent with divine “grace” (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor) through “faith” (in the One who did the work of redemption on our behalf), and therefore “not as a result of works” on our part, but GIFTED, without cause in us, but wholly “by (His) grace through faith” in Jesus Christ alone.

When it comes to salvation Scripture is VERY clear that it’s a complete package.

But you have yet to define “saved.”

And do you understand that you still sin AFTER being born again?

I certainly do. But I’ve believed in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ and the Apostolic gospel message that…"Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,"I’ve believed the Apostolic gospel of Jesus Christ in whom I have “redemption, the forgiveness of sins” (Col. 1:14). All in conjunction with the fact that I have been saved by grace through faith.

So, again, define “saved” from a strictly Catholic perspective.

 

[moondweller]

“Believe” as in to believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, the Messiah, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world; to believe that everything He said is true, and that I cannot save myself from eternal death except through His grace.

Is believing just recognizing the fact that Jesus Christ “is Lord,” “Messiah” and the “Lamb of God?” Doesn’t believing have a personal aspect to it? I believe Elizabeth II is Queen of England, but by believing this fact does that make her my Queen? Does that make me one of her subjects? Doesn’t the theopneustos Scriptures reveal that there are great eternal, divine benefits attached to personal belief in Christ?

 

[moondweller]

brb2:

moondweller:

As In the Scriptures salvation is always said to be gifted “by grace” (i.e., unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor) “through faith…not as a result of works,” period (Eph. 2:8-9). Just like justification and eternal life (Rom. 3:24; 6:23). Works then follow the saved, but the works are not what saved/saves them. The theopneustos Scriptures are VERY clear on this all important point.

And Catholics believe this 100 %. You are preaching to the choir.

On what basis then are you now “being saved,” and on what basis “will you be saved?” Have you not said many times elsewhere that you believe your salvation rests on proving your worth (merit) as a disciple?

 

[moondweller]

moondweller:

Define saved.

This is a very good question,and I think essential to the OP’s question. I would say that the OP is not well worded, as being saved has nothing to do with “chance”.

We are saved by grace, through faith, and there is no "chance’ involved at all. Basically, all one must do to be saved is to choose it, as it is a free gift of God.

Mine was not a question but a request. Will you meet it?

 

[moondweller]

CentralFLJames:

Until you do - you are just making noise that sounds more like what we hear out of blowhards and people full of themselves looking for attention and to feel relevant.

You’re back. But I asked you to come back with some real theological substance this time. But alas, nothing’s changed. Just the same old flinging out of the insults and hypocritically stating that faith in Christ alone has no slavific value but we all need to be more like you. :frighten:

 

[nuntym]

Great passage! But it seems to be talking about sins of omission.

And just what is your definition of "good works?"All failings to do what faith demands of us are sins of ommission, just as all acts against faith are sins of commission.

God is HOLY. We all commit sins of omission every day. We must be found perfectly righteous to enter into heaven. No mortal sins isn’t good enough. God is HOLY.

So you are saying we shouldn’t even TRY to do what faith demands us? Remember that you never did challenge what I said that according to the second chapter of James that faith without obedience, without works, is a false faith. And that is contradictory to what Jesus said in Matthew 25, where it was said that the just were saved BECAUSE of their good works.

Jesus cannot fail to save all those that the Father has given to Him. The regeneration of the spirit causes the elect to come to Jesus willingly.

Even Judas Iscariot?

 

[guanophore]

 How do Catholics know this?

We have followed the Apostolic command to hold on to the faith that was handed down to us from the Apostles.

The bible tells us that He is to be worshiped in spirit and in truth. The only sacrifice that has the power to wash away your sins is Jesus, who gave Himself ONCE as sacrifice.

And this is exactly what we celebrate daily in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, or Divine Liturgy. This is our most perfect worship.

I think you are mistaken here, James. The definition of “faith” does not mean “both belief and obedience.” If it did, then the apostle James is wasting his time in James chapter two when he tells us that faith without works is dead.

You are misunderstanding, Mick. saving faith is obedient faith. There is no way for the glove to move and do anything unless the hand is inside it, moving it.

James, how do you interpret this verse? Is the apostle James contradicting Paul?

No, but maybe contradicting your perceptions.

 

[guanophore]

Quick question though: In the section marked “Biblical Message on Justification,” is that the Roman Catholic view? I know that–in point 11–I have a problem with the statement that justification “occurs in the reception of the Holy Spirit in baptism.” I’m not really sure what the Lutheran view is, but this Anabaptist sees baptism as an external symbol of the inner response of faith that has already brought justification and life to the believing sinner.

The Apostles taught that we are justified and born again in baptism.

The concept that developed in recent centuries of “believers baptism” or the “external symbol” is a quite modern innovation that will not be found in scripture, or the history of the Church.

This is one of the areas where modern day Protestants have departed from Apostolic Teaching.

Perhaps I’m reading the statement wrong and they mean that at the moment of faith, we are baptized by the Holy Spirit, which is our placement into the body of Christ. Maybe they emphasizing that justification and our placement int he body of Christ are simultaneous.

The Apostles taught that immersion and sealing of the HS happens under the water.

 

[nuntym]

Is believing just recognizing the fact that Jesus Christ “is Lord,” “Messiah” and the “Lamb of God?” Doesn’t believing have a personal aspect to it? I believe Elizabeth II is Queen of England, but by believing this fact does that make her my Queen? Does that make me one of her subjects? Doesn’t the theopneustos Scriptures reveal that there are great eternal, divine benefits attached to personal belief in Christ?

As in believing that the Lord Jesus Christ is my personal Lord and Savior? OK, my bad.

So again, can a believer like that who still sins, wouldn’t he/she considered lawless?

 

[elvisman]

You still didn’t define “saved.” You used the work in a sentence, but I asked for its definition. For instance, I’ll also use the word saved (without definition) in its various tenses in my response to you:If one is “saved” then he is not “being saved.” If one is “being saved” then he is not “saved.” If one “will be saved” then he is neither “saved” nor “being saved.”
But Scripture says:Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
Also:Titus 3:5 “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,…”
Now, define "saved."Actually, it does not. It presents it as God’s GIFT; in the Greek it says: “theou to dôron,” using the word “dorean,” which means “without a cause.” That is, without cause in us. Which is certainly congruent with divine “grace” (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor) through “faith” (in the One who did the work of redemption on our behalf), and therefore “not as a result of works” on our part, but GIFTED, without cause in us, but wholly “by (His) grace through faith” in Jesus Christ alone.

When it comes to salvation Scripture is VERY clear that it’s a complete package.

But you have yet to define "saved."I certainly do. But I’ve believed in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ and the Apostolic gospel message that…"Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”
I’ve believed the Apostolic gospel of Jesus Christ in whom I have “redemption, the forgiveness of sins” (Col. 1:14). All in conjunction with the fact that I have been saved by grace through faith.

So, again, define “saved” from a strictly Catholic perspective.

Wrong again, my friend.
**Salvation is CLEARLY a process and I proved it to you using the Scriptures and Acts 2:24 is further proof. All of the scriptures you provided are in perfect harmony with the biblical idea that this is so.
We are not saved until we have finished the race (2 Timothy 4:7).
Whereas we have the chance of salvation because we are redeemed by what Christ did on the cross, but we are not fully saved until we die.

**You seem to think that no matter how grave the sin committed by the believer, it’s just fine with God. That is NOT what the Bible says *(**Romans 11:22, Hebrews 10:26-27, ***2 Peter 2:26-27, Matt. 7:21, 1 Cor. 9:27,1 Cor. 4:4, Matt. 24:13).

If a doctor tells an alcoholic that if he stops drinking now, he won’t suffer the affects of cirrhosis, then that pretty much goes without saying. Similarly, the Bible says we ARE saved - provided we endure to the end and pick up our cross daily. It also speaks to the necessity of Baptism (1 Pet. 3:21, Acts 2:38). Salvation is 100% through the Grace of God - but we can accept or refuse that gift.

Faith isn’t just “believing” - it is total surrender to God and his teachings. James 2:19 tells us that "even the demons believe and tremble."

NOWHERE in scripture is the phrase, “faith alone” found - except for James 2:24 where he emphatically states: “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Again - you have yet to show me that salvation is a slam-dunk, 1-time event.

If this isn’t what you believe - then what is YOUR definition of “saved”.

 

[moondweller]

As in believing that the Lord Jesus Christ is my personal Lord and Savior? OK, my bad.

So again, can a believer like that who still sins, wouldn’t he/she considered lawless?

The question is, would he/she be a true believer? Wouldn’t such perpetual behavior reveal his/her true status?

The Scriptures reveal that the true believer has died TO sin, once for all, with Christ. Paul is addressing the true believer when he asks the following two questions:Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

What you describe is a religious unbeliever who has a mere “said” faith. James addresses this kind of man in his second chapter (vv., 2,14).

In Catholicism sin is always the front issue, from its sacraments to its purgatory. But for the true believer who knows he has “died to sin” with Christ, sin is not the prevailing issue, but walking by faith in his Lord is. In Catholicism striving to die in a “state of grace” is the hope for being accepted by God and entering heaven. But for the Biblical believer, born again by the Spirit, his salvation according to divine grace is an ever present reality, having been saved from his sins, once for all, through the selfless one time, historical, sacrificial act of God’s Sin-bearer who took away his sins by the sacrifice of Himself. Writing to believers John says:1 John 3:5 "You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin."The true believer knows he’s now “in Him,” in Christ Jesus, made righteous (Rom. 5:19).

In historic, Apostolic Christianity sin is not the issue. The sin issue was dealt with, once for all, by the Lamb of God. To recognize this is true faith in what God has revealed concerning His Son. This is what it means to believe in Christ. What He has DONE, once for all, on our behalf. This is the faith by which God Himself saves those who believe, “by grace.” Jesus Himself said:John 3:14-18 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up (the cross on which He bore our sins as a substitutionary sacrifice); so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."And again:John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."The true believer believes Him who sent Christ and knows he HAS eternal life.

To answer the OP’s question: Heaven is not left to chance. Hence, “chance” cannot be increased. God Himself has provided the way through a Man.

 

[moondweller]

Wrong again, my friend.
Salvation is CLEARLY a process and I proved it to you using the Scriptures and Acts 2:24 is further proof. All of the scriptures you provided are in *perfect *harmony with the biblical idea that this is so.
We are not saved until we have finished the race (2 Timothy 4:7).
Whereas we have the chance of salvation because we are redeemed by what Christ did on the cross, but we are not fully saved until we die.

But again you have evaded my request for you to define “saved” from a Catholic perspective.

 

[CentralFLJames]

You’re back. But I asked you to come back with some real theological substance this time. But alas, nothing’s changed. Just the same old flinging out of the insults and hypocritically stating that faith in Christ alone has no slavific value but we all need to be more like you. :frighten:

Just another typical evasion by MD and I consider it a calumny to claim anyone needs to be liked me - you won’t find a single post of mine holding myself up as a standard. Dude you are empty suit – you make a lot of noise and you make a lot of demands in our forum but you never answer the mail on what we give you. Are you too lazy to do the work of giving us real answers to our questions? How long are you going to evade?

You speak about theology but you can’t even stay on the bubble on the more fundamental questions and logic nor answer-the-mail long enough to get there. MD, we can’t get to deep theology until you can learn to answer simple questions and agree on fundamentals - yes means yes and no mean no etc… I took good time to give you 2 full posts to address your issues (12,000 words) and rebutted them and gave you back many questions and comments that you just ignored. Here is an extract of a few of my prior questions that you tried to duck out on - try to answer them.

Q1: How do you even know what is God Breathed scripture except by tradition and by the Divinely Inspired canonization of the Catholic Church?

Q2; Can YOU produce a single historical church document that proves a single Christian leader in the early Christian Church ever taught “by faith alone” (sola fide) (you can’t use the bible and your own private interpretation).

Q3: I gave you many OT examples of men who had plenty of faith in God but did NOT enter into the Promised Land. In fact the lesson of Moses himself being denied entrance for disobedience should be the proof text that tells you that no amount of faith and belief in God’s Word is going to gain one entrance into the Promised Land UNLESS that faith is taken together with obedience. But Moses was NOT obedient (ref. striking the rock with his staff rather than commanding it ORALLY). So, given this background, if you can, please explain sola fide and how it stands up - esp. with respect to James writings about dead faith without works.

Q4: You commented about not knowing of an apostolic successor but I told you there are many ECFs who explicitly write about the Bishops as “where the Church is”. Can you contradict the ECF’s writings?

Q5: If you believe in grace alone through faith alone (a contradiction) then why do you keep also insisting on sola scriptura by scripture alone??? How many “alones” does salvation really take?

Q6: Referencing Q5, if by grace alone - why bother to read and quote parts of the bible and exclude other parts MD? Why bother even reading scripture if we are slaves to grace? What good is scripture if all we need is grace?

Q7: If it’s by grace alone then why did Jesus pick 12 apostles and why didn’t he just beam us all up to heaven or write us His bible himself?

James